Prog Attack IV is ready.

[Davey]

Actually, that article isn't that helpful. We're given two opinions.

Actually, I thought that's why it is helpful. It seemed as though some in this thread were only viewing the situation from one perspective when there are clearly two sides.

[BarryL]

Actually, I thought that's why it is helpful. It seemed as though some in this thread were only viewing the situation from one perspective when there are clearly two sides.

Yeah. Helpful to know there are two sides, which suggests caution, especially for those who think caution is not required. Not helpful in that it doesn't provide guidance.

But thanks for the reference. I don't know how you did that so quickly.

[N. Abstentia]

You do realize that what you are doing is illegal?

Don't worry, I called the police! You're all safe now, go back to what you were doing. The threat is over.

[Finch Platte]

It's no different than mix tapes that people have been making for decades.

Tapes sound like caca to begin with, then when you start making copies, they sound even worse.

If you make a copy after copy after copy of a disc, well, you know what that sounds like.

fp <--- thinking: how many CDs have I bought cuz of comps I got in here??

[Crux]

By the way, welcome to our community of music lovers.

Given that your first four posts are about the illegality of comp trading and being sued by record companies, are you in any way connected to, or have professional relationships with, any record companies or law firms currently doing work for record companies?

I'm just curious about your motivation, given that you could have posted about anything music related.

I'm a software developer and a musician and I'm very sensitive to piracy and have spent a lot of time researching it. I'm a huge fan of progrock and I do everything I can to spread the word, and try to keep things legal. I found a new site recently for electronic distribution www.mindawn.com and while it isn't fully online yet, when it is their site is supposed to allow you to play any song 3 times for free as a demo, which is another way to sample music in addition to my previously mentioned point about internet radio.

I know Clive Nolan and I know he would absolutely pop a cork to find out an Arena track is on this compilation and being passed around. I'm afraid no one here is really looking at the bigger picture, and that is what happens after you hand out that initial copy, when they tell two friends, who tell two friends and now suddenly there are hundreds of illegal copies and the musician has never been compensated for their material that they spent hard time and money to write, record and release. Keep that in mind next time you think it's fine to hand it around.

[Troy]

I know Clive Nolan and I know he would absolutely pop a cork to find out an Arena track is on this compilation and being passed around. I'm afraid no one here is really looking at the bigger picture, and that is what happens after you hand out that initial copy, when they tell two friends, who tell two friends and now suddenly there are hundreds of illegal copies and the musician has never been compensated for their material that they spent hard time and money to write, record and release. Keep that in mind next time you think it's fine to hand it around.

Hey Crux-

I'm a photographer, illustrator and writer. I've experienced theft of intellectual property first hand. This is different. CD comping IS no different than making mix cassettes in the 80s.

Tell Clive that there's people hearing one of his songs who wouldn't otherwise hear it. Some of them that liked the songs went out and bought an Arena CD of his because of it. Clive should LOVE what we're doing.

Hell, if you can even FIND an Arena CD in a store, why would I buy it for $18 without trying it? I'm way too old and wizened (been burned too many times) for that sorta behavior.

It should be considered ADVERTISING. FREE advertising. And 20 years ago it would have been. I guess the world has changed and now everybody is struggling to make it in a world with extremely tight profit margins.

I just don't see how a song on a comp mix by way of introduction to an unknown new artist is taking food off that guy's table. You can say that there are multiple generations of duping songs (2 friends begets 4 friends begets 8 and so on), but that is not what goes on with these comps. The comps go out and are nopt re-reproduced. You are thinking in a very pessimistic manner.

This attitude of not allowing us to share music we buy with our friends (so that they may brought into the fold and buy it too) cuts your nose to spite your face, dig?

You wanna get pissed at someone for theft of intellectual property? Go after the piracy in Asia of EVERYTHING. Go after the people CHARGING for dupes of stolen material. That's where the real problem is.

[Troy]

Yeah. Helpful to know there are two sides, which suggests caution, especially for those who think caution is not required.

Even if it IS illegal, there's no PROOF that music actually changed hands. It's all just talk.

[Crux]

Even if it IS illegal, there's no PROOF that music actually changed hands. It's all just talk.

Let me see if I can put this in terms that make sense. The discussion has already occured on here for the offer and acceptance of this media. How hard do you think it is to track down the people who accepted it and have a search warrant issued if the RIAA wants to do it? There is enough evidence here to provide probably cause. Do you really want to go through that anal exam? What your saying is just ignorant and delusional. There is an amazing degree of self-justification going on with most of these reponses, it's really stunning to me.

[Troy]

Let me see if I can put this in terms that make sense. The discussion has already occured on here for the offer and acceptance of this media. How hard do you think it is to track down the people who accepted it and have a search warrant issued if the RIAA wants to do it? There is enough evidence here to provide probably cause. Do you really want to go through that anal exam? What your saying is just ignorant and delusional. There is an amazing degree of self-justification going on with most of these reponses, it's really stunning to me.

Well, unlike open internet file transfer which can be kept track of with invasive spyware by interested third parties, the mail service is still private and not subject to inspection by private parties.

The people talking about trading comps on this site- it's just hearsay. There's NO way to concretely prove that anything actually changed hands.

People have been trading music like this since the 60s. The RIAA has never tried to stop it in the past. They don't have a case and they know it.

Rather than beating this dead horse, try and beat some of the ones in my previous post about the ethics of doing this instead.

[Finch Platte]

You do realize that what you are doing is illegal?

I'd say 90% of the comps I've made are primarily composed of tracks I've gotten off of free compilations I've gotten at record stores.

Yeah, we can argue all we want for our case(s), but it's pretty much been proven that record companies don't see it our way- they see it in a way that really doesn't work.

fp

[Crux]

so Troy, I'm trying to distill down what you're saying, and this is what I figured out:

1. You don't think what you're doing is illegal
2. Even if it is illegal, no one can catch you and prove you did it.

That's a very nuanced set of principles you seem to have.

[Slosh]

That's a very nuanced set of principles you seem to have.

Go fuck yourself, troll. Nuanced enough for you?

[kexodusc]

At the risk of buying contraband (though I do live in Canada now and from what I've read, should be protected by the laws here), what have I got to do to obtain your intriguing comp?

[BarryL]

Go fuck yourself, troll. Nuanced enough for you?

You can be rude in a much more polite manner.

I think Clive Nolan is an outstanding musician and has done wonders for the resurgence of progressive rock music. I also am a musician and believe strongly in intellectual property rights. In fact, I issued a brief to the performing rights organization in Canada about 15 years ago - it was then called PROCAN, now SOCAN - not to go forward with the tax on blank cassettes to be paid as royalties to musicians. Why? Because it legitimizes copying. The went ahead and did it. Maybe they were more prophetic than I was, because copying has taken off. But now they are in the postion of trying to eat their cake and have it to. They still collect the royalties, and now want all computer buyers to pay a royalty on computer hard drives to compensate them for their perceived loss of royalties.

But I still stand by my contention that you can't charge me for the right to reproduce and then criticize me for reproducing. I have paid for that right. So in Canada, at least, I can reproduce for non-commercial purposes with the full moral sanction of the Canadian performing rights society and the Canadian Government.

As for Troy's post, I agree that technology is out of sync with the business model the record companies are still trying to operate to. People understand that artists don't get paid when their work is copied, and in spite of what the RIAA wants to claim, most people who hear copied work wouldn't want to buy those albums anyway. Most mainstream albums have one or two good songs and the rest is crap. Frankly, there is an oversupply of mediocre music, which drives down the value. IMO, the big record companies and the radio stations have created this problem, and now they want to legislate guaranteed profits. That's B.S. Steve Jobs was genius enough to see the future and take a chance, and it has paid off well for Apple. That is to allow people to pay for just the music they actually want. That way you can get those two great songs for $2.00 rather than $15.

Now, you might think that that is going to hurt artists. Yeah, it will hurt those who sell primarily on hype. But an artist now has global distribution and can make a lot more money if consumers really like that artists work. The record companies are screwed though, because they no longer offer a valuable service. Look at prog bands. They are almost all on independent labels, recorded in home or small studios, and they manage to eek out a living. With the Internet, life for these fringe artists will only get better. For one thing, they have complete control of their own artistic and business destiny.

In the business world, many businesses no longer file for patents because it doesn't really protect them, and they have to disclose their new ideas ahead of time. The world is changing, whether we like it or not. I agree with Crux that we need to consider that when we copy, artists don't get paid. But artists and RIAA need to understand what is really going on with copying and whether it helps them or hurts them in the long run. Also, let's be clear that the RIAA represents big music companies, not musicians directly.

Artists will benefit from downloading, IMO (there won't be any other way to buy music in ten years), but record companies will not. At least not the big crybabies of today. I don't know what Virgin is doing in the U.K., but at least someone like Branson has the balls to do it differently and change the model if he wants to.

[kexodusc]

Go fuck yourself, troll. Nuanced enough for you?

ROLMAO...Slosh, buddy...stop, you're killing me!!! You're not one to pull moral punches, are you???
If we ever meet...I owe you a beer!!!

P.S. Kexodusc neither endorses nor condones any of the preceeding comments of this thread.

[BarryL]

You've made a bold assertion that comp trading for non-commercial purposes among friends is illegal. I've gone way out of my way, during my work hours, to present an argument using the RIAA's own documents to support my case.

All you've done is make an assertion that it is illegal, and made implicit threats that people who send selelctions of songs from their own collections to others are at risk of a law suit. Just because the RIAA says so, doesn't make it so. Have they won any cases against one-off comp traders? On what grounds is exchanging of comps illegal? That New York Times article doesn't cite anyone being charged or prosecuted, and in the article he describes comp pyramid trading schemes where hundreds of CDs are sent out to hundreds of people at a time.

There's no evidence that I know of that making a recording of music which you have purchased for someone else is illegal. I contend that in Canada it is legal.

(I am not a lawyer and am not offering legal advice. This is only my opinion.)

[Jim Clark]

When I logged on to my Brother In Law's pc this morning I was floored by all the requests for this prog comp. Two pages already!! Guess not exactly what I was thinking. Hey Crux, what's up wit choo? See your point but the way the matter was explained to me, the comps, created and distributed among friends is a grey area at best. And this is by a copyright attorney so it's not just idle internet musing.

I've waited for a response to Troy's suggestion that your bud should be grateful for the exposure, that does in fact lead to sales of his CD's that would have never happened otherwise. I don't think that this is an empty argument, simply compare the national avg of CDs per capita to the number on this board. This board is about spreading the word about great music and spends the dough backing it up. If a track is used in the creation of a comp to create buzz among friends, and friends is an important word here, I'd think someone might be happy for the free publicity. You say he'd pop a cork. Doesn't really seem like a wise choice to me but it's his choice to make. I'm wondering how many people you've turned off to Arena at this point? I can think of one but in fairness it's probably not something I'd like anyway.

jc

[Troy]

so Troy, I'm trying to distill down what you're saying, and this is what I figured out:

1. You don't think what you're doing is illegal
2. Even if it is illegal, no one can catch you and prove you did it.

That's a very nuanced set of principles you seem to have.

Well, if that's what you got, then that's what you got. There's a lot more that you chose to miss.

Do us a favor and get Clive Nolan to come and read my post and lets see what HE has to say for himself. How else are people gonna even know his band EXISTS? The radio? Please.

Again, you choose to NOT discuss any of the comments made in my Nov 24-4:51PM post. Nothing to say about my logic? No substantiated argument? Ahhhh well. Your loss.

Go fuck yourself, troll. Nuanced enough for you?

Classic. Thanks Sloshy.

[N. Abstentia]

Who is Clive Nolan? Never heard of the guy. Is he a musician?

I share this question with probably 95% of the people on this board. But if I get a comp, then I'll get to hear his music. If I like that ONE song I hear, I'll buy a CD. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

You think Clive would 'pop a cork' now?

I think Clive would 'pop a cork' if he knew you were speaking for him in a public forum.

I know Clive Nolan and I know he would absolutely pop a cork to find out an Arena track is on this compilation and being passed around. I'm afraid no one here is really looking at the bigger picture, and that is what happens after you hand out that initial copy, when they tell two friends, who tell two friends and now suddenly there are hundreds of illegal copies and the musician has never been compensated for their material that they spent hard time and money to write, record and release. Keep that in mind next time you think it's fine to hand it around.

[kexodusc]

I think Clive Nolan busks the tables at a dive in Philly? Seem to recall he had a little band or something his boss let play on Wednesday nights.

Whoever he is he should be thanking people like the folks here for promoting his music free of charge so he can quit selling CD's out of the back of his mom's mini-van.

[DarrenH]

Who is Clive Nolan? Never heard of the guy. Is he a musician?

I share this question with probably 95% of the people on this board. But if I get a comp, then I'll get to hear his music. If I like that ONE song I hear, I'll buy a CD. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

Clive Nolan was once the keyboard player for Pendragon and is one of the founding members of Arena. The other being Mick Pointer, the former drummer of Marillion. Arena are relatively unknown in the US despite releasing 8 albums with their first, Songs From The Lions Cage, in 1995.

And if it weren't for comps I received from folks here, I never would've known who Arena was. Now I own 5 full length albums and the follow-up ep's to Contagion.

Arena is just one example. I can think of dozens more where a song on a comp has introduced me to a new band which then led to a CD purchase.

Darren

[kexodusc]

Nolan was the keyboardist from Pendragon??? Oh man, I think I might have actually shaken this guy's hand!!!

That brings up another point, I find it even funnier when musicians with less than stellar criminal records and respect for existing drug laws etc start citing the copyright laws as gospel.

Convenient morality?

[Slosh]

Okay, so my other reply was inappropriate for this forum. So be it. Apparently others had the same reaction.

I, me personally, know that I've generated hundreds (and perhaps thousands) of dollars of album sales via my compilations. The type of music I prefer typically translates to about twenty songs per comp. Let's say at a median price of $13.50 per album I'm already getting close to $200 for one comp. Not to mention the many thousands of dollars I've spent on my audio systems, the thousands of dollars I've spent on my computer, the cost of blank media, jewel boxes, padded mailers, postage, printing supplies, and most importantly, my time and effort. And for what? A sense of satifaction in knowing that in some small measure I spread a brief bit of bliss to a few people I'll likely never meet (some of which are literally half a world away) , and a chance that others may do the same for me one day. And the same can be said of every person here that makes compilations for others to enjoy. And BTW, the regulars here really aren't comp traders per se. In the four years or so that I've been coming here I've never once seen anyone turn away someone because they couldn't reciprocate.

My question for you, Crux, is what have you done to aid your favorite little-known artists? My guess is not much, if anything.

If you don't question and challenge laws, well, you get what you deserve.

[audiobill]

Go fuck yourself, troll. Nuanced enough for you?

Slosh: You are my God. It needed to be said.

I, too, owe you a beer.

What a tool of a troll.

Cheers,
Bill

[jack70]

Okay, so my other reply was inappropriate for this forum. So be it. Apparently others had the same reaction....

And BTW, the regulars here really aren't comp traders per se....

...My question for you, Crux, is what have you done to aid your favorite little-known artists? My guess is not much, if anything.

Well said Sloshy. You pretty much covered it all for 99% of the people here. The fact that this board is mostly people who do purchase MUCH MORE music than your average consumer ought to make Crux pay closer attention.

Even if it IS illegal, there's no PROOF that music actually changed hands. It's all just talk.

What your saying is just ignorant and delusional. There is an amazing degree of self-justification going on with most of these reponses, it's really stunning to me

He's just jivin with ya (or mocking ya)... lighten up. Jeez.

Crux, you simply don't understand the dynamic here. Trading comps is NO DIFFERENT than listening to the radio. In fact it offers an even better return ($) for an artist because there's a much better time/cost/benefit ratio with such sampler CDs compared to radio. I've never listened to internet radio, nor do I intend to. I don't have the time, and they simply don't cater to my tastes. On the other hand I buy a LOT more CDs than the average person, and I buy many after hearing artists on comps... personal mix comps, and comps you see in all the mags. BTW, why on earth do you think SO MANY artists (try to) put their wares in such music-mag Comps? It's to get their wares heard!! That's all they (artists really) want... a free hearing by the public. And that's all a comp does. It's pretty simple.

So I totally agree with Troy here.. comp-trading is... in effect... FREE ADVERTISING. Piracy is piracy, but when Free advertising becomes piracy, we're getting into an Orwellian twisting of reality. You wanna guess how much it's cost me in time, effort and money for the comps I've sent out... with absolutely nothing asked or expected in return? Hell, I outta be suing some of those artists for all that "advertising" work! BTW, my last comp was nearly ALL LP cuts... it's material simply NOT available anywhere, and most of it NEVER will be.

The folks trading music on P2P systems are not making money and they are being pursued and fined in droves by the RIAA.

That's clearly piracy (of a sort), and illegal. Sampling a cut on the radio... or on a web page... or on a comp, is NOT the same thing. If you don't understand that point, you're dumber than a rock.

As Barry kinda alludes to in the lawyerish mumbo-jumbo (heh heh).... is it OK for me to make a cassette tape of some various music I paid for, and let someone else (who hasn't paid for it) listen to it? Or are they "ethically" in the wrong in your warped view? Listening to cuts on Comps is no different. Let's have some stinkin common sense here. Stealing is stealing. Listening to new music... is listening to new music. Listening to new music... results in BUYING more new music. Buying more music... is good for the artist. It's really not that complicated.

I'll also add one basic economic truth that's (partially) at the root of this whole stinkin "problem". (it's been debated here before). It's a basic misunderstanding (by big corporations and their minion lawyers) of the underlying aspect of the true "worth" of a good... of it's being "priced" too much higher than it's "cost". Commerce (in the music industry) has not yet changed in response to the changes in technology. To paraphrase economist Tom Sowell: Asking (lawyers) where wages and prices come from is like asking six-year-olds where babies come from. Quite simply, most people will not continually overpay for a "good" they don't need (unlike essentials like food).

Personal computers for example, even though they are much better than just 10 years ago, are cheaper in price. If a PC was "artificially priced" at say $20K, how many people would bother to keep buying them? Answer: Only a slowly dwinding number (of elites). Crux, this board is such an elite. And you've got everything... completely ass-backwards.