Well . . . doggies !!

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  • 04-04-2013, 06:52 AM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Yeah but we still are not talking about a fight trained pit bull, we are talking about a well dressed man with a little dropkicking dog. We obviously would have to let people make an educated and well thought out decision as to what would be inappropriate. But a guy with a tiny dog just wanting to pray for a few minutes should just been ignored.

    He did not go out into the street inviting everyone with a pet to join him, it was an isolated case with no harm intended or delivered.

    All this is exactly why they keep electing Popes that are so friggin old. Because they do not want CHANGE in any fashion and by choosing those that are closed minded and not in touch with reality, they keep up the hard line of My Way or Hell.

    I personally would have tried to pet the pooch, not kick it out and I don' have any pets at this time.

    But laws are'nt drafted that way...y'know, "laws"...
  • 04-04-2013, 06:58 AM
    ForeverAutumn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    All this is exactly why they keep electing Popes that are so friggin old. Because they do not want CHANGE in any fashion and by choosing those that are closed minded and not in touch with reality, they keep up the hard line of My Way or Hell.

    I hardly think that the Pope has time to care about whether this dog should have been in the church. Let's stick to the discussion at hand, an isolated incident, and not turn this into a discussion about religion. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with this.
  • 04-04-2013, 06:59 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    But laws are'nt drafted that way...y'know, "laws"...

    Wait, are we talking about Laws or Stupid Rules?
  • 04-04-2013, 11:11 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    I'm just playing Devil's Advocate...to an extent..."just sayin'"...

    ...I love animals, poin of fact, there are 4 pf them in my household...that said, until you've been attacked by one the high road is the easy road....

    I don't see any connection to the OP's issue. Or are you saying the only reason for that church's pet exclusion policy was to prevent vicious attacks? That I doubt.
  • 04-04-2013, 12:21 PM
    ForeverAutumn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    I don't see any connection to the OP's issue. Or are you saying the only reason for that church's pet exclusion policy was to prevent vicious attacks? That I doubt.

    Why don't we ask the OP instead of making all sort of assumptions.

    Menschenstimme, WHY did you ask the dog to leave? Is there an existing rule of no dogs in the church? Were you afraid of an attack or of the dog soiling the church? Were you concerned about allergies (that would be MY reason to exclude an animal from such a place).

    You have asked us to weigh in and have a discussion, but perhaps if we knew the reasons that you were not comfortable with the dog in church then we could have a more reasonable discussion. Cheers!
  • 04-04-2013, 12:37 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    Why don't we ask the OP instead of making all sort of assumptions.

    Menschenstimme, WHY did you ask the dog to leave? Is there an existing rule of no dogs in the church? Were you afraid of an attack or of the dog soiling the church? Were you concerned about allergies (that would be MY reason to exclude an animal from such a place).

    You have asked us to weigh in and have a discussion, but perhaps if we knew the reasons that you were not comfortable with the dog in church then we could have a more reasonable discussion. Cheers!

    So far stony silence from the original poster.
  • 04-04-2013, 12:56 PM
    dean_martin
    Reminds me of a story I read a couple months ago so I went and found it. Nobody "deserves" to be in church, but if anyone did, it would be this dog:

    Loyal dog attends mass every day at church where owner's funeral was held | Mail Online


    OK - the dog's name didn't sound like what I remembered so I did a little more checking. Here's the same story but the dog has a proper Italian name (the name I remember):

    German Shepherd Ciccio Attends Italian Church Of Santa Maria Assunta Mass Daily As He Mourns Late Owner Maria Lochi (PICTURES)

    If it's on the internet, then it's gotta be true, even if names are changed to protect the innocent, right?
  • 04-04-2013, 01:33 PM
    menschenstimme
    I would be the first to agree that this is an acceptable breach of etiquette.
  • 04-05-2013, 11:32 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I am so torn on this I feel like two half people. As everyone knows around here, I am a certified dog trainer and behaviorist so dogs for me should be welcomed everywhere except restaurants and grocery stores. Bringing your dog to church services would be a bit strange for me, as it does not seem appropriate. Bringing my dog to weekday prayers is perfectly fine to me as long as the dog is house trained, and is not disruptive. If the church has rules against dogs in the sanctuary, that is one thing. If there are no officially stated rules, or the rules are fuzzy, establish clear rules so everyone knows before they step into the church. This is because some churches embrace dogs(my best friends church does), and I have done lecture and seminars on dogs in churches. One thing I have found out(and this was mostly the elderly and widows) that there dogs are so close to them, they take them everywhere without thinking whether it is appropriate or not. Clear rules allows them to make the decision if they really want to go, or they just cannot leave their dogs. It also prevents surprises and indignation.
  • 04-05-2013, 12:27 PM
    JohnMichael
    Sir T one of the things that struck me was being made to tie the dog outside while the man prayed. If the dog was stolen I do not know how I would feel if I was the person who insisted the dog leave the church. I do know how I would feel if my dog was stolen. I am as protective over my dog as a parent is over a child. I just have trouble wrapping my mind around walking into church when there were no services to sit quietly and pray with your dog at your side.
  • 04-05-2013, 01:27 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Sir T one of the things that struck me was being made to tie the dog outside while the man prayed. If the dog was stolen I do not know how I would feel if I was the person who insisted the dog leave the church. I do know how I would feel if my dog was stolen. I am as protective over my dog as a parent is over a child. I just have trouble wrapping my mind around walking into church when there were no services to sit quietly and pray with your dog at your side.

    This is a major concern for sure. However, I am going to be honest. At my church I would never bring my dogs even to weekday open door private prayer situation. It is just not done there. Then on the other hand, I would have absolutely no problem bringing any of my dogs to my best friends church, they have been there many times for workshops and seminars already. I would not even blink bringing them to weekday prayers because so many members have dogs in his church.

    Since I really started training dogs as of recent, what has blown me away is how different cultures and races view their relationship with their dogs. Some races embrace dogs as a part of the family, others not so much. Some races firmly believe in dog training when they get dogs, others don't believe it is not necessary, and live with their dogs misbehavior. The great thing about this revelation is now I know who to market to when I go into this full time, and I know who not to waste my time with.
  • 04-05-2013, 03:36 PM
    JohnMichael
    I do not know if it is because I spend a lot of time alone and have known many lonely older folks but I find it easy to see where you could be out walking with your dog and want a place of peace. The gentleman may have had no thoughts of going to church until he approached it. I think an unkindness was done to him. Now of course if the dog began to bark or chew on a pew I could understand. Do your work but keep an eye open for any problems. I am not sure why I feel so strongly since I only attend churches for funerals. Hell I think my mom died just to get me back in a church.
  • 04-05-2013, 06:09 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    I do not know if it is because I spend a lot of time alone and have known many lonely older folks but I find it easy to see where you could be out walking with your dog and want a place of peace. The gentleman may have had no thoughts of going to church until he approached it. I think an unkindness was done to him. Now of course if the dog began to bark or chew on a pew I could understand. Do your work but keep an eye open for any problems. I am not sure why I feel so strongly since I only attend churches for funerals. Hell I think my mom died just to get me back in a church.

    I am much like you JM. Since the stereo knuckleheads moved out, I do spend a lot of time by myself these days(and trust me, I am okay with it). So my three dogs mean everything to me, and quite frankly I take them everywhere. When I travel between the bay area and Los Angeles, I drive so my dogs can go with me. The only time they don't travel with me is when I go to Orlando for work. When I go wine tasting in Napa, I look for dog friendly wineries(and there are a lot of them). When I go to the hot springs to relax for the weekend, I go to a dog friendly one called Wilbur Hot Springs. I even go to several dog friendly restaurants where they have outdoor spots for dogs. Since dogs are allowed on the studio lot, my Sh!tzu Bohdi often goes to work with me. Since there is always 5-6 dogs in the studio, nobody thinks twice about it.

    I hired three college kids that were interested in being dog trainers to do dog walking for me business(turns out this was rather financially lucrative move). One kid was hired exclusively to walk senior citizens dogs. He says every times he goes to walk them, the client is so concerned about anything happening, they say the same things over and over again. I know how deep the attachment seniors have to their television, and their pets - it is all they have when they get older. I don't necessarily think the man was intentionally wronged, but without clearly stated or posted rules about dogs in the church, and just think you have to use your own judgement. Whether right or wrong(based on whomever's perspective), the OP made a decision and I respect that decision. I would have made a different one based on the fact there was no official rules mention in the OP post. If the dog pissed in the sanctuary, It is at that point I would have asked the man to leave the dog outside, but I would have found a safe place and pointed it out to him. Same with barking and being disruptive. If the dog was sitting next to his owner quietly, I would not have said a thing - but that is me.

    One thing I do realize fully is people have different perspectives about dogs than you and I. While we wouldn't blink an eye about this, others would go into cardiac arrest behind the idea of bringing a dog into a church.
  • 04-05-2013, 07:38 PM
    Smokey
    I think the same two reasons that pets are not allowed on public transporattion (bus) can be applied to churche's public space too:

    1. Being distruptive
    2. Not sanitery
  • 04-06-2013, 01:45 AM
    JohnMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I think the same two reasons that pets are not allowed on public transporattion (bus) can be applied to churche's public space too:

    1. Being distruptive
    2. Not sanitery


    If you are the only one in there praying how can the dog be disruptive. The dog only disrupted the guy doing maintenance.

    There are a number of people who are not sanitary. Remember this did not happen during a service.
  • 04-06-2013, 03:22 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I think the same two reasons that pets are not allowed on public transporattion (bus) can be applied to churche's public space too:

    1. Being distruptive
    2. Not sanitery

    You just described half of the children in most church services. Runny noses, crawling on floors and making noise.
  • 04-06-2013, 10:59 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I think the same two reasons that pets are not allowed on public transporattion (bus) can be applied to churche's public space too:

    1. Being distruptive
    2. Not sanitery

    Doesn't that make the assumption that no dog is trained? Well Smoke, I have three dogs, and hundreds in my neighborhood that would strongly disagree with that assertion. My dogs have never crapped in the house, the car, Wineries, or dog friendly restaurants. They have transparently ridden with people in trams and golf carts with absolutely no problems. That is how well trained they are. My dogs are not the only dogs that are well trained and exposed this way.

    I must strongly disagree with your blanket statement that does not take into consideration various degrees of behavioral control.
  • 04-07-2013, 08:05 PM
    Smokey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    If you are the only one in there praying how can the dog be disruptive. The dog only disrupted the guy doing maintenance.

    The problem with that scenario is that once you let one dog in, then everybody else want to bring their dog in.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    You just described half of the children in most church services. Runny noses, crawling on floors and making noise.

    And add a dog to the mix, and you will have a circus :D

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir TT
    I must strongly disagree with your blanket statement that does not take into consideration various degrees of behavioral control.

    Dogs are animals and their instinct still are attached. So we probably can not predict their behaviour %100 of the time :)

    This happened few years ago. My brother had a friend who had a farm and this guy had three dogs. One collie dog (Lassie) who he kept inside that was very friendly, and two other dogs that looked like sheep were kept outside.

    One night we were over the farmer house, and he had the front door open. One of the sheep dog came inside the living room where the collie was, and as soon as the dogs saw each other, they got into one of the ferocious dog fight I ever seen where they tore up the living room. We had to get out of way so not to get bitten.

    Imagine that scenario happening in a church setting. You going to have a riot on your hand as poeple trying to get away.
  • 04-08-2013, 02:43 AM
    JohnMichael
    Wow Smokey we are a little far off script. Next we will be reading a dingo stole my baby. LOL
  • 04-08-2013, 02:53 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post

    Dogs are animals and their instinct still are attached. So we probably can not predict their behaviour %100 of the time :)

    Not sure how much news you pay attention to, but people are animals too and in no way can you predict their behavior 100% of the time, just like a dog.
  • 04-08-2013, 03:34 AM
    Smokey
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Wow Smokey we are a little far off script. Next we will be reading a dingo stole my baby. LOL

    LOL. The ending was kind of dramatic :D
  • 04-08-2013, 09:44 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    The problem with that scenario is that once you let one dog in, then everybody else want to bring their dog in.

    You cannot make that assumption. Some folks will, and some folks will not feel comfortable bringing their dogs to prayer.


    Quote:

    Dogs are animals and their instinct still are attached. So we probably can not predict their behaviour %100 of the time :)
    We cannot predict human behavior 100% of the time either, so should we also ban them from church as well. Smoke, you are being ridiculous here. You can only stretch a rubberband so far.

    Quote:

    This happened few years ago. My brother had a friend who had a farm and this guy had three dogs. One collie dog (Lassie) who he kept inside that was very friendly, and two other dogs that looked like sheep were kept outside.

    One night we were over the farmer house, and he had the front door open. One of the sheep dog came inside the living room where the collie was, and as soon as the dogs saw each other, they got into one of the ferocious dog fight I ever seen where they tore up the living room. We had to get out of way so not to get bitten.
    Your friend is obviously not very smart with dogs. If you have three dogs in your family, you do not keep them separate. They cannot be properly socialized that way. This is obvious as the nose on your face. When the outside dog steps in the inside dogs space, he is invading the inside dogs space. If the dogs are not properly socialized, that is a challenge to the inside dog. Dog are territorial you know. You come into my house uninvited and we are going to have a fight as well. The dog behavior was the fault of the dog owner, not the dogs. If the owner had brought the dogs together as a "pack", then there is no territorial behavior and therefore no challenge or fight.

    I will give you a good example on how to have three dogs in one's house. I have two Pit Bulls and a Sh!tzu. One Pit is 9 months old and I just got him three months ago. The other Pit and Sh!tzu have been with me four years. Before Ernesto came to the house, I had him and the two others meet on neutral ground(which would be like the church) so there would be no territorial issues. The meeting went great, and I brought Ernesto home. From day one Ernesto learned his place. I taught him where is bed was, and he goes to his bed only. The dog toys are shared, but I won't allow the Pits to focus on one toy, you share them all. The two Pits sometimes sleep in the same bed with each other, they are inseparable. No fights, no roughhousing(except dog play which is very healthy). As the leader in the household it is my job to make sure there is harmony in the house. This is where your friend failed so spectacularly.

    Quote:

    Imagine that scenario happening in a church setting. You going to have a riot on your hand as poeple trying to get away.
    This would not happen in a church setting Smoke. The church is neutral ground that neither dog can own. If the one dog came to another's house, then this could happen. But not on neutral territory neither dog has claimed. If two dog started barking at each other in the church, then you ask both owners to leave the dogs outside in a safe area that I choose(since I would supposedly know the place).

    I don't believe in just being arbitrary. If nothing happens, I won't do anything. If something happens I will do something.
  • 04-08-2013, 09:47 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    And it's in that spirit that I bring up the question, "What happens when people bring pitbulls to church?"...

    They get saved, filled with the holy spirit and begin to speak in tongues? :biggrin5:
  • 04-10-2013, 05:52 AM
    Worf101
    Munch, munch... slurp... Burp!!!! I just cain't believe that one of the longest and most passionate threads of recent memory is all about a pooch in a pew. Are you chittin' me? Main Catholic Church here has a special sermon for blessing pets once or twice a year. Still, most animals don't use the bathroom so that could be a problem. Still Jesus Christo was born in a manger... Chite no y'all got me doin it.

    Worf Out!
  • 04-10-2013, 09:42 AM
    JohnMichael
    I am afraid if I was the gentleman I would have completely ignored the gentleman interrupting my prayer. I would not see any wrong doing on my part so I would not leave. Now if I took my dog into a building hosting a cat show I would understand my need to leave. Several years ago I had been out on a photoshoot and decided to swing by the local mall afterwards. It was a hot day and I did not want to leave my equipment in the car. While I was walking around the mall cop told me I was not allowed to take pictures. I laughed and told him to get away from me. I do not suffer fools.