How long of a line to vote?

I don't mean to interrupt in your excellent discussion, Slosh, but I think you're over-generalizing the differences between capitalist and socialist societies. You're really comparing the western society to Soviet communist socialist countries...Yeah, THEY sucked.

Some time during the cold war, we tried too hard to make the distinction black and white so that we'd all support one another against the commies...Communism bad, Capitalism good...nobody questioned it...

But lots of countries with higher standards of living than ours, higher average wealth, have alot of social programs, but remain capitalist...a Social Democracy they call it. Capitalsim with perks.

There's no reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too and tailor the benefits of both systems to our liking ...if we're not at least trying for this, we're not trying hard enough. Don't engineer a system that facilitates giving free rides, but create a system that affords more of the lower classes to succeed. We're only as strong as our weakest link.

The same problems that killed socialism are killing capitalism at home...greedy, power-hungry elitists. The problem with our capitalist society, is that it ISN'T capitalist enough....do you really believe there's fair competition in the oil industry, insurance industry, health science industry (pharmaceuticals), etc...too many rich lobbyists interfere with capitalism. Not many people have the money to fight the legal battles required to set this straight, and no government wants to open that can of worms (the Democrats would have you believe they would, but their record puts them behind the Republicans in this regard).

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

But lots of countries with higher standards of living than ours, higher average wealth, have alot of social programs, but remain capitalist...a Social Democracy they call it. Capitalsim with perks.

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What countries might those be?

JD

Hmmm, Australia, Britain, Sweden, the Swiss...Canada...to name a few...
Not that they're all perfect either, but their systems do have certain admirable qualities.
Don't get me wrong, they don't have the Bill Gates wealthy people, but 99.99% of America doesn't have that either... but the AVERAGE wealth and poverty levels are better off...

There's no reason why an economy the size of ours couldn't allow for us to provide an environment way better than all of these.

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

Hmmm, Australia, Britain, Sweden, the Swiss...Canada...to name a few...
Not that they're all perfect either, but their systems do have certain admirable qualities.
Don't get me wrong, they don't have the Bill Gates wealthy people, but 99.99% of America doesn't have that either... but the AVERAGE wealth and poverty levels are better off...

There's no reason why an economy the size of ours couldn't allow for us to provide an environment way better than all of these.

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Well, I looked up some financial facts. I'm an economist by trade, so I find this stuff interesting. I think this perception of other countries having "higher average wealth" is more perception than truth. But I could be wrong.

According to the World Bank, per capita income rankings for 2003 were:
1. Bermuda
2. Luxemborg
3. Norway
4. Switzerland
5. US
11. Sweden (23% less than US)
12. United Kingdom (25% less than US)
24. Canada (36% less than US)
27. Australia (42% less than US)


On the same page of the report, they also rank Purchasing Power Parity (which may be a better measure of wealth than income):

1. Luxemborg
2. Bermuda
3. US
4. Norway
7. Switzerland (15% less than US)
11. Canada (21% less than US)
20. Australia (25% less than US)
21 United Kingdom (26% less than US)
26. Sweden (29% less than US)

source: http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GNIPC.pdf

Not trying to dispute your arguments, but measurements such as per capita income and purchasing power are, I think, important. They may not translate into your "higher standard of living", but I'd be curious as to what you think those are.

JD

If you're an economist JD, then you know these figures don't mean anything to the individual person's situation.
...I'm a Financial Analyst by trade, I work in derivatives and foreign markets all the time too.
Gross National Income and Purchase Power parity are excellent measures of economic relativity, but don't take into consideration the cost of living, or individual wealth because not all countries rely on income (dollars) to provide for their existance.

Purchase Power Parity really only indicates the "fair value" of currency, recently Canada's dollar has beat the absolute crap out of ours costing me, a good chunk every month >:(
Only yesterday did it reach its "PPP value" of 0.83 USD. But that appreciation in currency doesn't mean much to the individual up here in Canada, with next to no inflation, to them, when the dollar was worth 0.63 USD, a can of coke still cost $1.00 Now that it's 0.83 USD, that doesn't change anything for them, they're buying power at home is the same because Canada is pretty much self sufficient (a huge net-exporter)...

Besides, look at how high Japan is ranked there...as you know,take out 3 or 4 mediocre quarters in the last 14 years, and early results from this year, and they'd be considered in a major depression.

While those figures are routinely useful to you, myself, and others, they don't at all address the quality/standard of life relative to each other...nor do they compensate for the fact that over 90% of the wealth in America and Canada is owned by the richest 5%...(someday I hope to be among them...)
The United Nations recently ranked Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada and the Netherlands as the top 5 nations to live in this year, with the US finishing 8th...that to me speaks more to the quality and standard of life than the income of a non-sentient corporation, financial activity reported in currency of a country.

Trust me, the average American is NOT 36% wealthier than the average Canadian...I'd be extremely surprised if the real difference was more than a couple percentage points to one or the other, and probably wouldn't have left for Canada for higher paying employment.

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

I don't mean to interrupt in your excellent discussion, Slosh, but I think you're over-generalizing the differences between capitalist and socialist societies.

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Me? I haven't touched that can of worms. But since you mention it :) . . . .

The truth is neither capitalism nor socialism can ever work as intended because of human nature. Capitalism, with all of its problems, is still by far the best system (except if I was king of the world :p ).

I know I must sound like a left-winger but I really only side with them on environmental and personal freedom issues, and keeping big business in check. Everyone is well aware of the problems with the big social programs and I don't much feel like getting into that now.

I actually see a lot of sense with most of the republican economic ideology. Problem is it's all lip service and the democrats have proven to be much more fiscally responsible (in recent history, at least).

And this goddamn war is totally pointless. Iraq will end up under another brutal regime once we finally pull out. Thousands upon thousands dead and for what?

Points taken, and it would be fun (probably only to the two of us ;) ) to discuss this stuff more in-depth, but my original question was what you thought gives these other countries as you said "higher standards of living than ours, higher average wealth".

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The United Nations recently ranked Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada and the Netherlands as the top 5 nations to live in this year, with the US finishing 8th...

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While I can't speak to all the countries on the list (namely Australia), I've been fortunate enough to travel abroad some. As the old cliche goes, "there's no place like home", that's how I personally feel. Lots of places I've visited have been great to vacation (Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc.), but none personally make me consider them a better place to live when I look at the whole package the US has to offer. I'm more interested in what you think makes them better than the US.

JD

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Originally Posted by JDaniel

While I can't speak to all the countries on the list (namely Australia), I've been fortunate enough to travel abroad some. As the old cliche goes, "there's no place like home", that's how I personally feel. Lots of places I've visited have been great to vacation (Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc.), but none personally make me consider them a better place to live when I look at the whole package the US has to offer. I'm more interested in what you think makes them better than the US.

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I don't think any of them are necessarily BETTER than the USA, don't remember saying that, and if I did, shame on me...but maybe some ARE equal or better in certain ways...I do believe that many of these, if we can agree they are equal or better at times, have more social values than the US does, while retaining a generally capitalist society. Thus having their cake and eating it too...in the US we're so divided, all or none, it's kind of outdated.

Of all the countries I've been to, Australia and Canada are the most like the US. (I hold dual citizenship in the US and Canada because of my parents, so they both are special to me) These two both have radically more progressive social systems, and there's still fantastic opportunity to become wealthy in these countries.

As for what I think might make them better to some people, cheap education and healthcare accessible to all, for starters...but I don't like some these systems that allow the wrong people to go to school on the taxpayer's dollar while not being held accountable...Nor do I like people abusing free healthcare...But many of these problems are easily fixable by implementing decent rules and enforcing them...

Personally I wouldn't live anywhere that didn't broadcast the NHL and NFL football (NFL Europe DOESN'T count).

There's definitely a home bias in our personal feelings. I think because we're so far away from Europe and Asia, we only see the sensational poverty on TV, the wars, conflicts, etc...and think it's all bad.
Switzerland is beautiful, so is Sweden...I didn't like Finland much...didn't like France much either, but it seemed like everyone there was rich.

I just maintain we could be better here at home, but anytime someone tries to do something, we start throwing out the word "socialist" or "communist" like they only mean bad things, when it doesn't have to be that way.