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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubslewis
Feanor, Geoffcin
Thanks, that's the kind of talk I love to hear! Not sure I'm ready (either technically or financially) for Florian style upgrade just yet.
And Woocihfer, I promise to be as unbiased and neutral as possible. The first place I'm going to carries a pretty good selection of some pretty good brands. I'm willing to bet that I'll hear something as good or better than a Maggie 1.6. But I'm also not afraid to bet that they'll cost more to substantially more than the 1.6.
Not that I've heard a terrific amount of speakers in my life, but there are only 2 times that I ever remember hearing a speaker that made my heart skip: On my first speaker foray in 1973 when the guy suddenly turned on a large Altec (or Altec Lansing) that absolutely stunned me, and the other was in 1988 when I heard a Magnaplanar. But I promise to maintain an open mind.
The dealer that I'm going to is only open on Saturday and Sunday. Can't go today or tomorrow, so have to wait til next weekend. Delays, delays, delays #*&^*#!.
No need to go as nuts as me, i am just here to inform you along with others who actually have personal experience that they do not suffer from problems such as bass, dynamics etc... often so called upon from the box crowd. I do this ONLY to make sure you dont rule them out because *someone writes a bunch of junk.
Enjoy!
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FWIW, I owned a pair of Magnepan MGLR1 planars that sounded fantastic with both my Carver TFM-35x, and later with a McIntosh MC7200 power amp. The Mac especially had the high current necessary to really make my Maggies sing, and not only to orchestral/chamber music and jazz, but also to techno, rock, and full-blown pipe organ recordings! Of course I also had a DIY 1000 watt 15" powered subwoofer to help out with the bass duties, but my Maggie/Mac combo (controlled by an AMC tube pre) was truely anything but lacking! And I've only heard a few high-end loudspeakers that could truely disappear given the right room and speaker placement, and that from a pair of entry-level Magnepans not much more expensive than the ever-popular MMGs! Imagine what their TOTL models can do!
I may have gone a totally different route with my loudspeaker purchases of late (from 2-way cones 'n' domes, horns, and even fullrange single-drivers) and still enjoying the different varieties along the way. But I'll always have a warm spot in my heart for planars and someday may own another pair again. Good luck on your quest for good sound.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
I'm not sure that I would call it pessimistic, just relaying my listening impressions with a very similar combination to the one that he would use. His observations could very well differ from mine. I'm only recommending that he try those speakers with his amp before buying, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that given the comments about how the Maggies respond to the amp combination more so than most conventional speakers.
In the interest of accuracy once again, I should stress that I have no problem with anything Woochifer says. This guy is definitely one of the most knowledgeable folks on this forum when it comes to gear. And he's absolutely right when he says you should try out the specific amp/speaker combo you intend to use, especially when it comes to Maggies.
And Wooch, since you're in the SF Bay Area, you're cordially invited to come by anytime to check out my rig. I'll put on a few of the HDAD/DVD discs you so helpfully recommended to me, so you can hear the 1.6s pumping out pure 24bit/96khz sound!
I have to tell you, it's a helluva treat -- and thanks largely to you, because I never would have known about those discs if you hadn't alerted me to them.
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Oh yes, and he is definetly welcome to my home too. Here you can experience 115db plus (if you want, its a tad loud) of uncompressed, dynamics (not to mention micro dynamics), bass to 19Hz without the help of a box, completely colorless sound with the help of the one driver material and no mass while having a huge driving force. Not to forget the scale and speed. Let me know when your coming so i can break out the beer and Sauerkraut to forget our sour days. I do like Woochs opinion in the HT section but not for planars, absolutly not. Otherwise, he is a great guy!
:16:
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Always prudent advice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
I'm not sure that I would call it pessimistic, just relaying my listening impressions with a very similar combination to the one that he would use. His observations could very well differ from mine. I'm only recommending that he try those speakers with his amp before buying, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that given the comments about how the Maggies respond to the amp combination more so than most conventional speakers.
That is, to listen to a component at home in one's own system before committing to buy.
But regarding Maggies, I don't agree that they are fundamentally more difficult to match with amplifiers than other, typical speakers. Yes, they are 4 ohm and they do require power at that rating, but they are a stable, non-problematic load. Based on its specs, the ADCOM 5400 should be more than adequate.
In the past couple of years I have driven Maggies, (MMG, MG 1.6), with the following:
- Phase Linear 400, (360 watts/channel @ 4 ohms)
- Marantz 250, (125 @ 8)
- Harmon Kardon 330A receiver, (about 40 @ 4)
- NAD C270, (200 @ 4)
- Monarchy SM70 Pro, Class A, stereo mode, (about 40 @ 4)
- Monarchy SM70 Pro, pair, bridged, (about 100 @4)
- Bel Canto eVo2i 'digital' integrated, (200 @ 4)
The Maggies sounded great -- though different -- with all these amps. To be sure, the Maggies were able to drive out the strengths of each amp -- the Bel Canto was best but the bridged Monarchy's were very, very close.
Well, there was a problem with the Marantz 250: it blew its output transistors :sad: . I suspect this legacy amp wasn't rated for 4 ohms; anyway it had been sitting on the owner's shelf for years and, thankfully, he didn't care about the damage.
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Is it true that Maggies "wear out"? I have heard that they become problematic through time...or is this another planar urban-legend?
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Not really anymore than other speakers
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Originally Posted by safeharbor
Is it true that Maggies "wear out"? I have heard that they become problematic through time...or is this another planar urban-legend?
Although they do have a long break-in period. On the true ribbon models 3.6r & 20.1 the ribbon will eventually need replacing, but it's service life is like 10,000 hrs at moderate volume, so that's really not a worry. It's also easily replaced.
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On of the great thing about maggies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
To be sure, the Maggies were able to bring out the strengths of each amp
Is that the load is as close to purely resisitive as it gets in a speaker. This lets the amp show it's true colors, rather than interacting with the speakers varible load. For all of Florians ranting about how wonderful his ribbon speakers are because of the low mass design, the fact is that his speakers are one of the most highly capacitive designs ever made. A lot of the good from the low mass is negated by the highly reactive load put on the amp.
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Magnaplanars will be a very different experience than the Bose speakers you previously owned. So listen critically because you are the one who has to live with them.
I own a pair of SMGs which maggie purists agree is argueably the smallest and most anemic of the Magnapan lineup past and present.
I drive them with a pair of humble NAD 2155 amps bridged mono which I purchased off eBay for $130 each.
I listen to everything from Van Halen to Offenbach, Dave Grusin to the Back Street Boys.They graciously interpret everything I've thrown at them. Listen and decide for yourself. These littlest of planar speakers can create some immense sound pressure in my 13x18 listening room. Imagine what the bigger panels can achieve!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Well guess what, the big Altec "Voice of the Theater" A7s are available again. These are very different from the Maggies because they are horn-loaded speaker that can be easily driven by low powered amps.
I thought they had experienced a graceful death long ago. They do honk ("my heart goes where the wild goose goes") rather horribly in the midrange to these ears. $12k a pair? I'd have a pair of 20.1s in a New York minute. There is no comparison.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I thought they had experienced a graceful death long ago. They do honk ("my heart goes where the wild goose goes") rather horribly in the midrange to these ears. $12k a pair? I'd have a pair of 20.1s in a New York minute. There is no comparison.
rw
They were out of production for a long time, with a lot of older theaters ripping out their Altec VOT/Western Electric tube systems in favor of JBL screen speakers and higher powered SS amps. But, with the recent interest in low powered SET amps and large horn drivers, Altec probably figured it was good time to bring back one of the best known horn designs this side of the Klipschorn. Plus, Altec recently relaunched their home audio speaker line, and the VOT A-7 is the company's statement piece and link to its illustrious history.
In all fairness though, most of the Altec VOT installations I'd heard over the years were in less than ideal acoustical environments. (For one thing, these speakers are way too big for most homes) The ones I've heard were either playing pre-digital analog optical film soundtracks in an echoey theater with minimal acoustical controls, which would sound horrible played through any speakers, including the 20.1s; or setup in a reverberant auditorium/gymnasium. Plenty of the Altec VOT speakers did make their way into home environments, so obviously these speakers have a following.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
For all of Florians ranting about how wonderful his ribbon speakers are because of the low mass design, the fact is that his speakers are one of the most highly capacitive designs ever made. A lot of the good from the low mass is negated by the highly reactive load put on the amp.
That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)
But in the end, i was not ranting. I think you just got grumpy becaue i mentioned the high mass, non-unifed drivers and resoance problems on the Maggie panels?
Take it easy and please read more carefully and experience some. You are more then welcome to come here and we will compare the "EASE" to a MG 3.6 and the 20.1 and you will see that the DIVAS are much easier to drive and controll.
PS: I asume your not the "bashing guy" either, and you know that having the same driver material for every single driver, using true ribbons (as found in your 3.6 and the 20.1) is incredibly good and the Apogees do this exellently.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Plus, Altec recently relaunched their home audio speaker line, and the VOT A-7 is the company's statement piece and link to its illustrious history.
I wish for them the best. At least they've upgraded the crossover, raised the corner frequency from 500 to 900 and use Cardas connectors! Back in the seventies when I was in my teens, I lusted for a pair. They looked cool, had great specs, and of course had the industry recognition. That was until I actually heard them and was deflated. Shouty, hard, and thin sounding. Like first hearing the vaunted AR-LST. You mean Julian was wrong?
That was about the time I learned that most conventional specifications were next to useless to convey any meaningful sort of information. On the other hand, I still vividly remember first hearing a pair of strange looking hinged, three segment room dividers. They were driven by a pair of tube amps from a virtually unknown company up in the frozen land of Minnesota. They sounded quite different than any other speaker I had ever heard. I can tell you to this day what was playing. My ears told me this was more like the real thing. That was a pivotal experience for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
(For one thing, these speakers are way too big for most homes)
Apparently, Altec doesn't think so. In their brochure, they say the ideal listening distance when separated by 8 feet is between 8 and 16 feet. I could easily accomodate that in my 30x15 room. They claim response down to 35 hz. Well, a Hyundai Elantra can do 130...with a stiff tail wind going downhill. :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)
But in the end, i was not ranting. I think you just got grumpy becaue i mentioned the high mass, non-unifed drivers and resoance problems on the Maggie panels?
Take it easy and please read more carefully and experience some. You are more then welcome to come here and we will compare the "EASE" to a MG 3.6 and the 20.1 and you will see that the DIVAS are much easier to drive and controll.
PS: I asume your not the "bashing guy" either, and you know that having the same driver material for every single driver, using true ribbons (as found in your 3.6 and the 20.1) is incredibly good and the Apogees do this exellently.
Although the resistance of the Apogge's is almost constant, they are a reactive load. This is a referrence to the capacitive load they show an amplifier. This can cause instability in amps that have less than stellar power supplies. Lots of amps do not like highly capacitive loads. This is why amps like the Classe, Krell, ML or other robustly constructed ones are needed. BTW, some highly regarded speaker cable has this same capacitive reactance.:cool:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
Although the resistance of the Apogge's is almost constant, they are a reactive load. This is a referrence to the capacitive load they show an amplifier. This can cause instability in amps that have less than stellar power supplies. Lots of amps do not like highly capacitive loads. This is why amps like the Classe, Krell, ML or other robustly constructed ones are needed. BTW, some highly regarded speaker cable has this same capacitive reactance.:cool:
I agree, but who runs Apogees with little Receivers or 4 watt tube amps? :confused5:
People who buy them know that it takes good matching and stable amps.
Hihi, i wish i had the cash to buy Magnan speaker cable. By the way, i am picking up a second pair of DIVAS with active x-o in italy. :5:
PS: Most good non-commerical amps can run them....but it takes a lot more to achieve close to perfection. I bought some Sphinx PJ12 Monoblocks too for the midrange ribbons.
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I'm really quite shocked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
That is very untrue, and you would know this if you looked at the models. The DIVA is the easiest to drive Apogees of all times. It is EASIER then your 3.6 and then the 1.6. With a resistance from 3.2 to 4.3 Ohms and a efficency of 86db they are VERY easy. Now the Scinitla and Fullrange is a different story. (Eventough the Scintilla only need 45wpc BUT a amp like the Classe DR3-VHC)
I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.
If you use the original ribbons, yes but EVEN THEN not on all the models and my point about the different drivers, textures and weight plus resonant points remain valid. The MG20.1 and MG20 is going the direction of Apogee and for a good sonic reason too!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffcin
I would have expected someone of your obvious intelligence to understand a little about electrical engineering. The design that apogee uses in it's drivers, a metalized plastic, is essentially an unrolled capacitor.
You are absolutely correct. However, if I have it right the ribbon element in Magnepans is not metalized plastic. A strip of pure metal should have low or no capacitive reactance.The Magnepan ribbon tweeter is one of the best if not the best tweeter I have heard. The 3.6 R's that a buddy has sound fantastic. BTW The person he purchased the 3.3 R's from had replaced them with a pair of MG 20's. They were as much better than the 3.6's as the 3.6's are over the 1.6's. They are almost enough to make me switch. NOT!:cool:
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You are correct
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeE SP9
You are absolutely correct. However, if I have it right the ribbon element in Magnepans is not metalized plastic. A strip of pure metal should have low or no capacitive reactance.The Magnepan ribbon tweeter is one of the best if not the best tweeter I have heard. The 3.6 R's that a buddy has sound fantastic. BTW The person he purchased the 3.3 R's from had replaced them with a pair of MG 20's. They were as much better than the 3.6's as the 3.6's are over the 1.6's. They are almost enough to make me switch. NOT!:cool:
The ribbons in the Magnepan ribbon tweeter are pure ultra-thin aluminum. The capacitance is non-existant, and it's a purely resistive load (3 ohms). There's a couple of problems with the tweeter though, although sound quality is not one of them.
One; They wear out. If you like to play you music loud, pretty much expect to replace the tweeter within 5 years.
Two; They don't play low. The crossover is set pretty so your not getting a lot of range covered by this amazing driver. That being said, play ANYTHING with a lot of high harmonics like brass/ big band music, and your in for a shock on what you were missing. Well, not you personally, as you've got some great speakers, but I've had a few friends with pretty good speakers get the glazed-over look when I let them here some BB music through the 3.6's.
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Getting glazed looks from guests when first hearing my ESL's is only half the fun. Having them stand next to one while it is playing and ask me where the speakers are is even more fun. They usually ask what size cones they contain. It is sometimes quite difficult to explain how ESL's contain no woofers, tweeters, magnets or cones of any kind. The interfaces and AC cords cause even more questions. The average person has some difficulty understanding the electrostatic principle. I have learned not to mention the kind of voltages that are used. Big fun!!! :cool:
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End of phase 1
Getting back to the original theme and intent of this thread that I (proudly) started, I now own a pair of Magnapan 1.6's . Will arrive next week. Bought them from a elderly gent, retired electrical engineer, who has a small store in Baltimore. I listened to everything he had, unfortunately not a very wide variety (the whole Magnapan line, several Spendors, couple other small speakers).
Also got a B & K 125.S2 amplifier at a very good price with stipulation that I could return it and upgrade if it proved insufficient. Had originally ordered an ADCOM 5400, but cancelled it because it was backordered and also because it wouldn't be avaiable until a defective one was returned to the factory for repair and refurbishment. That sounds very fishy.
Anyway, onward and upward.
p.s This is an outstanding forum. I have learned half a gazillion things in the past two months. And it's tuition free to boot!
thanks,
Bill
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You won't regret it
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubslewis
Getting back to the original theme and intent of this thread that I (proudly) started, I now own a pair of Magnapan 1.6's .
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Also got a B & K 125.S2 amplifier at a very good price with stipulation that I could return it and upgrade if it proved insufficient.
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Bill
Congradulations. You will enjoy the 1.6's. Haven't heard them, but I'm inclined to believe the the B&K is better amp than the Adcom.
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Grats on the 1.6! A wise choice and welcome to the planar world :-)
I would reconsider the amp tough, personally.
-Flo
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Congrats on the 1.6's. Just remember they need to be broken in for best sound. After playing music for a couple of weeks you'll understand.:cool:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florian
Grats on the 1.6! A wise choice and welcome to the planar world :-)
I would reconsider the amp tough, personally.
-Flo
Florian,
Thanks. Lets assume that, after adequate break-in period and intense listening, I decide to upgrade amplifier to better or much better status. This runs me into dillemma # 2.
My grand plan is to utilize the Magnapans alone for the bulk of my music listening, but to also employ them as front speakers in my home theater setup. This combination dictates that I use the pre amp outputs of my a/v receiver (Yamaha 2500) to get the signal to the amplifier and hence the Magnapans.
I'm assuming the preamp capability of the a/v receiver (packed in with 7 other amplifiers, tuners, sound processors, etc) will be average at best. Compared with a good stand-alone preamp, how much sonic quality am I sacraficing by running good speakers thru a good amplifier from an inferior preamp? I can live with a little bit, but certainly not a big bit.
Using a stand alone preamp for the Magnapans will essentially separate my music from my home theater. I cannot do this since I only have one adequate room in the house that is suitable for either.
If I had to choose priorities, it would definitely be music first, home theater second. Due to life's limitations, however, I seem to be trying to combine an apple and an orange.
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