Guitar buying advice

[Jim Clark]

Mason (soon to be 14) has finally found something that he's pretty good at and likes to practice - guitar. So far he's been learning on an accoustic guitar but for his birthday/Christmas he'd really like an electric. He has a number of buddies learning guitar too which is part of my dilemma. My goal isn't to get him the best, but one that's suitable for a new player and at the same time won't make him owner of the crappiest axe among his peers. Several of his friends families have much more money than we do so having the "best" ain't going to happen.

His guitar teacher gave us three options that he thought would be good:

An Ibaneez starter pack

Epihone SG or Les Paul

A cheap Paul Reed Smith (apparently cheap here means 500 bucks)

My brother who has a degree in Classical guitar said that to invert the list would give me his choices from top to bottom as to the best guitars. After an online search I'm leaning towards the Epihone Les Paul 100 which is about 300. Good choice? Any others to add to the list?

I'll also need to be grabbing a practice amp and I'll want to keep that around 100 if possible and if you have "the one" I'd love to hear about it.

j? Swish? Rick? Nobody? Anybody???

Regards,
jc

[GMichael]

Hey Jim,

That's great. The Epihone SG or Les Paul are probably your best bet in that price range. I have an Epiphone Genisses and have always liked it. My Steinberger is much nicer but would cost much more. I'm not sure if they have an entry model. But if the do, it wouldn't really be "entry level." They make exceptional instruments. Here is their link. http://www.gibson.com/products/steinberger/

They used to be here in Newburgh before Gibson bought them out and moved them to Nashville.

Happy hunting.

[Swish]

Mason (soon to be 14) has finally found something that he's pretty good at and likes to practice - guitar. So far he's been learning on an accoustic guitar but for his birthday/Christmas he'd really like an electric. He has a number of buddies learning guitar too which is part of my dilemma. My goal isn't to get him the best, but one that's suitable for a new player and at the same time won't make him owner of the crappiest axe among his peers. Several of his friends families have much more money than we do so having the "best" ain't going to happen.

His guitar teacher gave us three options that he thought would be good:

An Ibaneez starter pack

Epihone SG or Les Paul

A cheap Paul Reed Smith (apparently cheap here means 500 bucks)

My brother who has a degree in Classical guitar said that to invert the list would give me his choices from top to bottom as to the best guitars. After an online search I'm leaning towards the Epihone Les Paul 100 which is about 300. Good choice? Any others to add to the list?

I'll also need to be grabbing a practice amp and I'll want to keep that around 100 if possible and if you have "the one" I'd love to hear about it.

j? Swish? Rick? Nobody? Anybody???

Regards,
jc

I will tell you that crappy guitars are probably the main reason many give up trying. They're hard enough to learn without having to take your first lessons on a POS that would hard to play for an experienced guitarist.

What's really funny is that my neighbor asked me to hide a guitar a my house that she bought her son for Christmas, and it happens to be an Epiphone Les Paul. Really! I can assure you that, for $300, it's not a bad buy at all. I was just tuning it up and played it for a few minutes, and assure you it handles just fine, with nice action and feel. I didn't plug it in, but would bet the electronics are going to be average, but fine for a young lad who is just starting out. I say go for it if you don't want to spend $500 on the PRS.

As for the amp, I'm not sure what $100 will get you, but it won't be very pleasant in my opinion. I would try to stetch that a little bit and get a nice Fender practice amp that will run you about $200, may $250. I'll hafta do some research, because I haven't shopped for something like that in many moons.

Good luck!

Swish

[Jim Clark]

http://www.music123.com/Epiphone-Les...0-i27928.music

As I've learned, there are about 100 different Les Paul Epiphone guitars of varying prices. If it's not too much trouble Swish could you tell me if this particular model is cool? Apparently one of the differences that account for price is a bolt on neck vs. a built through (or whatever it's called). This model has a bolt on neck which is why it's 150 less than the one I saw at the store today. Personally I think that this may be the one in terms of value but if I was sure I wouldn't have posted!

Thanks for all of the respones so far, much appreciated. Gmicheal, thanks to you too. I've started poking around your link but as you suspected, I think it's going to cost a lot more than I am really looking to spend. I guess I could cancel my Anthem AVM 30 order. Nah...

Regards,
jc

[GMichael]

http://www.music123.com/Epiphone-Les...0-i27928.music

As I've learned, there are about 100 different Les Paul Epiphone guitars of varying prices. If it's not too much trouble Swish could you tell me if this particular model is cool? Apparently one of the differences that account for price is a bolt on neck vs. a built through (or whatever it's called). This model has a bolt on neck which is why it's 150 less than the one I saw at the store today. Personally I think that this may be the one in terms of value but if I was sure I wouldn't have posted!

Thanks for all of the respones so far, much appreciated. Gmicheal, thanks to you too. I've started poking around your link but as you suspected, I think it's going to cost a lot more than I am really looking to spend. I guess I could cancel my Anthem AVM 30 order. Nah...

Regards,
jc

Noooooooooooo Don't cancel your Anthem AVM 30 order. The Epiphone will be a great starter. But I would opt for the model without the bolt on neck. Maybe they have changed over the years. But what I remember about these was that you would end up needing to tune it more often because of possible movement of the neck/head. I'm sure it's still a good model for a starter. And with such a good name it shouldn't be hard to sell when it's time to upgrade. Warning: musicians tend to keep all of their instruments through the years. Even when the upgrade bug hits you may have to pry that old one out of his hands.

[N. Abstentia]

$100 Won't get you much of an amp, I would get this one at a bare minimum:
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-VOX-AD30VT.html

I have the 50 watt version which is $359. It's seriously scary how good these amps are. It comes way to close for comfort to my $2500 Soldano amp. Honestly.

For a guitar, here's a good alternative to Epiphone, which I don't care for:
http://www.americanmusical.com/item-...-brand-89.html
Plus it's $100 cheaper so you can get the better amp with it.

Plus..let's face it. ESP is a much cooler guitar and he will get mucho points from his friends. Having an Epiphone is kinda like having a Fisher stereo.

[kexodusc]

I bought one of those ESP's N. Abstentia mentioned for my wife just a few weeks ago...Nice piece.
There's a lot of really good, cheap knock-off brands from China, Korea, etc that are just as good for pretty cheap too. For amps, I'd just go with those $200 Fender amps...You pretty much get what you pay for there. Tons of kids are getting by with those cheap 8" Peavey units, which do the trick nicely for next to no money. I'd hit a pawn shop and buy a used amp myself.

[Swish]

http://www.music123.com/Epiphone-Les...0-i27928.music

As I've learned, there are about 100 different Les Paul Epiphone guitars of varying prices. If it's not too much trouble Swish could you tell me if this particular model is cool? Apparently one of the differences that account for price is a bolt on neck vs. a built through (or whatever it's called). This model has a bolt on neck which is why it's 150 less than the one I saw at the store today. Personally I think that this may be the one in terms of value but if I was sure I wouldn't have posted!

Thanks for all of the respones so far, much appreciated. Gmicheal, thanks to you too. I've started poking around your link but as you suspected, I think it's going to cost a lot more than I am really looking to spend. I guess I could cancel my Anthem AVM 30 order. Nah...

Regards,
jc

in cherry sunburst. I do like Les Paul's and all, but I don't own one at present. They're among the heaviest guitars you can buy, and having one slung over your should for an hour or so gets kinda nasty. This Epiphone model is a different story though, as it's slimmer and much lighter than the Gibby, and I think it's a good choice for your son.

I did read J's reply about the Squire Strat and have to agree, although the Japanese version were much better than the latter Korean and Mexican made models. I owned a red Jap and it was excellent, and I could kick myself for selling the thing some 12 years or so ago. I paid about $230 for it at Sam Ash, with the case, and it was untouchable in that price range. I've played the Korean and Mexican versions and I think they really are a step down in quality, espcially in the electronics. They look and feel ok and are prolly fine or a beginner, but I still say the Epiphone is a good choice, so why muddy the waters any further.

I think N.Abstentia's recommend on the Vox is also a fine choice if you're ok with the price. There just aren't too many amps that are worth buying for less than that, unless you can find a good used one, but you have to know what you're buying.

Good luck,
Swish

[3-LockBox]

Mason (soon to be 14) has finally found something that he's pretty good at and likes to practice - guitar. So far he's been learning on an accoustic guitar but for his birthday/Christmas he'd really like an electric.

jc

What day is his birthday? I was born in late December and I always got the combo gift (you know: Happy B'day/Merry X-mas) and I thought it *SUCKED!!!

*(note the lack of smiley? I'm still haunted by this.....)

[Jim Clark]

What day is his birthday? I was born in late December and I always got the combo gift (you know: Happy B'day/Merry X-mas) and I thought it *SUCKED!!!

*(note the lack of smiley? I'm still haunted by this.....)

December 24. Not really ideal, but what are you going to do? We work pretty hard to avoid the combo thing though.

The trip to Guitar Center was eye opening and disappointing. We had a chance to play the Les Paul 100. the sales man plugged it into a 1,300 dollar Marshall amp to "show you what the guitar was capable of". Then, without our asking he brought in a 1,300 Gibson, "just to show the difference". It's goes without saying that even I could tell a major difference in tone. Then as salesmen do, he brought in a different epihphone, this time 200 dollars more to show how for "just a little bit more money" you could come awfully close to the Gibson sound. At this point, the damage was done. We are still considering our options. I'm going to Sam's Loan Office tomorrow to check out amps. We did try some amps yesterday and that Vox was pretty cool although the sales guy was pushing an Epiphone 10 watt tube amp for a mere 119. He pretty much didn't like the vox at all and I'm not sure why. Is that Vox a SS piece? I thought it was tubed too with a name like Valvetronic.

Regards,
jc

[3-LockBox]

The trip to Guitar Center was eye opening and disappointing. We had a chance to play the Les Paul 100. the sales man plugged it into a 1,300 dollar Marshall amp to "show you what the guitar was capable of". Then, without our asking he brought in a 1,300 Gibson, "just to show the difference". It's goes without saying that even I could tell a major difference in tone. Then as salesmen do, he brought in a different epihphone, this time 200 dollars more to show how for "just a little bit more money" you could come awfully close to the Gibson sound. At this point, the damage was done. We are still considering our options. I'm going to Sam's Loan Office tomorrow to check out amps. We did try some amps yesterday and that Vox was pretty cool although the sales guy was pushing an Epiphone 10 watt tube amp for a mere 119. He pretty much didn't like the vox at all and I'm not sure why. Is that Vox a SS piece? I thought it was tubed too with a name like Valvetronic.

Regards,
jc

Yikes Jim, you wouldn't take a girlfriend to the jewelry store would you?

I always snoop around first and tell the salesperson my expectations first, and I always try to control the shopping experience. I know he's trying to make a living but what he did was sleazy.

[LeoFenderBender]

I have two suggestions: (1) get a name-brand guitar that (2) plays well. Keep in mind that electric guitars are easier to play than acoustics but electrics also need an amp. Acoustics are also more difficult to resell unless you buy much higher quality. When choosing an amp, determine whether he will need it to be loud enough just for practicing or for playing with others - there are plenty of solid-state amps with enough features to keep his interest.

The best way to keep your son’s interest is by getting a guitar that plays well. If he already has the discipline to practice, get him something nice. If you (later) find he doesn’t have the discipline, getting a name brand will guarantee you will get more money back from the purchase when you resell it. Lesser makes will resell at significant discounts. Name brands are more readily snapped up in the used market.

Some good quality electrics:
Fender MIM (Made in Mexico) electrics – the Stratocaster is the best for resale - HIGHLY RECOMMENDED; Anything made by Godin will be ready to play and are excellent value guitars - RECOMMENDED; The Yamaha Pacifica is also a good value but will be difficult to resell.

Be prepared to spend around $50 on a setup – that will enhance playability and make the guitar play as well as it is capable of playing.

Good luck!

[pelly3s]

what i would do is take him to a music store and put a ton of different guitars into his hands and see what he is more comfortable with.... and definately think of going used. I took my cousin to buy a new guitar and i had him play over 50 different ones before making his mind up

[Mike Anderson]

Screw the GC salesmen. (Sorry, I should have warned you about them.)

I wouldn't buy a guitar at Guitar Center to save my life. Should you go there again, just make it clear that you only want to try out a specific guitar or amp, and leave your wallet at home. You're not there to buy, only to get a sense of what it is you want.

Believe it or not, it's quite possible to get a fairly inexpensive rig that sounds good and plays well. You have to be smart about it, and try out lots of guitars, but it can be done. Ignore whatever the salesman tells you and go with your ears and hands (or your son's ears and hands, since he's the one who knows how it should sound and whether it's comfortable.)

[dean_martin]

I've seen the cheap Vox amps and I was not impressed. They're certainly not the same quality of Vox that Hendrix played through.

For a decent practice amp with ok built-in digital effects (overdrive/distortion, delay, reverb,flange) give the small Marshall amps a try. I bought my son one 2 or 3 Christmases ago. He uses it with his Epiphone LP100 (the same model you mentioned) and his Ibanez acoustic-electric. The amp has a cd player input. We use it to mic vocals when my other son, the drummer, gets his band together for practice. It's a handy-dandy device that sounds good for the money. Here's a link from Musician's Friend - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/483187/

You can get a model without the effects for less money, but you might spend more money on effects boxes later. IMO, the bigger, nicer amp with add-on effects pedals, etc. comes later when he has an idea of the tone he wants. (Also, Peavy amps seem to be popular for practice amps, but I haven't tried one.)

Finally, I'm a Fender man (Jazzmaster, Mustang, Princeton Reverb tube amp), but I was intrigued with the Epiphone Dot Arch Top semi-hollowbody. I tried one, but didn't like the feel of the neck - I thought the fretboard had sharp edges that were uncomfortable. As far as Fender goes, I'm surprised by the number of working musicians who use Strat copies from other manufacturers - they must be doing something right for much less money. The Strat and Strat copies are popular because of the variety of tones you can get without any fuss. I can't recommend a manufacturer for a Strat copy, but that might be something to look in to. You might be able to get better quality with another manufacturer as opposed to going with a Squier or even a Mexican Fender. In the heirarchy of Fender, US-made and Japan-made are a close 1, 2 with Mexico and Korea at the bottom. You'll pay through the nose for a US made Fender. IMO, the Japan-made Fenders represent the best value - my Jazzmaster is an MIJ.

[ToddL]

Jim
I think you mentioned you are near the TO area, if so go to Long and Mquade (this may be spelt wrong) we don't have the music superstores that the American's have but this is close. Also you can find some really nice Mexican Strats that are a lot cheaper than the US one's, the nice ones are about a 1 in 20 but they are out there because of inconsistancies in Mexican production that sometimes works out well.

[Jim Clark]

Jim
I think you mentioned you are near the TO area, if so go to Long and Mquade (this may be spelt wrong) we don't have the music superstores that the American's have but this is close. Also you can find some really nice Mexican Strats that are a lot cheaper than the US one's, the nice ones are about a 1 in 20 but they are out there because of inconsistancies in Mexican production that sometimes works out well.

Thanks for the replies, one and all. Not much time right now but wanted to acknowledge the continued replies.

Todd, you lost me which really isn't all that hard to do. I live in Lenexa, a suburb of Kansas City. Not really sure what the TO area is, unless that's Topeka? If so I'll see what I can do to check out that store. Maybe they have an online presence. Thanks much.

Regards,
jc

[GMichael]

What day is his birthday? I was born in late December and I always got the combo gift (you know: Happy B'day/Merry X-mas) and I thought it *SUCKED!!!

*(note the lack of smiley? I'm still haunted by this.....)

My mom's birthday is December 23rd. One year when I was still very young, I thought, hey, instead of buying mom two $20 - 25 gifts, why not get her one $40 - 50. This way she can get one nice gift instead of two crappy ones.

Big mistake! I still have tire marks on my back from when she went up one side of me and down the other.

Combo gifts do not work. They feel ripped off. Even if you spend twice as much, it doesn't matter.

[MindGoneHaywire]

Jim...


http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/..._tid=topseller


I own a Japanese Jazzmaster myself & while most people will insist that the American-mades are better, only the truest of snobs will insist that the Japanese issues are not as good. Yes, they're a cut above the Mexican & Korean models. But that's something that I'm not sure is going to matter all that much to a beginner. Really.

Fender may not be what yr kid wants in terms of tone, playability, etc. But I can't see what good spending more than this is going to accomplish for a beginner. I disagree with the notion of thinking about resale value, or that whether or not interest will be retained has anything to do with how good the gear is. If you want to play, you'll play on a jail guitar, on a guitar that looks like Willie Nelson's with the hole in it. My first acoustic was a no-name pos that I played into the ground for 10 years until I got an Ovation that I still own; my first electric was a no-name pos that I played the crap out of for 6 years until I picked up my first name guitar, a Rickenbacker I later traded for my Jazzmaster. And my first bass was a Univox sort of made to look like a Hofner violin bass, with the body made out of plastic. And the Precision I've been using for nearly a decade? Korean.

Unless you get unlucky & end up with a complete pos I don't think he'll notice much. When you're learning how to play an instrument is not the time when a true player is going to get caught up in the quality of the instrument, so long as it's above the relatively low level required for learning & early-stage playing. As for the amp...a tube amp for a beginner? I don't see why. A kid is going to be more concerned with portability than sound quality, in my estimation. If it doesn't sound like complete poopy, why get tubes that insure that the amp has to be treated better than one would reasonably expect a 14-year old to treat this? Someone might counter that even a beginner should learn how to treat gear properly, but I know plenty of long-time players who didn't necessarily follow this as beginners & may not have grown into it if they hadn't had the flexibility to knock the thing around--or at least not feel like they've trashed a valuable antique if it accidentally falls on the floor.

I struggled with inferior gear for years when I was learning because I knew that if I stuck with it that one day it'd warrant acquiring the better gear that so many insisted I should be learning on. I didn't get their all-knowing tone then, and I don't get it now, either. I'm not saying you shouldn't spend a few hundred dollars & get a more credible match, but I will say that unless you think this is going to be a lifelong passion, I'm not sure I see the point. You could pick him up a better gtr in a year, a better amp the year after that. There's plenty of birthdays & Xmas's in the future, right? If he wants to be a player, really wants to be a player, he'll do what he has to do. The one area where I wouldn't skimp at this stage of the game is not the electronics, but the ability of the thing to stay in tune. I believe you'll do better in that area at this price point with a Fender or Squire than with a Gibson or Epiphone, but others may see it differently. My recommendation in this area is because, if the kid has an ear. he'll hear it if the thing can't stay in tune, and that's a #1 frustration-builder, way more so than an inferior tone. And even on a practice amp you can work to improve the tone with a pedal or two down the road. But one of the reasons I was able to stick with my inferior learning instruments was that they stayed in tune. Which was something I didn't realize the importance of until I started using my Rickenbacker, which never did, and was therefore unplayable in spite of how cool it looked & even sounded. So...it's going to be a matter of priorities. If getting something like a PRS makes more sense, go for it...but I'd never have thought of one of those as a guitar for a beginner.

[GMichael]

Jim...
Fender may not be what yr kid wants in terms of tone, playability, etc. .

Wow, back in the 70's, if you didn't own a Straticaster you weren't cool. I got my Epiphone because I couldn't aford a Fender. Even when I got the Steinburger there were a few who would ask me why I didn't get a Strat.

[Mike Anderson]

Jim...


http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/..._tid=topseller

Jim, just so you know, I think Musician's Friend is now owned by Guitar Center.

But that's something that I'm not sure is going to matter all that much to a beginner. Really.

Fender may not be what yr kid wants in terms of tone, playability, etc. But I can't see what good spending more than this is going to accomplish for a beginner.

I have to disagree. If you want your kid to keep it up, it seems to me you'd want to make the experience as enjoyable as possible. This doesn't mean you need to spend a lot of money, but it means you should spend the time to find a guitar that's comfortable to play and sounds good to him.

Now maybe he's so driven that he'll play a string on a log, but why set up obstacles if you don't have to.

If getting something like a PRS makes more sense, go for it...but I'd never have thought of one of those as a guitar for a beginner.

The Korean PRS's most certainly are beginner's guitars. The U.S. models most certainly are not!

[MindGoneHaywire]

Well, I think Jim was looking for a range of opinions, looks like he got a pretty wide range. I haven't had anything but positive experiences with Guitar Center, so I'm not going to agree with those bashing them. After years with little alternative to West 48th St., they were a breath of fresh air in these parts. In Guitar Center I made it clear I wasn't interested in sales talk OR 48th St. attitude. That's something that may be unique to NYC, LA, Nashville, I don't know. All I know is it was always annoying as hell, and at GC I was able to just go in & get what I wanted. But then I've never been the type to spend much time in a store. I've never had to take much time with an instrument to know whether or not it's what I want. Either it's playable, or it's not. Either it's comfortable, or it's not. It's going to sound a lot better through whatever amp they're going to plug it into, so you ask them to plug it into something that's as close to what you'll be hearing it through as possible. Most players will probably disagree with me on this stuff, but that's been my experience. I loathe being in the stores anyway, surrounded by hackers who can't find a captive audience any other way. But I've never had to return a guitar, so I've never found it necessary to test-drive it any more than I was comfortable with. Most people will probably want to take more time then me. I think letting someone know you just don't want to hear any sales talk will work as well as anything else. If a hard sell is the main complaint against GC, it's something that's never affected me. And since outfits like Sam Ash have had their in-store selection reportedly shaped at various times by personal disputes between company execs & vendors...well, outside of vintage gear, which is of course extremely expensive, I haven't seen too many mom'n'pops that have the selection of twangers GC can put out on their walls.

I maintain that if the kid really wants to be a player, he'll play on anything. If he started on an acoustic, moving to electric makes a much bigger difference than the difference between a mediocre approximation of a Les Paul vs. a mediocre approximation of a Fender. However, a Squire is probably going to be more comfortable to play sitting down, than a Les Paul. The guitars these things are based on were designed for the comfort of the player more than anything Les Paul ever put his name on, in my estimation. And I have this weird thing where, if you're going to play a Les Paul, it should be the heavy guitar he intended it to be, not some facsimile intended for beginners. I don't think of this guitar as being something geared towards beginners. But hey, that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Les Pauls for what they are. But they're serious pieces of wood for serious players, in my book--and they're heavy as lead. Leo Fender took quite a bit of scorn 50 years ago, but he did the world a big favor by putting something out there that bridged the gap between the great Les Paul (and other) guitars, and the cheap junk sold in department stores, like the Airlines, Harmony Rockets, Kay, stuff like that. As inferior as the Mexican & Korean models may be, I think there's a playability on those instruments that make them beginner-friendly. I guess someone else might see an obstacle there, but to me they're just not likely to dissuade anybody from becoming a player if they have the ability & the desire, and not necessarily in that order. But hey, if the kid wants the Epiphone Les Paul, or if it makes more sense, go for it! But, assuming that at least some practice time is going to be spent sitting down, I think most would disagree that a Les Paul-type instrument is going to be more comfortable than a Fender. Not all, of course. Everyone is different. But I hardly think a Squire constitutes putting an unnecessary obstacle in the way of a beginner.

A more arguable point is the issue of identity: an Ibanez--you mentioned a starter pack--is considered to be a heavy metal guitar, for the most part. Les Pauls, if not used for jazz, are closely associated with people like Ace Frehley, Slash, etc. Fenders are more neutral; if yr kid is very specific about what he likes & what style he wants to play, then you know which direction to go in. If he likes to play a lot of different kinds of things, I do think it's easier to get there with a more versatile instrument like a Strat, which I've never liked personally but always viewed as a good option for a starter. I do think it allows players to grow into an identity more so than the other types, since you can add effects that can approximate those, and it works better than, say, using a Les Paul to play surf music. That's not to say that you can't, of course, but I do think this is something to keep in mind, and another reason why I mention it as a good all-around choice for yr situation. But then I'm a big fan of single-coil versatility. I like the idea of a more advanced player getting his sound with as little processing as possible, and most of the players I've played with have been sticklers in this regard. Personally I love the sound of a single-coil guitar with an overdrive pedal. But...some like distortion instead! Others prefer those DOD "Grunge" pedals; then of course some people are partial to chorus...or a flanger...or a particular flavor of reverb. And then there are zoom units, and all other sorts of MIDI contraptions. I recall being at a party some years ago where someone had a zoom unit, and they were having a good time making the thing sound like all sorts of things. Eventually the guitar made its way into the hands of a friend of mine, who asked, 'can you make this sound like...a guitar?

Much like the idea of learning on an acoustic before moving on to an electric, I say that even a kid who's hell-bent on making one heck of a racket with a guitar that's shaped like an ornate medieval weapon is liable to benefit from the ability to achieve a reasonably decent clean tone while acquiring some fundamentals. And outside of a specialty item like a Rickenbacker, you can get a much better result dirtying up a good clean sound than you can cleaning up a good dirty sound...in other words, maybe one can't make a Fender going through a Fender sound like a Gibson going through a Marshall...but they can come a lot closer, with the right tools, than one can trying to make a Gibson through a Marshall, sound anything like a Fender...but all this is just player bias. It may not have any bearing on what you're going for here.

As for PRS...don't know much about them, didn't know they made beginner models. This could be appealing in being somewhere between the Gibsons & the Fenders in terms of some of the aspects I'm thinking about. When are you going to pull the trigger on this purchase, anyway? Couple weeks?

[Mike Anderson]

I haven't had anything but positive experiences with Guitar Center, so I'm not going to agree with those bashing them.

Apparently Jim didn't share your experience!

I've never had to take much time with an instrument to know whether or not it's what I want. Either it's playable, or it's not. Either it's comfortable, or it's not.

As an experienced player, I can pick up a guitar and size up the instrument in less than a minute. A less experienced player will need to spend more time with it.

As I mentioned earlier, when I first started playing electric, I had a guitar with a very thin neck. Because I had large hands, I would cramp up - but only after playing for 30 minutes or so. This is a common problem.

Because of my experience, I know now that I need a large, thick neck. But there's no way I would have known the guitar wasn't right for me after picking it up and playing it for a minute or two.

outside of vintage gear, which is of course extremely expensive, I haven't seen too many mom'n'pops that have the selection of twangers GC can put out on their walls.

Where I live, that's just not true. For example, a place like Subway guitars:

http://www.fatdawg.com/

They have more guitars than you could shake a stick at, and they aren't all big $$ axes, not by a long shot.

And I have this weird thing where, if you're going to play a Les Paul, it should be the heavy guitar he intended it to be, not some facsimile intended for beginners.

Depends. If what you want is the sound of a Les Paul, you do NOT necessarily need to hang a brick around your neck. The same sound can be had in a lighter, more comfortable guitar.

I do think it's easier to get there with a more versatile instrument like a Strat

Again, I have to disagree. I have never, but never been able to get a good fat Les Paul-type sound out of a single coil Fender-type guitar. But I can routinely get a shimmering clean Fender-type sound out of a Les Paul type guitar (usually using split coil or P-90 style pickups).

Much like the idea of learning on an acoustic before moving on to an electric

I agree with this. I learned on acoustic, and played it for several years before I bought an electric.

As for PRS...don't know much about them, didn't know they made beginner models. This could be appealing in being somewhere between the Gibsons & the Fenders in terms of some of the aspects I'm thinking about.

This is definitely true of the US models, but I don't know enough about the Koreans to say so for them.

[Jim Clark]

Being a non musical sort, this has been an interesting experience. My younger brother is a professional musician but he lives 200 miles away and hasn't been much help. One thing I've learned for certain is that guitars are a very personal item for the musicians that play them. I suspect that's true in just about every endeavor be it golf clubs for the serious player or motorcycle for an experienced rider. I was not necessarily prepared for such a wide array of opinions with guitars but that comes only from my own ignorance, which has faded only the smallest bit. You guys do have some really cool looking guitars and the pride in ownership is obvious and probably well deserved.

This thread has been a trip. In the beginning I was really hoping for replies from J and Swish since I've "known" them for many, many years now. It's been great to get such thoughtful replies from Mike, Nabstentia, GMicheal, Kex, and anyone else I'm temporarily spacing as well, I consider those as an unexpected bonus.

J- Whatever I end up with will be purchased in time for Christmas. It's way more than we spend for birthdays and truthfully, more than we will want to spend for Christmas at this point. If he was an only child it would be a different story, but he's not. We have to preserve some semblance of fairness here. He will get some other things as well, but this is the big one. As of right now, he's not excited about Fender product. I honestly don't know why but before it's all said and done, he will sit down and play the model you suggested. I don't want to be too pushy here, it's kind of like him telling me what kind of speakers to buy, it just won't work.

As things stand right now we are really still deciding what road to take and we're going to let Mason make the decision. For the guitar we are willing to spend 300.00 which will cover the Epiphone Les Paul 100 (or Fender, or whatever). He does have interest in the 500 Les Paul Standard he played at Guitar Center. Basically he's needing to decide if he wants to kick in 200 bucks for the difference. Not really very Christmasy of us but if it gets him the guitar he wants it seems to me to be our best option. He still wants to play the import PRS at the local Guitar Source where he takes lessons. He figures if 500 guitars are in play, he wants to try those as well since his teacher made the recomendation. I tend to agree. My best guess is that he'll take the 100 and be thrilled despite the fact that the GC guy implied gently that it was a POS. He's not the greedy sort at all which is why his mother and I really want him to be happy with whatever he ends up with.

Regards,
jc

[Dusty Chalk]

I should also mention that the reviews on Harmony Central are what turned me towards my Steinberger Spirit GT-Pro.

You may want to look over there.