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  1. #26
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Accurate yes, but

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    That's exactly what I'm looking for. I want it accurate, not colored.

    BTW, I saw somewhere that the kW series are the only amps MF still makes in the UK, is that your understanding?

    I had the A3.2 integrated, and I don't know where it was made, but the build quality was impeccable.
    I really don't think your going to get more/better bass because of the high power. You WILL be able to play louder and longer without your amp frying, but remember that the 3.6r is a fused speaker. I've got a fistful of burned tweeter fuses to prove it! And all done with either the PS Audio (hard to do), or MF amp (not so hard to do). Amp RMS watt ratings are one thing, but the 3.6r tweeter fuse is rated for about ~275 watts (that's JUST for the tweeter), and the A3cr had NO problem producing that much current into a transient.

    Don't know about MF moving the production out of country, but I do know that Antony Michaelson is a stickler for quality. EVERY piece of MF gear I've seen is built to last. Even if he now makes them overseas (not China please!) I would expect them to be top quality.
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  2. #27
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    I really don't think your going to get more/better bass because of the high power.
    Well I should still have the Logos when the speakers arrive, so I'll find out. If it turns out there's no significant difference, I'll keep the Logos and send the MF back.

    But about 80% of the opinions I've seen on this point say large amounts of power from a good, clean amp will give you a tighter, more controlled bass.
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  3. #28
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    80% spouting hearsay as truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Well I should still have the Logos when the speakers arrive, so I'll find out. If it turns out there's no significant difference, I'll keep the Logos and send the MF back.

    But about 80% of the opinions I've seen on this point say large amounts of power from a good, clean amp will give you a tighter, more controlled bass.
    That sounds about right.

    Fact is that about ~20 watts or so into the 3.6's get my room about as loud as I like it.

    Watch as the Logos gives you a warmer bass signature than the MF.
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  4. #29
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^ OK, but two points, once again:

    1) Your loudness preference is likely different from mine, as is your taste in music and your room;

    2) I'm not really talking about volume per se, I'm really talking about control (i.e. dynamics).

    I've noticed that when people compare the low-power versus high-power amps with Magnepans, the people who tout the low-power amps consistently talk about a smoother (sometimes described as warmer or "more musical") sound.

    I suspect this is really a lack of dynamics. I've played both low and comparatively high-power amps on my 1.6QRs, and I noticed the same thing -- what we're really talking about is how the amp renders extreme changes in volume, e.g. rapid attack and decay.

    This is just a matter of preference I suppose, but I really like those dramatic displays of dynamics, particularly at high volumes and bass levels. To me, they tend to grab your attention and make the sound more realistic and "there". Listen to a really fast solo on a stand-up acoustic bass, a bass-drum heavy drum solo, or a heavy synth line played at high speed. I find it very pleasing to hear all the ins-and-outs, if you know what I mean.

    It's certainly a more aggressive, up-front sound, but for my tastes and my music, that's very appropriate.
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  5. #30
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Did you get your 3.6's yet?
    Are those 1.6's on their way to me yet?

    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  6. #31
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ^^ OK, but two points, once again:

    1) Your loudness preference is likely different from mine, as is your taste in music and your room;.
    My musical preferences run the gamut from Ravel to Korn. On any given day I'm libel to blow a fuse or two. Basically there's nothing that CAN be done to my speakers that I haven't already done. (save modifying them)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ^^
    2) I'm not really talking about volume per se, I'm really talking about control (i.e. dynamics)..
    Control is more a function of damping factor. It's TRUE that high powered amps (SS that is) tend to have higher damping factors. The MF Kw has a huge damping factor, much more than the Pathos does. That being said, the 3.6's don't respond to damping factor nearly as much as some cone speakers. Hook the MF Kw series to a speaker like the B&W 802 and you'll think that someone turned on the subwoofer! That's not true with the maggies. Each speaker/amp system is going to respond differently, so there's no hard-and-fast rules.

    In any case your going to have a chance to hear for youself. The best thing is to have an open mind about it.
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  7. #32
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Did you get your 3.6's yet?
    Are those 1.6's on their way to me yet?

    Haven't gotten them yet, but I promise, on the day they get sent out, I'm putting up an ad for my 1.6QRs -- they'll be a very good deal, because they're in pristine condition (only nine months old).
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  8. #33
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    In any case your going to have a chance to hear for youself. The best thing is to have an open mind about it.
    Oh I definitely will -- there'd be no point in spending a few thousand extra on an amp if it doesn't offer any improvement, and I made sure returning the MF would be an option.
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  9. #34
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Control is more a function of damping factor. It's TRUE that high powered amps (SS that is) tend to have higher damping factors. The MF Kw has a huge damping factor, much more than the Pathos does.
    Right, the specs say the damping factor is > 200 (I assume that's against an 8 ohm load - so it's something like > 100 for the 3.6Rs.) I don't know what it is for the Pathos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    That being said, the 3.6's don't respond to damping factor nearly as much as some cone speakers.
    Do you mean to say they result in a lower damping factor because they're 4 ohm speakers? (My understanding is that damping factor is the speaker load divided by the output impedance, in which case you get half the damping factor compared to 8 ohm speakers).

    If you mean something else, I'd be interested to hear why -- It's not obvious to me why the damping factor would make less of a difference on something like ribbons as compared with cones.
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  10. #35
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Oh I definitely will -- there'd be no point in spending a few thousand extra on an amp if it doesn't offer any improvement, and I made sure returning the MF would be an option.
    There's always a point to keep TWO quality amps around also. A friend has THREE, and it's always fun to switch them back and forth. Keeps your ears on their toes so to speaker..

    Oh: the MF Kw is a Reference Quality amp. Your Pathos, no matter how much you like it isn't. The MF is going to have a ruler flat responce from unity up to god only knows how high. The Kw will drive ANY speaker, including the esoterics with absurdly low resisitance. The Kw is also capable of producing enough current to KILL you. Nothing to be too concerned about, but just make sure the amp power is OFF when you go to change speaker cables.

    In any case "DON'T PANIC!"

    Sorry, we were just talking about Douglas Adams so I had to slip that in.
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  11. #36
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    The MF has more like 1000+ damping factor

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Right, the specs say the damping factor is > 200 (I assume that's against an 8 ohm load - so it's something like > 100 for the 3.6Rs.) I don't know what it is for the Pathos.

    Do you mean to say they result in a lower damping factor because they're 4 ohm speakers? (My understanding is that damping factor is the speaker load divided by the output impedance, in which case you get half the damping factor compared to 8 ohm speakers).

    If you mean something else, I'd be interested to hear why -- It's not obvious to me why the damping factor would make less of a difference on something like ribbons as compared with cones.
    They only say >200 because once your past that it's nearly a moot point.

    The 3.6's use magneplanar tech for the main panels & ribbon for the tweeter. Both those techs are nominally resistive in nature. Damping factor comes into play when the speakers motor (voice coil) sends back current into the amp. With some speakers the current sent back can be quite significant. This is a reactive load, and the more reactive the better an amp with a high damping factor. A speaker like the Scintilla is highly reactive (the ribbons it uses are basically unrolled capacitors) and hooking that speaker up to an amp with a low damping factor will result in a "China Syndrome" for your amp. You ABSOLUTLY need a MF Kw with a speaker like that
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  12. #37
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    The Kw is also capable of producing enough current to KILL you. Nothing to be too concerned about, but just make sure the amp power is OFF when you go to change speaker cables.
    Thanks for the warning! Don't worry though, I wouldn't think of changing cables w/o turing the thing off (I always thought it could damage your amp to power it up w/o speakers connected, since you've got no load on the current).

    BTW, am I going to have a problem with tripping my circuit breakers? I don't know how many amps this thing will pull from the wall, but it talks about a peak-to-peak current of 160 amps -- which sounds like a helluva lot of juice to me! Obviously most of this is going to be stored in capacitors, but... sheesh!
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  13. #38
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Once I made a mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Thanks for the warning! Don't worry though, I wouldn't think of changing cables w/o turing the thing off (I always thought it could damage your amp to power it up w/o speakers connected, since you've got no load on the current).

    BTW, am I going to have a problem with tripping my circuit breakers? I don't know how many amps this thing will pull from the wall, but it talks about a peak-to-peak current of 160 amps -- which sounds like a helluva lot of juice to me! Obviously most of this is going to be stored in capacitors, but... sheesh!
    And moved my old PS Audio 200c while it was on and the music playing. One of the leads slipped off the post and contacted the opposite lead. In a second the 8 amp rail fuse had blown, and my cables spades were WELDED together! That amp could swing 70 amps. With 160 in play you could start a small thermo-nuclear reaction.

    No worries about the main breakers unless you get some Scintillas, then all bets are off. (and your electric bill is off the charts!)
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  14. #39
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^^ Great, thanks - good to know I want have to worry about installing a 20 amp line anytime soon.

    MF puts protectors on the binding posts to prevent shocks. But it's odd that the amp has two pairs of binding posts for each side, what's up with that?
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  15. #40
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    some people swear by bi-wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ^^^ Great, thanks - good to know I want have to worry about installing a 20 amp line anytime soon.

    MF puts protectors on the binding posts to prevent shocks. But it's odd that the amp has two pairs of binding posts for each side, what's up with that?
    No less than Vince Bruzzese, Owner of Totem Acoustic told me flat out that using bi-wire is the only way to go. Even their little "Mites" are set up for bi-wiring.
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  16. #41
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Well I have my 1.6QRs biwired, but that's using a 1-into-2 configuration (one terminal on the amp end, two on the speaker end). I hadn't heard of amps being setup with two sets of posts, but I'll give it a try.
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  17. #42
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Maybe Magneplanars aren't ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ...
    This is just a matter of preference I suppose, but I really like those dramatic displays of dynamics, particularly at high volumes and bass levels. To me, they tend to grab your attention and make the sound more realistic and "there". Listen to a really fast solo on a stand-up acoustic bass, a bass-drum heavy drum solo, or a heavy synth line played at high speed. I find it very pleasing to hear all the ins-and-outs, if you know what I mean.

    It's certainly a more aggressive, up-front sound, but for my tastes and my music, that's very appropriate.
    ... the speakers for you after all. They are seldom recommended for people who like punchy bass at high levels. Maybe Cerwin Vegas ...

  18. #43
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^ I suppose you're joking, but yeah I know the Magnepans don't have that punch-you-in-the-chest type bass, and I'm fine with that. What I want is quality, not quantity, and not punchy.

    There was a time when I listened to a lot of punk rock, and harder/noisier rock stuff (think Iggy and the Stooges), and I still have it in my collection but it isn't what grabs me anymore. These days I want resolution and refinement.

    I got past the testosterone peak a looonnng time ago.
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  19. #44
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    After my search i have found that bass is really needed and while Apogees have much more bass then Maggies it was not after i got my new speakers, with flat respsonse to 13Hz under full power that i knew what i was missing. I would couple the Maggies with a Velodyne HGS18 or something of that caliper. My new system uses motion sensors on the ribbons to accelarate and match the subwoofer, properbly a reason for the perfect integration which cannot really be copied but oh man, never without a beast of subwoofers again.

    Well, at least for me ;-)

    PS: Resolution and refinement is fine, but you can have this and slam! ;-) Cause the slam is on the CD, MP3 or whatever.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Florian; 10-31-2006 at 12:04 PM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #45
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Subwoofers

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    After my search i have found that bass is really needed and while Apogees have much more bass then Maggies it was not after i got my new speakers, with flat respsonse to 13Hz under full power that i knew what i was missing. I would couple the Maggies with a Velodyne HGS18 or something of that caliper. My new system uses motion sensors on the ribbons to accelarate and match the subwoofer, properbly a reason for the perfect integration which cannot really be copied but oh man, never without a beast of subwoofers again.
    ...

    Cheers
    I've been living without a subwoofer for my MG 1.6QR's for a while, but something has got to be done. I really miss the bottom octave.

  21. #46
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Actually it's more like a half octave

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I've been living without a subwoofer for my MG 1.6QR's for a while, but something has got to be done. I really miss the bottom octave.
    4 or five full notes at best. There's no instrument save a church organ that produces a note lower than 30hz.
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  22. #47
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    If you guys say so. Listen to Pink Floyd the Wall Live and use a subwoofer with a clean 16Hz response and tell me if you find anything missing on a Maggie 20.1 or big Apogee when the wall is crashing down.....my guess is : Yes
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  23. #48
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Flo! I was wondering when you were going to chime in (no pun intended).

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    4 or five full notes at best. There's no instrument save a church organ that produces a note lower than 30hz.
    It isn't a pure tone at 30hz though; that may be the fundamental frequency, but there are lots of subharmonics and other things going on in the sound.

    My Behringer unit has a Real Time Analyzer that goes down to 20hz, so I can confirm that a lot of music goes that low.

    However, I don't have any huge desire to hear it. For one thing, once you get below 35hz at high volume, stuff around the apartment starts rattling. And I don't find it particularly musical, for my tastes. So I bought a subwoofer, but ended up ditching it.
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  24. #49
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well my advice is straight forward as usual, keep the Pathos Logos for the Maggie 3.6 The Maggie has limits in the bass department, in the resolution and slam. They are quite a bit higher then on your 1.6 and the difference is definetley worth the money in my book. But if you really wanna move ahead then i would suggest some Apogees. If its Maggie you want, then i would stick with the Logos!
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  25. #50
    Forum Regular Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    ^^^ I'll definitely try it out along side the MF. I'll be surprised if it equals or betters the MF, but I'll keep an open ear, so-to-speak.
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