And still this happens.....

[Poultrygeist]

Violent crimes are lower among people with mental illness than with the general population. That being said a person with mental illness can not be required to seek treament. It is perfectly legal to be insane and unless a person is declared harmful to self or others they can not be committed for treatment against their will. This is where the problem lies. I suspect the mother knew her son needed inpatient treatment but there is no way to make that happen as a 20 year old is an adult and must give their own consent. Our state hospitals stand empty as committment laws changed and sadly judges make committment decisions rather than clinicians.

[dean_martin]

You can pretty much substitute "rattlesnakes" for "guns" in every one of these posts.

[ForeverAutumn]

Locked or not, it's a truly cathrostrophic mistake on mom's part that he was able to access them at all. One she paid dearly for. ...as did many others.

Absolutely. I was just curious.

[Hyfi]

BTW, you're wrong about that. According to this article in today's USA today the primary weapon used was a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle - a semiautomatic assault rifle. The same weapon used in the D.C. Sniper shootings.






Oh that's a good idea. Then the kids won't need to acquire their own guns to bring to school. They can just steal the teacher's gun.

More guns is not the answer to having too many guns on the streets.

Ok so I can blame the media for delivering mis-information to me. I have not been glued to the tv around the clock traumatizing myself as they are doing to everyone.

Locked or unlocked, there is a code of safety among most gun owners. Unloaded, gun locks, safes and other precautions. I have no children so I don't need to worry as much. When I go away, they are locked in a safe so they may not be stolen and used by an Ahole or sold back to the city of Camden for $100 so the thief can get a no questions asked fix.

More guns is not the answer, proper education and safety is part of the answer. Less violent games and movies is part of the answer. Proper nutrition and paying attention to your own children and not playing the "oh no, not my child" card. Proper time spent as a family unit teaching children right from wrong instead of using Video Games and TV as a babysitter might help. I have way too many friends that just plopped their newborns in front of the TV so they can be occupied and not bother the parent. Don't have children if you don't plan to raise them properly, they can't raise themselves.

That said, I know there is no hard line and it surely does not apply to everyone, but it does for the majority. Not every single parent family has problems but more do than the normal family unit does.

Lets start looking at the REAL problems of society and not blame every mentally whacked out gun crime on guns alone. Like I said earlier, no gun....make a bomb and take out a whole Federal building and Day Care. Have we outlawed Fertilizer yet? Maybe we should so nobody can ever do that again. But we will just bury our heads in the sand and not take care of the real problems. We will just punish the 99.999% of gun owners that do EVERYTHING the proper way.

I do agree on one point, there is no real reason to have Military Assault Rifles or Uzis. There is nothing wrong with having the same capacity handgun as the crazy cops have.

[Hyfi]

BTW, you're wrong about that. According to this article in today's USA today the primary weapon used was a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle - a semiautomatic assault rifle. The same weapon used in the D.C. Sniper shootings.






Oh that's a good idea. Then the kids won't need to acquire their own guns to bring to school. They can just steal the teacher's gun.

More guns is not the answer to having too many guns on the streets.

Ok so I can blame the media for delivering mis-information to me. I have not been glued to the tv around the clock traumatizing myself as they are doing to everyone.

Locked or unlocked, there is a code of safety among most gun owners. Unloaded, gun locks, safes and other precautions. I have no children so I don't need to worry as much. When I go away, they are locked in a safe so they may not be stolen and used by an Ahole or sold back to the city of Camden for $100 so the thief can get a no questions asked fix.

More guns is not the answer, proper education and safety is part of the answer. Less violent games and movies is part of the answer. Proper nutrition and paying attention to your own children and not playing the "oh no, not my child" card. Proper time spent as a family unit teaching children right from wrong instead of using Video Games and TV as a babysitter might help. I have way too many friends that just plopped their newborns in front of the TV so they can be occupied and not bother the parent. Don't have children if you don't plan to raise them properly, they can't raise themselves.

That said, I know there is no hard line and it surely does not apply to everyone, but it does for the majority. Not every single parent family has problems but more do than the normal family unit does.

Lets start looking at the REAL problems of society and not blame every mentally whacked out gun crime on guns alone. Like I said earlier, no gun....make a bomb and take out a whole Federal building and Day Care. Have we outlawed Fertilizer yet? Maybe we should so nobody can ever do that again. But we will just bury our heads in the sand and not take care of the real problems. We will just punnish the 99.999% of gun owners that do EVERYTHING the proper way.

I do agree on one point, there is no real reason to have Military Assault Rifles or Uzis. There is nothing wrong with having the same capacity handgun as the crazy cops have.

[Poultrygeist]

I've worked with kids with Aspergers and violence was never an issue but personality disorders are a different matter. I have seen kids with Aspergers/autism become fixated and obsess over a single topic such as trains or the military. I wonder if the mom's gun hobby wasn't a way for her to connect with her son and his obsession?

She had to know he was prone to violence as this behavior does not come on overnight.

[Hyfi]

She had to know he was prone to violence as this behavior does not come on overnight.

+1
Thats why it is important to spend more time to know who your children are and what they need, including the proper help. Maybe daddy would have noticed had he stuck around.

[dean_martin]

Like I said earlier, no gun....make a bomb and take out a whole Federal building and Day Care. Have we outlawed Fertilizer yet? Maybe we should so nobody can ever do that again. But we will just bury our heads in the sand and not take care of the real problems. We will just punish the 99.999% of gun owners that do EVERYTHING the proper way.

I do agree on one point, there is no real reason to have Military Assault Rifles or Uzis. There is nothing wrong with having the same capacity handgun as the crazy cops have.

I agree with most of what you say, but try parking in front of a federal building since the OK City bombing and see if you don't wind up being questioned by the US Marshalls. You should also find barricades/posts surrounding most federal buildings since the OK City bombing. No, fertilizer was not banned, but measures were taken in the interest of safety and I suspect, but am not sure, that fertilizer purchases are tracked in some manner. (Admittedly, I could be wrong about tracking fertilizer purchases.)

My equating guns with rattlesnakes in an earlier cryptic post comes from seeing/learning of too many self-inflicted gun shot wounds and deaths and other accidental shootings. It's really a different topic but the results can be just as tragic, but with fewer numbers.

I am curious as to where you get your conclusion that 99.999% of gun owners do EVERYTHING the proper way. I agree that the percentage is probably high, but I cannot take it on faith that it's that high. We don't hear about the near misses from accidental discharges, for example. The fact that a former VP shot someone by accident suggests that the percentage is not quite that high.

I received a message from a former teacher/enthusiastic gun owner/self-proclaimed libertarian that a recording exists of an officer at the scene stating that a second gunman was subdued and handcuffed and the third gunman was being pursued through the woods. The message went on to state that two copycat shootings in Alabama were thwarted by armed citizens over the weekend. How do you debate crap like this? You don't. I kindly replied that I hadn't heard there were other shooters and I would look into it. As to the copycat attempts though, I replied that you can't really copy a school massacre during a weekend. Sometimes you just gotta call BS when you see it. Of course, his underlying premise for the copycat story was that armed citizens can stop these types of killing sprees. I don't see it/get it. I disagree.

[Hyfi]

I agree with most of what you say, but try parking in front of a federal building since the OK City bombing and see if you don't wind up being questioned by the US Marshalls. You should also find barricades/posts surrounding most federal buildings since the OK City bombing. No, fertilizer was not banned, but measures were taken in the interest of safety and I suspect, but am not sure, that fertilizer purchases are tracked in some manner. (Admittedly, I could be wrong about tracking fertilizer purchases.)

My equating guns with rattlesnakes in an earlier cryptic post comes from seeing/learning of too many self-inflicted gun shot wounds and deaths and other accidental shootings. It's really a different topic but the results can be just as tragic, but with fewer numbers.

I am curious as to where you get your conclusion that 99.999% of gun owners do EVERYTHING the proper way. I agree that the percentage is probably high, but I cannot take it on faith that it's that high. We don't hear about the near misses from accidental discharges, for example. The fact that a former VP shot someone by accident suggests that the percentage is not quite that high.

I received a message from a former teacher/enthusiastic gun owner/self-proclaimed libertarian that a recording exists of an officer at the scene stating that a second gunman was subdued and handcuffed and the third gunman was being pursued through the woods. The message went on to state that two copycat shootings in Alabama were thwarted by armed citizens over the weekend. How do you debate crap like this? You don't. I kindly replied that I hadn't heard there were other shooters and I would look into it. As to the copycat attempts though, I replied that you can't really copy a school massacre during a weekend. Sometimes you just gotta call BS when you see it. Of course, his underlying premise for the copycat story was that armed citizens can stop these types of killing sprees. I don't see it/get it. I disagree.

OK so parking next to a federal building is more difficult, but you can pull right up to a school or any other place of business. My main point again is that this is not really a gun control issue, it is a people control and parenting issue.

Most of the accidental shootings we hear about are children of gun owners, legal or otherwise, that get hold of the weapon and shoot their brother or sister. But again, if the gun was locked and not loaded it could not happen that easily.

Maybe my percentage is extreme but if you look at how many legal gun owners there are, and how many of these accidental shootings happen, you can get my point.

Accidental hunting accidents are another story. Some of these guys really should not own guns at all. When there are many hunters in the same area and everyone has a hair trigger and shoots at anything that moves, **** happens. I don't hunt and never did.

All the people I personally know who are owners have had some training, education and show the proper respect. I'm sure there are those who are lax. But you can't just go changing all the gun laws and screwing over the people who abide them because some whacko bought their deranged child assault weapons. If he didnt kill her, she should have went to jail for her part in the whole mess.

[dean_martin]

My main point again is that this is not really a gun control issue, it is a people control and parenting issue.

You're probably right to a large extent. When kids are having kids and more and more families appear to be "dysfunctional" and we are all exposed to so much more through various media, it's hard to argue with you. Using percentages, you're probably 90% right. BUT, what's the "fix"? Identifying the problem is only the first step. How do we solve parenting problems? How do we control people? Should "we" (or, our gov't) be doing either? When the solution is almost impossible to arrive at and implement, we have to treat the "symptoms" until we can get a handle on the "disease". Some reasonable restrictions on gun rights should be part of the solution. For example, who needs a 30-round magazine? Who needs an AR-15? I have two shotguns and a .22 rifle. Many years ago, when I used to hunt with my grandfather, I was told that if we removed the "plug" from our shotguns we would get in trouble with the game warden. The "plug" allowed the shotgun to hold 3 shells. Remove the plug and the gun could hold 5 shells. You could only load 3 rounds at a time for deer. How many rounds can you load for humans?

My feelings/thoughts may be a little extreme. I do not think a person needs to or should carry a concealed hand gun. A hand gun, if kept at all, should be kept in one's home to protect one's last place of retreat. "Stand your ground" laws are in contravention of the common law that required one to retreat or stop short of deadly force, if possible, while defending one's self or others. I think we've placed "self-defense" so far above preservation of human life that things are upside down now. What message does this send to impressionable young people, especially those who feel anxious, frustrated and picked on? They can almost justify lashing out and killing anyone who has ever wronged them simply by misinterpreting or twisting the law ever so slightly. Hell, they can develop a plan while playing the latest first-person shooter.

[ForeverAutumn]

All the people I personally know who are owners have had some training, education and show the proper respect. I'm sure there are those who are lax. But you can't just go changing all the gun laws and screwing over the people who abide them because some whacko bought their deranged child assault weapons.

And yet we all take our shoes off at airports all over North America (the world?) because one wacko unsuccessfully tried to blow up an airplane by smuggling explosives in his shoes. I'm not saying what is right and wrong, I'm just saying that priorities are confused.

[Hyfi]

And yet we all take our shoes off at airports all over North America (the world?) because one wacko unsuccessfully tried to blow up an airplane by smuggling explosives in his shoes. I'm not saying what is right and wrong, I'm just saying that priorities are confused.

I agree that there is no easy solution to all of this.

How about instead of needing a License to get Married, you need to get a License to have a child and you need to prove you can properly care for it after you have it?

Unrelated but same problem where instead of fixing the problem, the ones who follow the rules are punished.

I used to work in a shop and we started at 7am. There was a grace period til 7:07 and you would not be docked. Several people including the foreman were always punching in between 5 and 7 after and getting paid from 7, while the rest of us were there before 7 and actually working at 7 o'clock.

So instead of reprimanding the abusers and fixing the problem, the boss moved the time clock 10 minutes forward so now all the people who were always on time, were 10 minutes early and had to wait til the clock said 7 to start working AND the very same abusers just continued to come in later and never get docked.

This is the same insanity now where because there are a handful of very stupid people, there is a cry to screw over all the others who follow the rules.

There is nothing wrong with target shooting and a desire to protect one self and home. I don't need an assault weapon for that but don't dare tell me I should not be allowed to own a handgun as long as I follow the rules and the laws.

My County wants people to have permits to carry. They have a special desk setup at the Sheriffs Office just for permits. The more sane citizens with a gun, the more help the cops have in this crazy world. These are not the same people causing the problems. Mothers who buy their deranged children assault weapons are the problem.

[LeRoy]

Winston, thanks for the Mother Jones link. The shooting at McD's back in 84 and the day trader shootings in Atlanta in 99 really got me sick during their time of when those events happened. I am sick again with the theater shooting and now with the slaughter in Newtown.

A part of me feels kinda guilty due to my apathy over the years on the topic of gun control. After the Aurora,CO shootings I did sign the petition at the Brady Handgun Control Center. Now, I plan to actually write out my idea of what gun and ammo control legislation should look like and mail it in. I doubt that any or little of what I plan to write will actually be considered but at least I will be attempting to engage in the process rather than doing nothing as I have in the past.

Thanks again for the link, very helpful.

[Hyfi]

NRA responds

NRA Responds To Sandy Hook Massacre

And here is an interesting part of the page..

""It wasn't immediately clear what meaningful contributions the NRA plans.

But there may be some clues in the group's responses to prior mass shootings. In early 2011, following the mass shooting in Tucson, Ariz., that nearly killed former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, NRA chief executive Wayne LaPierre said the debate about how to prevent future gun massacres should focus on preventing the mentally ill from acquiring weapons.

“It shouldn’t be a dialogue about guns; it really should be a dialogue about dangerous people,” LaPierre told The New York Times.
""

Ever wonder why you really don't hear much from Gabby? She happens to carry the same model Glock that she was shot with. She does not want that right taken away from herself.


What I have noticed in discussions here and elsewhere, those who quickly jump on the more control bandwagon overlook is that the majority of these kinds of crimes are not committed by the legally registered owner of the gun. Most killers don't jump thru hoops and waiting periods if they want to go off on society, they steal one...buy a stolen one or any other means and get the job done now while they are still snapping. Yes, there are some who go the extra mile.

[ForeverAutumn]

those who quickly jump on the more control bandwagon overlook is that the majority of these kinds of crimes are not committed by the legally registered owner of the gun. Most killers don't jump thru hoops and waiting periods if they want to go off on society, they steal one...buy a stolen one or any other means and get the job done now while they are still snapping.

And exactly where do you think those stolen guns come from?

Hyfi, I don't blame the gun owners. Well, I don't blame the responsible gun owners. But I do think that there are too many guns available. Do you think that the victim of a violent crime or their family cares whether it was the gun owner who fired the bullet? The US has relatively easy access to weapons and a very high crime rate. I don't think that's just a coincidence.

Frankly, if the US doesn't want to make changes to gun laws, that's their business. Just make sure to keep your guns and your gun related violence in your own country. Unfortunately, many of those stolen guns make it over the border and affect others.

[Feanor]

There is something circular in the argument that people must have the right to own & carry guns to protect themselves from others own guns because they have the right to do so, and might misuse them.

It's not my definition of a civil society when civilians have to arm themselves against their fellow citizens -- even in the Wild West sheriffs would often insist that all guns be checked at the town limits.

It seems that 40% of US guns sales legally happen without any background checks. Apparently checks aren't required for online and gun show sales -- yet gun nuts insist they need to do something about crazy people, not guns.

Some gun restrictions that would helpful:

• Require a thorough background check for all gun buyers -- better yet, require licencing of all gun owners
• As above for ammo purchases
• Prohibit semi-auto rifles with detachable magzines or a capacity of over 5 rounds
• Prohibit handguns of over 6 round capacity
• Institute government programs to purchase guns at fair market value
• Combined with the above, offer a temporary amnesty on illegal guns turned in
• And/or confiscate existing prohibited guns and magazines, compensating owners at fair market value; (as was done in Australia).

[ForeverAutumn]

I just read an article that stated some of the profits that gun manufacturers earn. Now it's making more sense. Firearms are a $32 billion industry. Guns are big money.

[E-Stat]

It seems that 40% of US guns sales legally happen without any background checks. Apparently checks aren't required for online and gun show sales -- yet gun nuts insist they need to do something about crazy people, not guns.

Sorry, but that is a ludicrous assertion. Where on earth did you get that figure?

Let's examine your speculation using facts. Last year, there were 16.5 million gun checks according to the FBI. And that number does not include those who purchase guns who remain "pre-checked" (possessing a current carry license having been finger printed and checked). So, if your number were correct, that suggests that 11 million guns were sold casually at gun shows. That works out to over 30,000 each and every day! No, you cannot purchase firearms online unless you have a Federal Firearms License.

[Feanor]

40% was the number quoted on MSNBC's Morning Joe program this morning.

[E-Stat]

40% was the number quoted on MSNBC's Morning Joe program this morning.

Citation-free I'm sure.

Do you believe every outrageous thing that you read or hear?

[markw]

Citation-free I'm sure.

Do you believe every outrageous thing that you read or hear?

When it suits his needs.

[ForeverAutumn]

I was thinking today how nice it is that we can discuss something so emotionally charged with reason and respect. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

[Feanor]

Sorry, but that is a ludicrous assertion. Where on earth did you get that figure?

Let's examine your speculation using facts. Last year, there were 16.5 million gun checks according to the FBI. And that number does not include those who purchase guns who remain "pre-checked" (possessing a current carry license having been finger printed and checked). So, if your number were correct, that suggests that 11 million guns were sold casually at gun shows. That works out to over 30,000 each and every day! No, you cannot purchase firearms online unless you have a Federal Firearms License.

Like I said, I heard it on MSNBC: I don't recall or didn't hear the source citation. So suppose it's less than 40%. Is it not the case that guns are traded without checks at gun shows or private sales? What percentage of sales is acceptable without checks?

[Feanor]

It's OK. I'm back on sabbatical.

[markw]

Let’s fact it, we like our toys.

For whatever reason, some things just trigger the acquisitional lust in all of us. Even though we may never be able to experience them to their full potential, we still want them.

For some people its cars. If I could afford one I’d just love a Maserati Quattroporte even though I’d never see much above 90. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want one just because I wanted one.

But, some bonehead dealer recently had one of his megabuck Italian prancers crash and kill some bewildered motorcyclist who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And, some owners of these fast cars got together, taped over their license plates, and somehow talked some dimwitted state trooper into leading a convoy of them down the Garden State Parkway at speeds well in excess of 100 mph …through traffic.

I don’t see anyone railing to make these illegal and it’s a fact cars kill more people than guns.

As for guns, I personally don’t see the need, not possess toe desire, for these high capacity rifles but to some aficionados, they are merely a fine piece of hardware they want to own, not unlike a Rolex watch, some exotic pets, or even some megabuck stereo equipment.

Granted, just like with some dangerous pets, some controls need to be exercised by their owners but, since they are legal and most people are responsible stewards, in this country, we have the freedom to do many things.

Controls are in place. Granted, a few states could use a bit of tightening up and internet sales should be verboten but, if the controls were enforced and the criminals that used guns were met with serious punishment, perhaps some improvement could be realized.

Also, its now coming out that little Adam loved his shoot ‘em up video games and spent his time in the cellar playing them. Isn’t it strange that his actions in the classroom do seem to emulate the way one plays those games, what with shooting the victims multiple times for the sheer blood-lust involved when one bullet would have easily dispatched these tiny 7 year-olds. Maybe they should ban violent video games too, eh?

It’s also rumored that his mom was considering having him institutionalized but who knows? That would explain her. Who knows what he had against the kids? That’s just what the news is now saying. Tomorrow it could be something different.


In either case, guns are a scapegoat for deeper problems. Look at what a few Saudi Arabians did with just a few box-cutters about eleven years ago.