Turn on your TV!!!! Bin Laden Dead!!!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

That's horrible Sir T. Your poor aunt. How is she now?

She was very depressed yesterday(and so was I) that people were dancing around and cheering in NY. She said it reminded her of the people dancing in the streets in the Middle East when the towers fell. She says our cheering makes us pretty much like "them". I understand her point. She is doing much better than she was nine years ago for sure, but she has lost a bit of her sharp wit, and overall glow and warmth she used to have.

I spoke to a guy from another music site on-line last September. He was one of the people you saw running away as the first tower came down. His story is terrifying. After his experience he became an alcoholic; had a meltdown during a board meeting two years later, of which he would not discuss the details; has since been diagnosed with PTSD and bi-polar disorder, and is permanently psychologically disabled. Although is alive, he says that he also died that day as the man he woke up as on Sept. 11 no longer exists. His story broke my heart.

We think so often of the victims who died, but the one's who survived are still suffering.

I know many, many people still traumatized by 9/11. In a way, I still am. I took time off from work to help my aunt through this trauma - handling insurance issues(which was extremely difficult process, they asked me if we had the bodies and are sure of their deaths), working out the details of the will, and getter her financially straight. It was a very tough 6-7 months for sure.

I hadn't seen the news since Obama's speech last night, so I wasn't aware of the celebrating that was going on in Washington and New York until I got home from work. I'm glad that Osama is dead, but the celebrating does disturb me and reminds me of how some in the middle east celebrated the towers falling. Death should not be celebrated in this way. Now I understand Bobsticks comments.

Well, celebrating like this makes us no better than the anti-American folks. I always thought we were above this kind of behavior, and that makes us different. I guess not.

[ForeverAutumn]

I spoke to a guy from another music site on-line last September... His story is terrifying.

For anyone who is interested, the following link is this man's first-hand account of his experience on September 11, 2001. It was written on September 13, 2001. I got some of the details wrong in my previous post but the outcome was correct. It's a long read, but worthwhile.

http://arkangel3.wordpress.com/2010/...dst-the-ashes/

In response to OBL's death, he had this to say, "AND YES, I WANTED TO SEE THE MOTHERFUCKER WHO RUINED MY LIFE AND KILLED THREE THOUSAND HUMAN BEINGS IN FRONT OF ME DIE. NO TRIAL. NO JUSTICE OUTSIDE OF A FUCKING BULLET TO THE HEAD, WHICH IS WHAT HE GOT. "

Once you read his blog, you'll have no trouble understanding why he feels this way.

[JohnMichael]

I provide care for an elderly couple and this morning the wife said "we should kill all the terrorists" and of course I had to ask would that then make us terrorists? I am glad bin Laden is gone but I hope we do not make this a habit with our enemies.

[Feanor]

I provide care for an elderly couple and this morning the wife said "we should kill all the terrorists" and of course I had to ask would that then make us terrorists? I am glad bin Laden is gone but I hope we do not make this a habit with our enemies.

Ditto these sentiments. OBL should be a special case.

[Worf101]

I'm heartened by the thoughtful, intelligent discourse on this subject that has gone on here since OBL's death. Trust me it's not so nice on other sites right now. It's discussions like this, rathional yet heartfelt, that reminds me how much I love this site and you my friends. I'm so proud of you all.

Worf

[GMichael]

You relish the fact that a man of such evil has been erased. You relish that so much hard work went into finding him and eventually killing him. There is a huge difference between celebrating the death of a mass murderer and people celebrating the murder of innocents.(Brainwashed children don't know any better) It is of polar opposite points of view. We are not celebrating the death of a victim. He is and always was a criminal and certain perps are so far beyond saving or forgiving that they must be extinguished. I'm proud to be an American more now than perhaps in recent times. We set out to do something and we did it.

It is a different kind of celebration than say Happy New Year. Of course there is a sadness as well as we mourn the murdered. Many of the tears are not from exultation like winning the Super Bowl. There is joy in the accomplishment and sadness in needing the accomplishment. I say enjoy this moment as best you can especially if you are personally affected. You earned it and there is nothing wrong thinking I'm glad that SOB is dead.

You make many good points. I don't disagree with any of them. If it were anyone in my family killed on 9/11 I’d probably be more celebratory.

I do have one friend who was affected directly. He was a fireman in NYC at the time. He helped pull bodies from the rubble. Most of his fellow firemen were killed that day. He was promoted to chief because the Chief (and anyone else above him) were all killed. This guy used to be one of the most fun loving guys I knew. He always had a smile on his face and a joke on his lips. Now he just sits, looks down, and drinks. He avoids conversations with anyone and won’t make eye contact anymore. I’m sure that loosing all his coworkers was bad enough, but to then get promoted because of it tears at him.
I hope that this brings him some kind of piece.

[Robert-The-Rambler]

You make many good points. I don't disagree with any of them. If it were anyone in my family killed on 9/11 I’d probably be more celebratory.

I do have one friend who was affected directly. He was a fireman in NYC at the time. He helped pull bodies from the rubble. Most of his fellow firemen were killed that day. He was promoted to chief because the Chief (and anyone else above him) were all killed. This guy used to be one of the most fun loving guys I knew. He always had a smile on his face and a joke on his lips. Now he just sits, looks down, and drinks. He avoids conversations with anyone and won’t make eye contact anymore. I’m sure that loosing all his coworkers was bad enough, but to then get promoted because of it tears at him.
I hope that this brings him some kind of piece.

I remember that line from the movie Platoon and it is the reason I have only watched that movie once since I bought it. I can't handle the emotion all that well. I would have shot my commanding officer for his acts against civilians. There is something to be said about having honor.

Osama Bin Laden started a terrorist war against innocent civilians. I've always wondered what was the goal. But it is not worth trying to figure out. If you spend too much time staring into the abyss you will become what you seek to understand and vanquish. I wonder how many soldiers became that way; lost in a world of revenge and hatred never to be heard from again coming home never the same.

At least on the battlefield you are better prepared to deal with such horrors; at least you should be.

For a moment just allow me to dream
Of a place where we all can live free

I can almost hear the music
People dancing in the streets

It might be a rainy day
There are certainly challenges ahead
But please just allow me to dream......

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I'm heartened by the thoughtful, intelligent discourse on this subject that has gone on here since OBL's death. Trust me it's not so nice on other sites right now. It's discussions like this, rathional yet heartfelt, that reminds me how much I love this site and you my friends. I'm so proud of you all.

Worf

And thanks everybody. I feel really inspired to write today on this rainy day off from work. You have helped me sort this out in my head. I've got to write more reviews. I set out years ago to be the number one reviewer on Amazon.com.(Under my real name) If we can get Bin Laden then maybe I can move up in the rankings. Is it that important? Probably not but I know my reviews are way more thorough than others there so it is hard to compete as I don't have hundreds of simplistic brief reviews blowing smoke about how wonderful everything is. Afterall, I am the rambler.

[3LB]

Just a few thoughts:

Perhaps there are no photos of Bin Laden's body because it wasn't as surgical an operation as they would like to suggest.

Who cares if Bin Laden was unarmed or willing to surrender; he didn't exactly turn himself in. Sometimes criminals get killed during a capture attempt.

There may be a few old politicians and/or corporate types who didn't want Bin Laden on a witness stand for any reason.

I have no idea what we won exactly - this dude didn't defeat us militarily and I don't think that was his intent. This was a college educated man who was once an integral part of what Ronald Reagan called, "Afganistan's Freedom Fighters", funded by our CIA. He didn't think he was going to defeat our military or cripple the US public's resolve. He drew us into a long protracted war, leading us to believe he was hiding in the cragged hills of Afganistan, maybe even knowing that Bush couldn't resist returning to finish some old family business in Iraq. He wanted to slowly bleed our economy to the point its in now and by God, I think he succeeded.

I wasn't pleased to see people celebrating over this, but I'm just as disturbed by those who were lightning quick to try and discount Pres Obama's involvment or contribution, suggesting he was taking un-due credit, as if he was the first sitting President to do so. Equally ridiculous is some of the bloggers suggesting this was some sort of fabrication by Obama to make himself look good, as if the military had a long running history of lying for Democrat Presidents. It just smacks of desperation and I am loathe to think we have a campaign coming up in several months.

[Ajani]

Just a few thoughts:

Perhaps there are no photos of Bin Laden's body because it wasn't as surgical an operation as they would like to suggest.

Who cares if Bin Laden was unarmed or willing to surrender; he didn't exactly turn himself in. Sometimes criminals get killed during a capture attempt.

There may be a few old politicians and/or corporate types who didn't want Bin Laden on a witness stand for any reason.

I suspect the orders were "if he blinks, kill him"... but technically if he was totally passive in surrender, he should be captured...

Bringing him in alive would have been bad for everyone:

1) What if he escaped? Greatest embarrassment in US history and completely demoralizing to the troops and society...

2) Where and when do you have his trial? Up to now the major players in Guantanamo have yet to go to trial...

3) If you think possible reprisals against Americans is bad now, imagine if the reprisals were aimed at getting Bin Laden released from US custody... You'd probably see an attack a day...

I have no idea what we won exactly - this dude didn't defeat us militarily and I don't think that was his intent. This was a college educated man who was once an integral part of what Ronald Reagan called, "Afganistan's Freedom Fighters", funded by our CIA. He didn't think he was going to defeat our military or cripple the US public's resolve. He drew us into a long protracted war, leading us to believe he was hiding in the cragged hills of Afganistan, maybe even knowing that Bush couldn't resist returning to finish some old family business in Iraq. He wanted to slowly bleed our economy to the point its in now and by God, I think he succeeded.

The decision to settle old grudges in Iraq, instead of pursuing Bin Laden, was the reason why there is little to really celebrate... Bin Laden was allowed to accomplish way too much...

I wasn't pleased to see people celebrating over this, but I'm just as disturbed by those who were lightning quick to try and discount Pres Obama's involvment or contribution, suggesting he was taking un-due credit, as if he was the first sitting President to do so. Equally ridiculous is some of the bloggers suggesting this was some sort of fabrication by Obama to make himself look good, as if the military had a long running history of lying for Democrat Presidents. It just smacks of desperation and I am loathe to think we have a campaign coming up in several months.

Politics will always be nasty... And many persons fail to understand how crucial Obama's decision was... That operation could have been messed up a hundred ways:

1) They never had more than circumstantial evidence that Bin Laden was in that mansion... So they could have waited for months or even years for solid evidence, by which time he might have escaped or launched more terrorist attacks on the world...

2) Obama, could have followed the typical military advice of "bomb the area to hell" and then be stuck with ZERO proof that Bin Laden is dead... Which would be a major failure as Al Queda could easily continue business as usual while pretending that Bin Laden was never in the compound...

100) What if Bin Laden was not in the compound? Suppose it was just a hiding place for some big Pakistani drug dealer? Then the US just sent troops into a foreign territory - That's an act of war... Pakistan is clearly pissed about the US violating their sovereignty, but they can't complain much because it led to the killing of the world's most wanted terrorist... If it hadn't, then I assure you that Pakistan would not be as 'quiet' as they are now... In fact, the rest of region and even the world might be really pissed with the US as well...

The President's decision took balls and good judgement... So if he wants to take credit, it's his right to do so...

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I suspect the orders were "if he blinks, kill him"... but technically if he was totally passive in surrender, he should be captured...

Bringing him in alive would have been bad for everyone:

1) What if he escaped? Greatest embarrassment in US history and completely demoralizing to the troops and society...

2) Where and when do you have his trial? Up to now the major players in Guantanamo have yet to go to trial...

3) If you think possible reprisals against Americans is bad now, imagine if the reprisals were aimed at getting Bin Laden released from US custody... You'd probably see an attack a day...



The decision to settle old grudges in Iraq, instead of pursuing Bin Laden, was the reason why there is little to really celebrate... Bin Laden was allowed to accomplish way too much...



Politics will always be nasty... And many persons fail to understand how crucial Obama's decision was... That operation could have been messed up a hundred ways:

1) They never had more than circumstantial evidence that Bin Laden was in that mansion... So they could have waited for months or even years for solid evidence, by which time he might have escaped or launched more terrorist attacks on the world...

2) Obama, could have followed the typical military advice of "bomb the area to hell" and then be stuck with ZERO proof that Bin Laden is dead... Which would be a major failure as Al Queda could easily continue business as usual while pretending that Bin Laden was never in the compound...

100) What if Bin Laden was not in the compound? Suppose it was just a hiding place for some big Pakistani drug dealer? Then the US just send troops into a foreign territory - That's an act of war... Pakistan is clearly pissed about the US violating their sovereignty, but they can't complain much because it led to the killing of the world's most wanted terrorist... If it hadn't, then I assure you that Pakistan would not be as 'quiet' as they are now... In fact, the rest of region and even the world might be really pissed with the US as well...

The President's decision took balls and good judgement... So if he wants to take credit, it's his right to do so...

As far as I am concerned Pakistan is admitting guilt here.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/...stan_bin_laden

I quote...

"The statement, the first since Monday's raid, signaled the army's anger at the unilateral operation, but was also aimed at pacifying domestic critics who have accused it of failing to protect the country's sovereignty — potent charges in a country where anti-Americanism runs deep."

Pakistan is our enemy

It doesn't matter what is said in public. What matters is what is done in private. Obama did the right thing.

[bobsticks]

The President's decision took balls and good judgement... So if he wants to take credit, it's his right to do so...

I agree to an extent. Anyone who has spent any time at or near the top of an administration knows that one spends much less time on minutae and much more on theory, guidance and team building. One person that has not been given enough credit is Leon Panetta. He and others should be lauded and accredited for having done the real detail work as well as the nail-biting, take-a-decade-off-your-life pushthrough.

A concept that just now is being processed by the public is that Obama had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to not inform the Pakistanis before the mission. Some might argue that this trouncing of a nation's sovereignty could have been avoided but I suspect that the Bush Administration would've been more successful had it not equated taking a bribe with honesty or loyalty.

[Feanor]

I give Bush credit for one thing, (and pretty much only one thing): he warned Bin Laden that he'd be take "dead or alive".

I don't give a damn whether OBL was armed or not, (very illiberal of me I'll grant). Practically speaking the show trial of a captured OBL would have been big problem from numerous perspectives. And remember there are still parts of the world where revenge is respected and in those places people will take a certain lesson.

OTOH, as I said above, OBL is a special case and the US shouldn't make a practice of assassinating terrorist rather than trying them where that's possible.

[ForeverAutumn]

I don't give a damn whether OBL was armed or not,

I'll say here what I said on another site. OBL doesn't have to be armed when he has people who are willing to die to protect him and do his dirty work. Why dirty his own hands? The thousands of people who he's responsible for killing weren't armed either.

I believe in justice, but I also believe in capital punishment. He's a mass murderer who got what he deserved.

[3LB]

he's a mass murderer who got what he deserved.

this^