An open letter to Ericl

[ForeverAutumn]

I tried to send the attached to Eric as a PM. But his mailbox is full. So, I have decided to post it here instead.


C'mon Eric...What's with moving my post on car systems? It wasn't even really off topic! We've been way more off topic than that and been left alone. Isn't it bad enough that the support that you receive on the Rave Recs board has dwindled significantly, down to a scarce few regulars in fact, over the last year or two? Are you intent on now losing the few that still support your site?

When Terrence moved posts last year and everyone freaked out (me included) I did end up, sort of, understanding the point that you were trying to make about supporting ALL of the forums. However, RR is more than a forum, it's a community. It's a community that is already in a very precarious situation and that doing silly things like relocating relevant posts (and even irrelevant posts) will destroy.

Please don't destroy the Rave Wrecks community. Some of us really like it there.

[Jim Clark]

Ditto! And not just to pump up my post count that's suffered over the past few months!

jc

[Geoffcin]

I tried to send the attached to Eric as a PM. But his mailbox is full. So, I have decided to post it here instead.


C'mon Eric...What's with moving my post on car systems? It wasn't even really off topic! We've been way more off topic than that and been left alone. Isn't it bad enough that the support that you receive on the Rave Recs board has dwindled significantly, down to a scarce few regulars in fact, over the last year or two? Are you intent on now losing the few that still support your site?

When Terrence moved posts last year and everyone freaked out (me included) I did end up, sort of, understanding the point that you were trying to make about supporting ALL of the forums. However, RR is more than a forum, it's a community. It's a community that is already in a very precarious situation and that doing silly things like relocating relevant posts (and even irrelevant posts) will destroy.

Please don't destroy the Rave Wrecks community. Some of us really like it there.

Your wish is my command;

[kexodusc]

I know at least 2 of the moderators mean well...Geoffcin's and Sir T are good people, just trying to keep things sorted out. But yeah, there should really be a different set of governing rules for the film and rave-recs boards...good people there and far fewer flame wars than the other forums.
Rave Recs has exposed me to some great new music over the last year or so...a few comps from people I've never met, no questions asked...can't beat that!!!
It'd be a shame to lose this asset by not allowing the off-topic threads in that forum so the "regulars" can find them easy enough....

Just my .02 cents...we've got bigger fish to fry here.

[Finch Platte]

Your wish is my command;

What does that mean?

fp

[Geoffcin]

What does that mean?

fp

Enjoy your clique-only forum.

[Slosh]

What a bunch of babies

[kexodusc]

Thanks Geoffcin...drop by and feel free to contribute...there's a serious lack of classical music/blues talk there, not sure if those are your thing or not - I hope it is..

[Finch Platte]

What a bunch of babies

Us, or the mods?

fp

[Finch Platte]

Enjoy your clique-only forum.

What does that mean?

fp

[Slosh]

Us, or the mods?

fp

Everyone but me!

[Finch Platte]

Everyone but me!

Well, you are old.

fp

[ForeverAutumn]

Enjoy your clique-only forum.

RR is not a clique-only forum. We welcome new members and encourage them to contribute. If some of us have been around for a while and have become friendly that doesn't make us a clique. As I stated earlier, I believe that makes us a community. An open community who warmly welcome people to join in. You included. Please feel free to join in the fun.

Now, regarding your comment that I didn't have to go over your head. That was not my intent. I didn't know who moved my post since it was moved without comment. I went to Eric simply because I didn't really want to start the same sort of flame war that went on when Terrence moved posts and some harsh words were exchanged and feelings hurt. I was trying to avoid that from happening again.

If I had wanted my post in the General Forum then I would have posted it there in the first place.

[ForeverAutumn]

Geoffcin, here's an idea. If you thought that some of the posts here were humorous and would be appreciated in the General Forum, why not leave the post where it was originally put but post a link to it on the General Forum. That way no-one is upset by a moved post; the people that the poster intended it for can still have easy access to it; and the people that you think would also enjoy it can find it.

Seems like a win-win to me.

[Geoffcin]

RR is not a clique-only forum. We welcome new members and encourage them to contribute. If some of us have been around for a while and have become friendly that doesn't make us a clique. As I stated earlier, I believe that makes us a community. An open community who warmly welcome people to join in. You included. Please feel free to join in the fun.

But, I'm a pretty gregarious guy, I post to all the forums, and I've never felt welcome in RR. I've tried posting here a few time and the responce was deafining silence. So, from and "outsiders" view of RR, this place is NOT a forum of "An open community who warmly welcome people to join in." now how much you would like to feel it is.

Now, regarding your comment that I didn't have to go over your head. That was not my intent. I didn't know who moved my post since it was moved without comment. I went to Eric simply because I didn't really want to start the same sort of flame war that went on when Terrence moved posts and some harsh words were exchanged and feelings hurt. I was trying to avoid that from happening again...

I said that only to tell you that I could put the thread back myself. You are absolutly free to complain about me, or any of my actions to Eric, or anyone else you feel like. I stand by them. I put the thread back as a courtacy to you, to make YOU feel better. I assure you that a flame war would not have been the result if I decided to leave them right where I put them.

If I had wanted my post in the General Forum then I would have posted it there in the first place.

I'm sorry, but the General Forum is EXACTY where I felt that thread belonged. RR is not anyones private sandbox, no matter how much you feel it's yours alone.

[Geoffcin]

Geoffcin, here's an idea. If you thought that some of the posts here were humorous and would be appreciated in the General Forum, why not leave the post where it was originally put but post a link to it on the General Forum. That way no-one is upset by a moved post; the people that the poster intended it for can still have easy access to it; and the people that you think would also enjoy it can find it.

Seems like a win-win to me.

Why not try posting a little more widely and see what happens?

In the post that I moved to the General Forum I saw an AR member CONGRADULATE you for doing just that. Cross Forum posting like this is not only the proper way to use the Forums, it leads to more people cross posting, possibly even invigorating the RR Forum as well. I see this as a real "Win-Win" don't you?

[Finch Platte]

Why not try posting a little more widely and see what happens?

In the post that I moved to the General Forum I saw an AR member CONGRADULATE you for doing just that. Cross Forum posting like this is not only the proper way to use the Forums, it leads to more people cross posting, possibly even invigorating the RR Forum as well. I see this as a real "Win-Win" don't you?

Why don't you guys relax a little?

I don't have enough time to check every board in this place, much less decide what post goes where.

I post on the RR board only, and that's probably the way it's gonna stay, if I stay, snotty attitude and all.

fp

[newtrix1]

But, I'm a pretty gregarious guy, I post to all the forums, and I've never felt welcome in RR. I've tried posting here a few time and the responce was deafining silence. So, from and "outsiders" view of RR, this place is NOT a forum of "An open community who warmly welcome people to join in." now how much you would like to feel it is..

You've probably got a point here, many topics posted here do get "snubbed", it sucks but imo it's the topic that's getting snubbed not the poster.

I said that only to tell you that I could put the thread back myself. You are absolutly free to complain about me, or any of my actions to Eric, or anyone else you feel like. I stand by them. I put the thread back as a courtacy to you, to make YOU feel better. I assure you that a flame war would not have been the result if I decided to leave them right where I put them.



I'm sorry, but the General Forum is EXACTY where I felt that thread belonged. RR is not anyones private sandbox, no matter how much you feel it's yours alone.

Wow, not sure if I'm interpretting your attitude correctly in these comments, but the impression I'm getting is fairly curt. Doesn't seem fair to FA, and as some others here have pointed out, participation is already dwindling, do you think it's a good idea to come across with a post like this? I'm glad to finally hear an explanation about why these posts were moved, and I'm that you returned them upon request, but I don't see any reason for the defensivness.

[Jim Clark]

Geoffcin, sorry you got your feelings hurt here in the past. If it will help you cope, it's happened to me as well. Actually I'd bet it's happened to everyone here so you should consider yourself initiated into the fold rather than let it twist your undies.

I can see how you get your impression of the place. Most of us have been here a whole lot longer than you have ( I believe I'm coming up on about 10 years). You're right, we do treat this place like we own it but it's because most of us have been here so long taking on a bit ownership seems natural. It's our little oasis on the internet and we work to protect it because it means something to us. I fail to see a huge downside, but that's just me.

Of course it's not our private little forum and for you to suggest new people aren't welcome bothers me and shows just how little you know about this place. New blood is always welcome. What we resent is you or anyone telling us what or where we should be posting, guess you're getting that loud and clear by now. We wish to post to the people of this forum. We aren't exactly MENSA here, but everyone knows that there are other boards at AR. If we wanted a post in one of those forums, we'd put it there. The audience we want is here and we are fully aware that AR made that possible and we are all very grateful. AR did it's job and gave us the opportunity to create an online community and we grabbed it, please don't let the success of that trouble you.

I'd suggest this place is the most open, friendliest place on the internet. I wish I could post all of the names and locations of the people who I've sent free music too and have absolutley no idea who they are or where they went. They asked for a disc or comp and I've mailed it. Not even worth mentioning if I was alone in this, but of course I'm not. I'd bet it's the same with every member here and everyone who was once a regular but has moved on. Nope, this is a very generous and friendly group. Never got a freebie from any other forum on the net in all these years but this place is a goldmine.

A clique? You're dead wrong bud. This is a very unique bunch and let's face it, most of us are oddities due to musical preferences and/or sheer numbers in our collections. That may very well leave someone who wants to discuss Def Leopard or Sade feeling left out but that doesn't make it a clique. Taste in music is a very personal thing and this place survives on the tiniest fraction of overlap we all have. Snubs happen but I'm sure it's going on in pretty much every forum at AR.

Thanks for setting things right and I hope in the future you won't be so quick to judge things around here.

jc

[Troy]

Nice Post Jim, I agree with every word.

Geoff, Most of us don't post in other threads here because we're not gearheads. I have absolutely nothing to say in a HT or Speaker discussion. The times I've been to the general board over the EIGHT years I've frequented the RR board, it's been a mess of static, flames, arguments and generally contentious behavior. The general board here is like all the other boards on the web, a mess.

I'm of the mind that the problem with web forums everywhere in general is that there are TOO MANY separate forums. As Finch said, I certainly don't have time to hit every forum in this place. I want to talk music 80% of the time. Another 10% is movies and pop culture in general. The other 10% is stuff like FA's post. If you're looking for opinions, Audio Review would do better to have only 2 forum topics-

1. Media (music, movies, pop culture)
2. Gear

And simply make the search feature more functional.

You want everybody on your forums to participate with everyone else? I do too, believe it or not. Combine everybody into one big thread so they have no choice.

Is Rave Recs too clique-y? Yeah, I've always said that it was. When there were 35 people regularly posting on it though, the place rocked. Best board on the web. Newbies COULD come in and talk about Def Leopard or Sade and someone would talk back to them. As the user base shrank (due mainly to one now banned individual) that amount of overlap also decreased. So now that there's 7-10 regulars here it appears much cilique-yer than ever before.

Don't feel snubbed. Talk about music that I want to talk about and I'll be happy to reply. It's not that I dislike you, it's that my taste in music is different than yours.

The thing about the crew that frequents this forum is that it's egalitarian. None of us thinks they are smarter, more knowledgable or cooler than anyone else. We're all older (relative to the dynamic of most web forums), and generally more cynical than most. We ARE open to new posters, we, in fact CRAVE them, but we don't have much tolerance for know it alls swaggaring in or people telling us what we can and can't do.

If you, the mod, think that a thread here is worth a wider audience, I'm all for it. But why not simply DOUBLE the link into the other thread instead of deleting it from here?

[Geoffcin]

I still think I did the right thing by moving the thread, although I see now that it seemed to RR regulars a heavy handed thing to do, and for that I apologize.

You should see my actions for what ment though; To get wider participation by all of theAR members. It was NOT an attemp to play with "your" forum at all.

For what it's worth, I belive moving it worked quite well. There was a lot of participation and interest when it was in General. Now I'm afraid the thread will be buried in the archives of the RR Forum. Who's better off for that?

[MindGoneHaywire]

> It's not that I dislike you, it's that my taste in music is different than yours.

Good enough reason to dislike somebody.

>As the user base shrank (due mainly to one now banned individual)

A bit of a reach, don't you think? Seems to me quite a few of the people that individual antagonized are still here, and some of the first people that come to my mind that don't come here much anymore, if at all, are people who weren't on bad terms with him. But aside from that (and you could say it might've scared off newbies and/or lurkers), I'd argue that if there's one main reason the user base shrank, it was due to two board software upgrades that slowed things down considerably. When the first one happened I was still on dialup & it took so long to load a page here that it seemed pointless. When I moved to cable it was easily the slowest site I could find. I don't think I would've gravitated to the Asylum if not for the speed of the format on their forums, which seems to still work fine. Perhaps there was a technical reason that required that AR update the board, but I don't remember ever hearing that. Meanwhile, there are still plenty of people on dialup & I can't imagine having to wait for the pages to load. Using Firefox helps since Adblock eliminates a bunch of stuff that slow down page loads but I guess we're not supposed to mention things like that since those things I'm blocking are revenue generators for the site...which I'd have less time to spend coming to if I had to deal with every ad image that...slows things down...

>None of us thinks they are smarter, more knowledgable or cooler than anyone else.

I sure do.

I haven't yet had a chance to respond to the moderator's reply to my post in the other thread. If he thinks I'm criticizing AR, whatever. I come here to discuss music & I understand where he's coming from to an extent but he's inexplicably taking Finch's bait & while I don't really care I felt like he made his point 3 posts into something like a dozen posts in various threads here over the past 24 hours. What's the point? I didn't even know he was the moderator here. It's a thankless task, but that doesn't make a difference when it's handled in a way that doesn't seem to make sense. Like exhorting people to download an Alexa toolbar. Which was, thankfully, removed, of course, but this stuff about 'off-topic' seems to be a choice to adhere to the letter of a regulation, rather than the spirit. I can't help but think there just might be a better way to approach an issue the site folks may very well consider valid. Moving a thread with no advance notice sorta comes off power-trippy to us delicate wallflower elitists. Right, FA? That said, I think we can find a way to get over it & move on. Shall we?

[ForeverAutumn]

But, I'm a pretty gregarious guy, I post to all the forums, and I've never felt welcome in RR. I've tried posting here a few time and the responce was deafining silence. So, from and "outsiders" view of RR, this place is NOT a forum of "An open community who warmly welcome people to join in." now how much you would like to feel it is.

Really? How many times have you posted here and been ignored?

A quick search showed that you've posted here twice since January. Both posts were in March and both posts were responded to. So, I'm not exactly sure what you expected of us. You have no idea how many threads I've started over the last two years that have gone absolutely nowhere. It's not personal. Sometimes the topic just isn't of huge interest. Sometimes it's a timing thing.

I joined this board a little over two years ago and was warmly welcomed even though my musical tastes at the time were far from everyone else's. Within the month I had received comps from at least six different people, all wanting to share some of their musical experiences with me. Many have come and gone since then and I've never seen anyone who isn't a troll treated with anything other than respect and generousity.

If you want to participate, then participate. If you don't, then don't. But don't tell me that your posts were met with a deafening silence. I'm not buying it.

The next time I see you post, I'll be sure to give you pity click. I do it to Finchy's posts all the time.

[3-LockBox]

I used to post over at the General board all the time until it became poluted by trolls and spec-meisters. The very nature of this board is sooo subjective that its no fun for the tech-nazies and DBT'ers in the other forums to come in and challenge anyone motives or tastes. We're sorta self moderated that way.

As far as cliques, well that was another reason I stopped posting the other forums. We're pretty good at suiffing out trolls here. Like I said, the very nature of our board is subjective. The only people that get snubbed here are the people who come in with a "your music sucks" attitude.

If I had quit coming here because no one requested my comps that were posted, then I'd have left long ago (prolly the least requested comps are/were mine).

If I got discouraged because my posts had a low read or reply count, hell, I'd be swinging from the rafters via home made noose. I don't post here looking for acceptance. I write reviews here because in my world it is very cathartic for me to do so, regardless of how many hits I get. In fact, a lot of my reviews get few, if any, responses. (I'm prolly the least read, least reponded to regular and I've been here for at least five years, but then again, my scope of interests might too broad for some, too narrow for others)

We seemed to do very well here before, without moderation. We even liked the Yechs of the world who would come in give everyone crap. The only time we ever got out of hand were on off topic subjects; but there again, we'd usually work it out ourselves, either here at the board or in private via e-mail.


I understand the dynamics of message boards and the advertising that keeps the entire site afloat, but its just like FA said, we're a community. I have a really hard time believing that anyone felt rejected or ignored at this board. Unless of course it me.

[ForeverAutumn]

I still think I did the right thing by moving the thread, although I see now that it seemed to RR regulars a heavy handed thing to do, and for that I apologize.

You should see my actions for what ment though; To get wider participation by all of theAR members. It was NOT an attemp to play with "your" forum at all.

For what it's worth, I belive moving it worked quite well. There was a lot of participation and interest when it was in General. Now I'm afraid the thread will be buried in the archives of the RR Forum. Who's better off for that?

I understand that your intentions were good. And I understand your reasons for moving the thread. I hope that you understand my reasons for being upset over it.

In the end, no real harm has been done. If this is the biggest problem in my life than I am a very lucky girl. I was reminded of that this weekend by a friend's email.

I hope that you will continue to contribute on this forum. Whether you believe it or not, we are always happy to hear from new posters.