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  1. #1
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Questions about going digital and getting rid of CDs.

    Well, not totally digital. I'm still keeping my vinyl no question and will still be adding to that pile. However, I am serious about the possibility of getting rid of all my CDs and going with an iPod and digital storage. But, I have some questions some of you may be able to answer.

    First, how much storage do I need. I see things about how many songs an iPod holds, but how many CDs are we talking about and at what bit rate?

    And bit rate. I have been an advocate of CD over MP3 for better sound and still believe this to be true. However, at home on my good stereo I basically listen to vinyl 90% of the time anyway so I'm just looking for a decent format to play in the car and through headphones. What kind of bit rate would be a nice compromise between file size and quality? And should I use MP3s or one of the Apple proprietary formats? How important are backup files?

    Finally, I want to hook this up to my car. My car stereo is not iPod ready, but I will be buying something to make it work and am not against having something installed if the price isn't too outrageous. Anyone have any good solutions for using the iPod in the car?

    Right now, I'm just thinking of picking up a 120GB iPod and starting the process of converting CDs, but any ideas anyone has would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    First task is to do what your doing and give it some serious thought. I first digitized my library in MP3 form long ago, with great effort and then later did it all over again in lossless, again with great effort. If I would have done lossless first, it would have been much easier and saved me hours and hours and hours.

    Go lossless. With iTunes this means Apple Lossless. There are free converters (Max on Mac's) that will convert to other formats that iTunes doesn't support (flac, etc.)

    I dug up this thread where I put some hard numbers on space and storage
    Calculations: Compression vs Lossless

    Also there's this thread that covers some of the basics of ripping. Getting the right software does make a small but significant difference in quality.
    Getting started to digitilise my collection. Advice welcome!

    I wouldn't consider the iPod the primary storage, obviously. I find it best to keep my library on an external hard drive. The advantages are several. Keeps it separate from the rest of the computer so you don't accidentally dump it. It's portable. Once you have an external, I think you're more likely to think about backing it up.

    Bullet point...get two externals. One working, one as a back up. It's a lot of time an effort to re-rip when the hard drive fails. And all hard drives will fail in time. An extra $100 will save you days if not weeks of effort.

    My iPod is a nano and doesn't hold everything. I don't mind swapping out the music periodically. I keep apple lossless files on my iPod and don't bother down converting them to MP3. Obviously, the whole lossless library will not fit (but neither would the whole MP3 library if it existed). But, how much music do you need constant portable access to anyway in any given month... That's just me though.

    Been listening to nobody's vinyl mix a lot lately, I meant to thank you for it. It's very good.

  3. #3
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Just checked some bulk numbers for my library.

    I've got 44.3 days of music in Apple Lossless and this is 338.93Gb.

    iTunes says this is 1188 albums/CD's but I think the true number is closer to 900 due to partial albums.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    For my ears, the difference between lossless and MP3 is gone somewhere south of 256 Kbit. If you're going to invest the time in doing the ripping, you should spend a little time up-front listening to the differences. One of the merits of going lossless is that you don't have to do these experiments.

  5. #5
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    Glad you liked the mix.

    Sounding to me like at a minimum if I want to do this right I'd need to get 2 external drives, using one for backup and an iPod and would probably be best off using Apple lossless? (I've used FLAC a ton, but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth to get FLAC and an iPod playing nice together...would I just go ahead and rip with iTunes if I use this format? I've used EAC in the past, but don't believe it supports Apple lossless.)

    I'm guessing I could probably start out with a 500GB external and an iPod and then pick up like a TB external to back stuff up on maybe a couple months down the road. I actually just ditched a bunch of my CDs as it is already and probably have less than 1,000 left.

  6. #6
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Sound like a plan. Check with the PC experts but I think you'll want to

    1) rip to a lossless format with EAC (flac or WAV). (foobar2000 may have EAC under the hood?)

    2) use foobar2000 with the optional ALAC component to convert to Apple Lossless
    http://www.foobar2000.org/?page=Download#components

    3) import to iTunes

    The potential problem is whether this chain will propagate all the meta data tags with the files. The conversion of lossless to lossless though will be relatively fast; much faster than ripping anyway. So it shouldn't add too much pain.

  7. #7
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    What's the advantage of using foobar over iTunes for ripping to Apple Lossless?

  8. #8
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    In my lossless ripping I found that iTunes left some pops in the rips. Nothing quite like a Chopin sonata with a single digital pop in the middle to piss one off. iTunes says it does error correction but it wasn't good enough when I ripped. Perhaps iTunes has improved, but how would one know? I switched to using Max on the Mac OS and since then I've had no problems.

    Technically, I read that EAC is better than Max, but EAC doesn't have a Mac version. There's quite a bit of highly technical mumbo jumbo about how bits are actually read from the disk, that I don't completely follow. Suffice to say there's more than one way to do it. Max is the best available for Macs. On the PC, if foobar uses EAC I would use foobar.

  9. #9
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    Gracias. I'll try to figure out how all that works.

  10. #10
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Not a bad plan

    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Sound like a plan. Check with the PC experts but I think you'll want to

    1) rip to a lossless format with EAC (flac or WAV). (foobar2000 may have EAC under the hood?)

    2) use foobar2000 with the optional ALAC component to convert to Apple Lossless
    http://www.foobar2000.org/?page=Download#components

    3) import to iTunes

    The potential problem is whether this chain will propagate all the meta data tags with the files. The conversion of lossless to lossless though will be relatively fast; much faster than ripping anyway. So it shouldn't add too much pain.
    I agree with this basic strategy. In particular, ripping is pretty big job and you ought to rip only to a lossless format. If you need to squeeze more on to a portable device, convert & copy to whatever lossy format you need. Bear in mind that converting is a much, much quicker and easier process than re-ripping.

    Ripping to lossless gives you the comfort of know that, if you should ever have the need or desire, you can reconstitute the original, uncompressed content. Also, if you ever need a different lossy format, you can use your lossless files to convert & copy to the different lossy without the further loss of fidelity that happens going from one lossy to another lossy format.

    If your target is iTunes, the ripping to Apple Lossless, (ALAC), would be a good choice but it isn't critical since there are converters that copy your files from virtually any lossless format to virtually any other lossless, or compressed, format.

    For ripping and converting I strongly recommend dBpoweramp. I use the $36 Reference version that does "secure" ripping and also batch conversions.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    OK, I think I'm pretty much set hardware wise. I'm gonna grab a 120 GB iPod and a 1TB external drive and start ripping to Apple Lossless to save on the external but go ahead and just use VBR MP3s on the iPod. Also gonna see about getting some sort of connection hard wired to the care stereo. I'll eventually get a second external drive for a backup but until I rip and get rid of all my CDs backup isn't quite so important.

    Now, I'm wondering about software. I have a bunch of audio crap on my machine now and want to pare down to the essentials. I'll still be keeping Goldwave for capturing and editing when I burn from vinyl. I'm gonna go ahead and get iTunes so I will be all compatible with the iPod.

    But, ripping? I have used EAC before but it looks like it is a bit of a pain to rip to Apple Lossless from that. What about this dbPowerAmp? Does it rip to Apple Lossless easily? I've seen multiple reports now of iTunes making bad rips with less than perfect discs, which descripes most of mine. So, is dbPoweramp going to be easier to work with than EAC as far as going to Apple Lossless? Does dbpoweramp also burn CDs if I would still have a need for one? Can I also use it for converting to MP3s?

    I guess the question is, if I want to be able to capture audio from a CD as Apple Lossless, edit it, convert to MP3 and possibly burn a CD now and then, could I take everything else off my machine and go with Glodwave for editing, iTunes for organizing, and dbPoweramp for ripping-burning-converting? Or, are there better solutions out there?

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    Any concern that Apple lossless is a proprietary format? WAV is only twice as big and is universal. MP3 is also universal and saves significantly more space. All this transcoding discussion is fun for geeks but will make normal people's heads explode.

  13. #13
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    dBpoweramp

    Quote Originally Posted by nobody
    ...
    But, ripping? I have used EAC before but it looks like it is a bit of a pain to rip to Apple Lossless from that. What about this dbPowerAmp? Does it rip to Apple Lossless easily? I've seen multiple reports now of iTunes making bad rips with less than perfect discs, which descripes most of mine. So, is dbPoweramp going to be easier to work with than EAC as far as going to Apple Lossless? Does dbpoweramp also burn CDs if I would still have a need for one? Can I also use it for converting to MP3s?
    ...
    I find dBpoweramp Ripper generally easier to use that EAC, and it has a secure mode that works as accuartely as EAC from what I can tell. And dBpoweramp can rip directly to ALAC.

    Of course, dBpa's Converter is famous and will convert from virtually anythng to virtually anything. The Reference version's Batch Convert will convert (i.e. convert & copy) whole directory trees automatically. I have used it several time to make MP2 VBR copies from ALAC or FLAC.

    dBpa Reference does have a burner module although I've never used it -- I virtual never burn CDs.

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Any concern that Apple lossless is a proprietary format? WAV is only twice as big and is universal. MP3 is also universal and saves significantly more space. All this transcoding discussion is fun for geeks but will make normal people's heads explode.
    Thought you were a scientist? They're not normal people; (I wish normal people were more like scientists, actually). Am I a geek? Well, yes, moderately geekie.

    I rip to ALAC most often, mostly so I can use the files directly on my iPod. I'm not really worried about it because I can convert to whatever format if necessary. If you like, convert to FLAC which is p.d.

    My point remains: to retain all the quality and ensure flexibity in the future, rip to a lossless format. It is much easier and quicker to convert formats than to re-rip.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Kevio's Avatar
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    I assure you, my head is not about to explode. Just trying to inject some mass-market reality into the conversation.

    How do you convert from ALAC to FLAC?

  16. #16
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    I assure you, my head is not about to explode. Just trying to inject some mass-market reality into the conversation.

    How do you convert from ALAC to FLAC?
    I use dBpoweramp Converter. It's trivial to convert either direction; most often I have converted from FLAC to ALAC in order to use iTunes. You can tell the program whether you want to replace or keep & copy the original version.

    Incidentally, the Converter and non-"secure" (error checking) ripper components of dBpoweramp ar free whereas you have to get the $36 Reference edition to do "secure" ripping, batch conversion, and burning.

  17. #17
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    Well, Apple Lossless being proprietary does concern me somewhat. But, I may still end up loading lossless files onto my iPod and if I do, I'd rather use a format it will play as is, rather than trying to mess with the software on the iPod by installing Rockbox or some such to get it to play FLAC. And, I do want lossless copies of the discs in case I ever want to burn an actual CD quality disc again for some reason. So, Apple Lossless seems the most logical way to go for me.

    I started getting software installed last night and got rid of a bunch of miscellaneous audio tools I'm not planning on using and installed dBpoweramp. It does seem to work really well for ripping and does tons of conversions. However, the version I got does not have a CD burner with it. Is there any real advantage of getting that piece of the puzzle from dBpoweramp, or is burning from iTunes just as well?

  18. #18
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody
    ...

    I started getting software installed last night and got rid of a bunch of miscellaneous audio tools I'm not planning on using and installed dBpoweramp. It does seem to work really well for ripping and does tons of conversions. However, the version I got does not have a CD burner with it. Is there any real advantage of getting that piece of the puzzle from dBpoweramp, or is burning from iTunes just as well?
    I do recommend dBpoweramp Reference for $36. It has "secure" ripping which the freebee version doesn't. Once in a while you will get a clean rip using secure mode whereas you won't without it.

    When I used iTunes to rip, I always chose 'Error Correction', neverthless I would, rarely, get a file that was unreadable. Using dBpoweramp Ref and secure mode these instances have have ceased entirely as far as I can determine. Burning and batch conversion, (i.e.automatic multiple subdirectory conversion), are available only in the Reference version.

  19. #19
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    Buying the rest fo this stuff, another $36 bucks won't kill me. And I really haven't seen any other software that seems to do everything. I'm trying to pare down rather than have 47 separate programs to do everything I need.

  20. #20
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevio
    Any concern that Apple lossless is a proprietary format? WAV is only twice as big and is universal. MP3 is also universal and saves significantly more space. All this transcoding discussion is fun for geeks but will make normal people's heads explode.
    I don't think that Apple Lossless is proprietary in that you can't get free converters but I might be wrong on that. I use Mac computers and for me I can't convert WMA lossless because Windows doesn't license it's proprietary format to Apple. At least with Apple Lossless, its available on all platforms. And as far as I can tell all, the converters that work with it are free and open source.

    Point taken though. Since I've ripped my libary, HD storage costs have fallen by about a factor of 3. I could easily skip compression altogether now for the same expense that forced me to compress before.

    Counterpoint would be that portable players are still not so memory expansive and compression is needed, or at least provides a benifit.

  21. #21
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    One more question popping up.

    If I setup an external drive to store music and have the music available on iTunes from my computer, can I pick and choose which songs are sent to my iPod? Can I have them stored as lossless and then still convert to MP3 for use on the iPod?

    Yeah, I know I should be able to figure these kinds of details out once I have everything, just wondering.

  22. #22
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    In the iTunes interface it's just drag-n-drop from your library to your iPod. You can also set up smart playlists that sync automatically.

    The MP3 bit... What would be nice is if iTunes converted on the fly to MP3 as it loaded your iPod. Unfortunately there's no such thing. You could keep Lossless AND MP3 versions in your library, but that would be a pain in the hindquarters.

    There are people who write scripts, This link would be a start
    http://dougscripts.com/itunes/script...ipodaudiofiles

    Doug's scripts is one of the better resources for scripts that I've found

  23. #23
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    Thanks. At least for now I probably won't mind keeping both lossless and MP3 files on the external until space becomes an issue. Just wasn't sure if you could just drop files into the iPod or if it just did a synch thing with iTunes and took whatever was loaded in.

  24. #24
    Boatman1
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    ever time you convert you loose something, so rip it to DVD format for your backup
    get a car deck that has an SD slot and load some cards with mp3's not all are Ipod ready
    but most are mp3 ready, a hard drive can be corupted but a DVD can't.

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