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  1. #1
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    So I see on the news last night...

    ...Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech and refers to those who partake in that freedom as "goons".

    In what seemed to be an open, public appearance, a group of folks began to chant "four more years". His seemingly loose-canon of a wife had a few words about "four years of hell" and the Flipper came along and said he was "glad George Bush sent some of his goons" to the festivities...seems as though the campaign is like AA...everything is OK just as long as you don't have a different opinion...touchy, touchy...

    jimHJJ(...it's a long way to November...)

  2. #2
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech and refers to those who partake in that freedom as "goons".

    In what seemed to be an open, public appearance, a group of folks began to chant "four more years". His seemingly loose-canon of a wife had a few words about "four years of hell" and the Flipper came along and said he was "glad George Bush sent some of his goons" to the festivities...seems as though the campaign is like AA...everything is OK just as long as you don't have a different opinion...touchy, touchy...

    jimHJJ(...it's a long way to November...)

    Yeah, not to mention the Democratic Party's attempts to suppress Ralph Nader being on the ballot.

    Or his suppression of his book "The New Soldier"

    http://kerry-04.org/war/denials.php

    -Bruce
    (Kerry is so Scary)

    -Bruce

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Free speech? Even free THOUGHT would be a stretch at a Cheney rally.

    At least Kerry and Edwards don't make people sign loyalty oaths before they even let people thru the door. No "goons" there, just the thought police and an automaton choir to preach to...

    http://www.abqjournal.com/elex/204620elex07-30-04.htm

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    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Don't be absurd...

    ...it's obviously being done to limit access to only the choir...you know THAT from the get go...you don't invite the competition to a pep rally do you?

    I don't believe there were any restrictions to the Kerry affair from the outset; held in a public place, etc. Probably could have had them removed otherwise. Was it held to convince the fence-sitters? If so, that's the price you pay...there is a time and place for everything...I'm sure there will be plenty of choir-practice from the Dems or are they above it all?

    jimHJJ(...hardly I think...)

  5. #5
    JSE
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    Yep, typical liberal hipocrisy.

    I love how towards the end of the Dem. Convention Kerry said that Republicans should be civil in the race this year. Not sure of the exact words but WHAT THE $#@%! Your party just spent a week trying to trash Bush and now you want them to be civil? That's feaking funny. These people have no morals, no integrity, no backbone and no hope.

    JSE

  6. #6
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...it's obviously being done to limit access to only the choir...you know THAT from the get go...you don't invite the competition to a pep rally do you?

    I don't believe there were any restrictions to the Kerry affair from the outset; held in a public place, etc. Probably could have had them removed otherwise. Was it held to convince the fence-sitters? If so, that's the price you pay...there is a time and place for everything...I'm sure there will be plenty of choir-practice from the Dems or are they above it all?

    jimHJJ(...hardly I think...)
    Well, you're the one who's championing the First Amendment, but I see that it only applies when the "other guy" says something that you don't like. And show me ANY event that the Kerry campaign has sponsored that requires attendees to sign loyalty pledges in order to attend. It's fine to cherry pick who you issue tickets to, but the way that it was done at that Cheney rally just spanks of a police state mentality to me.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    Yep, typical liberal hipocrisy.

    I love how towards the end of the Dem. Convention Kerry said that Republicans should be civil in the race this year. Not sure of the exact words but WHAT THE $#@%! Your party just spent a week trying to trash Bush and now you want them to be civil? That's feaking funny. These people have no morals, no integrity, no backbone and no hope.

    JSE
    Oh come on, there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around on all sides, so let's not let partisanship blind us to that. Otherwise, it's nothing more than inane he-said-she-said banter.

    I did find that call for civility somewhat transparent, but still a clever ploy, disingenuous as it actually was. If you're talking about morals, integrity, backbone, and hope, you must be watching something other than a political campaign, well at least one involving the two major parties.

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    Is there anyone else on this forum who sees...

    ...that both major parties serve the same masters? Clue: Kerry and Shrub are both Skull and Bones members. A little digging would probably turn up more connections. Most of you don't have a clue who really owns and governs this country. The world is not anything like you believe.

    Laz

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    At least Kerry and Edwards don't make people sign loyalty oaths before they even let people thru the door. No "goons" there, just the thought police and an automaton choir to preach to...

    http://www.abqjournal.com/elex/204620elex07-30-04.htm

    I hope they don't get prosecuted for lying to the government if they don't follow through with that oath? What do you think?
    mtrycrafts

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    I hope they don't get prosecuted for lying to the government if they don't follow through with that oath? What do you think?
    That would of course depend on the fine print! Then again, once they're in the voting booth, who's going to know how they actually vote? Just the principle of demanding a pledge of loyalty to attend a political rally seems repugnant to me. The parallels to totalitarianism are just too convenient. If Kerry, Edwards, or any of the third party candidates did something this boneheaded, that wouldn't sit well with me either.

  11. #11
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    "...spanks of a police state mentality..."...

    ...Firstly, that extrapolation is beyond bogus, it's oversimplifications like that which confuse the sheep...someone posits that it is so, therefore it must be so...

    You are conveniently ignoring the fact thet there seems to be two different scenarios as I have already pointed out...if you can point to evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.

    "...you're the one who's championing the First Amendment..."

    Really? And how did I do that? I simply pointed out Kerry's use of an insulting word and its' implied accusation of some sinister right-wing conspiracy to upset his applecart.

    "...And show me ANY event that the Kerry campaign has sponsored that requires attendees to sign loyalty pledges in order to attend..."

    Can you spell smokescreen? Never said there was now did I? And yet again I ask, was it open to all in order to convince swing voters? If you want to dance to the music...etc.

    Just an oblique side-bar to that police state mentality... the Dems want to restrict firearms, the first step in the road to complete disarmament...some day, and I hope it never comes, all those "gun nuts" out there may save your bacon when the sh!t really hits the fan...remember the Minutemen, the enemy is in our midst and you can't tell the players with or without a scorecard.

    jimHJJ(...I suppose you have some sort of problem with a national ID?...)

  12. #12
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Unfortunately...

    ...there aren't enough who do...(have ANY clue)

    It's as simple as divide and conquer...keep the sheep busy with some petty squabble of one sort or another, and laugh all the way to the bank...give 'em their six-dollar lattes and the cell phones and the road-hog SUVs and all the other trappings of "modern" life and they're happy as pigs in $h!t...

    jimHJJ(...at the risk of repeating myself, is it any wonder I'm a misanthrope?...)

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...Firstly, that extrapolation is beyond bogus, it's oversimplifications like that which confuse the sheep...someone posits that it is so, therefore it must be so...

    You are conveniently ignoring the fact thet there seems to be two different scenarios as I have already pointed out...if you can point to evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears.
    How's it an extrapolation? Kerry simply exercised his free speech rights to describe those demonstrators who were exercising their free speech rights. He's just as free to call them "goons" as they are to say "four more years". However, if a demonstrator's sole intent is to disrupt a sanctioned public gathering, then there ARE limits as to how far they can go -- plenty of legal precedents have established limits on free speech rights (e.g. yelling fire in a crowded movie theater, signage laws, libel, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    "...you're the one who's championing the First Amendment..."

    Really? And how did I do that? I simply pointed out Kerry's use of an insulting word and its' implied accusation of some sinister right-wing conspiracy to upset his applecart.
    No, you were using that example to imply that Kerry has some kind of contempt for free speech. Seems that if you're fine with the right of demonstrators to disrupt a political rally, then you too would take issue with the loyalty oaths that Cheney was demanding. Glad that you're consistent and we're on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    "...And show me ANY event that the Kerry campaign has sponsored that requires attendees to sign loyalty pledges in order to attend..."

    Can you spell smokescreen? Never said there was now did I? And yet again I ask, was it open to all in order to convince swing voters? If you want to dance to the music...etc.
    How's it a smokescreen? Simple fact is that in the Kerry example, everybody got to exercise their free speech rights, while in the Cheney example, free speech was conditional on a pledge of loyalty. There are many methods of ensuring a friendly audience at a political gathering, Cheney happened to make the mistake of invoking a method that's more akin to what a totalitarian regime would use. I'm sure that Kerry and Edwards have got plenty of other events that will have a more preselected audience, and if they're pigheaded enough to demand a loyalty oath to attend those events, that wouldn't sit well with me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Just an oblique side-bar to that police state mentality... the Dems want to restrict firearms, the first step in the road to complete disarmament...some day, and I hope it never comes, all those "gun nuts" out there may save your bacon when the sh!t really hits the fan...remember the Minutemen, the enemy is in our midst and you can't tell the players with or without a scorecard.

    jimHJJ(...I suppose you have some sort of problem with a national ID?...)
    Yeah, and the Bush Administration has sought to further erode the privacy rights of citizens. If you want to get into a back and forth recrimination over which party's more likely to endorse police state policies, I'll be glad to indulge you. But, keep this in mind. BOTH parties want to redefine what's constitutional and what's not, only the specifics and emphases differ. That's simple exercise of power and the partisan politics that drive it.

    I find it amusing that on the NRA headquarters building, they quote the second amendment as "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" and omit the first part which states, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state." I don't usually buy into slippery slope theories, and the notion that gun control laws like the assault weapons ban or criminal background checks for handgun purchases somehow will lead to complete disarmament is about as slippery a slope as there is.

  14. #14
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    On a point-by-point basis....

    Numero uno...your obfuscatory rhetoric notwithstanding...did I ever say Kerry could not exercise HIS freedom of speech? NO! Your continued attempt at clouding the issue either means you don't understand OR you have nowhere to go and rely on a style of Clintonian grammatical usage.

    Again, my objection was, and still is, his use of a demeaning term and the implication of connection with that "vast right-wing conspiracy"...Now, you can either address THAT issue or go prattle on about "yelling fire in a theater"...

    Secondly, another point you choose to ignore, was Kerry's affair closed or open to all in order to convince swing voters?...you pays yer money and you takes yer chances...I still await a response on that one.

    Right, wrong or indifferent, Cheney's method is his method. You don't like it. So, I assume that is THE reason you're not voting for him in November...you know going in what it's about and after all, as you pointed out, he's "...preaching to the choir..." and the church doors are to be closed! BTW, how many invitation-only $1000 rubber-chicken dinners are YOU(or I, for that matter) going to attend?

    Now with regard to the Second Amendment/NRA thing...Registration is the first baby-step to confiscation...in order to round 'em on up, you hafta' know who's got 'em...no slippery slope there. Our government is going about it in a more genteel and roundabout way...not just bustin' in and searching the premises, why do you think THAT is? Could it be because of that darned Second Amendment?

    There are laws in effect right now that restrict handgun sales...all they need is to be enforced. Period.

    With regard to the "militia" aspect, do you think your 21st century mind-set is the same as those in the 17th and 18th century?

    To start, even the definition of "militia is as follows:

    1. A part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in an emergency
    2. The whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

    Now with the Guard and Reserves called to active duty, it seems as though those "gun nuts" as some phrase it, may indeed wind up as the embodiment of that second definition...scary thought, but quite possible.

    Further, in overturning a lower court's ruling, the U.S. Supreme Court, in the case of United States v. Miller [307 U.S. 174(1939)] the Court stated with regard to militia "with obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view." The significance of the militia was in the court's opinion was that it was made up of "...civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion..." and further that this was a force the States could rely on for defense and securing of the laws "...comprised [of]all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense..." who, " when called for service, were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at that time..."

    Matchlocks to flintlocks to rifled barrels and handguns and now to semi-auto and even full auto(although these are prohibited, by law, for civilian ownership)...parity is essential, and indeed recognized, in this decision.

    Even Sanford Levinson of the University of Texas at Austin School of Law, in his article which appeared in the Yale Law Journal "The Embarassing Second Amendment" concedes " I, for one, have been persuaded that the term 'militia' did not have the limited reference that ...many legal analysts assign to it. There is strong evidence that 'militia' refers to all the people, or at least those treated as full citizens of the community". He cites situations that pre-date 9/11 and how certain events might not have occurred in other countries with an armed citizenry.

    His article also cites the "Comentaries on the Constitution" of Joseph Story who emphasized the "importance" of the Second Amendment and described the militia as the "natural defence of a free country" not only "against sudden foreign invasions" and "domestic insurrections" but also against "domestic usurpations of power by rulers". On that last group, Story went on to write "...it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power by rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them".

    Additionally, from Judge Thomas Cooley, an influential 19th century constitutional commentator, in what seems to be part of an interpretational debate wrote "if the right(to keep and bear arms) were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of this guaranty might be defeated altoghether by the action or neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check".

    Also, Theodore Schroeder, an early 20th century freedom of speech theorist stated, "...the obvious import(of the second amendment) is to promotes a state of preparedness for self-defense even against the invasions of government, because only governments have ever disarmed any considerable class of people as a means toward their enslavement"

    Levinson goes on to quote Edward Abbey's revision of the common bumpersticker "If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns".

    jimHJJ(...police state? privacy rights?...)
    Last edited by Resident Loser; 08-06-2004 at 08:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Numero uno...your obfuscatory rhetoric notwithstanding...did I ever say Kerry could not exercise HIS freedom of speech? NO! Your continued attempt at clouding the issue either means you don't understand OR you have nowhere to go and rely on a style of Clintonian grammatical usage.

    Again, my objection was, and still is, his use of a demeaning term and the implication of connection with that "vast right-wing conspiracy"...Now, you can either address THAT issue or go prattle on about "yelling fire in a theater"...
    As I said before, you were stating that Kerry has some kind of contempt for free speech because of his comments. Sorry, but calling people who were obviously trying to disrupt his rally "goons" hardly shows disregard for free speech. If anything, it's a rather vigorous exercise of those rights. It's not like Kerry called in the National Guard and had the Bush supporters shackled and thrown into the basement.

    Use of a demeaning term? Yes, and if you're a Bush supporter drawing attention to yourself at a Kerry rally, that shouldn't be unexpected. Implication to "vast right-wing conspiracy"? That's quite a stretch, and not exactly a logical one at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Secondly, another point you choose to ignore, was Kerry's affair closed or open to all in order to convince swing voters?...you pays yer money and you takes yer chances...I still await a response on that one.
    It was an open event and everybody had their say. I'm not the one who has a problem with that. And as I keep pointing out to you, where in ANY of Kerry's other campaign stops does he preselect the audience by using loyalty pledges? So if Kerry resorted to taking oaths of his audience before letting them thru the door, you wouldn't have a problem with that. If Kerry hates free speech as you say he does, then wouldn't he resort to more draconian tactics to ensure that speech is not free at his gatherings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Right, wrong or indifferent, Cheney's method is his method. You don't like it. So, I assume that is THE reason you're not voting for him in November...you know going in what it's about and after all, as you pointed out, he's "...preaching to the choir..." and the church doors are to be closed! BTW, how many invitation-only $1000 rubber-chicken dinners are YOU(or I, for that matter) going to attend?
    Like I said, you can go back and forth on both sides and find examples of preselecting a friendly crowd with each campaign. I just find the very idea of a loyalty oath as precondition to attend a campaign rally plain idiotic on many fronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Now with regard to the Second Amendment/NRA thing...Registration is the first baby-step to confiscation...in order to round 'em on up, you hafta' know who's got 'em...no slippery slope there. Our government is going about it in a more genteel and roundabout way...not just bustin' in and searching the premises, why do you think THAT is? Could it be because of that darned Second Amendment?
    Oh brother, and I guess that boogey man is coming to steal our souls too. Sorry, but registration to confiscation is a pretty far reaching connection and another slippery slope. I mean, I register my car every year, and no one has come busting down my door or gone about trying to confiscate it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Again, my objection was, and still is, his use of a demeaning term and the implication of connection with that "vast right-wing conspiracy"...
    Sorry, Jim - but anyone who goes to a political rally (for the opposition) with the sole intent of disrupting it is a GOON, pure and simple. I find nothing whatsoever wrong with John Kerry calling them that. They are GOONS and A**HOLES in my view. Plus, if you aren't aware that there is indeed a "vast right-wing conspiracy" to destroy any and all Democrats and manipulate another election victory this November, you simply aren't paying attention - or, you've been so thoroughly brainwashed by Republican propaganda that you've lost the capacity to distinguish truth from lies.

    Secondly, another point you choose to ignore, was Kerry's affair closed or open to all in order to convince swing voters?...you pays yer money and you takes yer chances...I still await a response on that one.
    I'm quite certain that Kerry's campaign rallys are as open to all comers as can be ... which of course does open the door to GOONS. We'll probably see a plethora of same in the coming weeks. If that was the only "dirty trick" that the Republicans chose to employ, I'd be greatly relieved and quite confident that we will be rid of this administration come November. But alas, that's undoubtedly waaaaaaay too much to hope for.

    Right, wrong or indifferent, Cheney's method is his method. You don't like it. So, I assume that is THE reason you're not voting for him in November...
    No - THE reason that I won't be voting for Cheney or Bush in November is because I think that they're absolutely the most corrupt, dishonest, worthless, deceitful, conniving, scurrilous, lying scumbags to ever occupy the White House, that's why. I'ved lived under no less than 13 different administrations in my lifetime ... some of them I liked - some I didn't care much for - some, I even disliked. But I've never hated and despised any of them until this one! Doesn't that tell you something? It sure as hell should.

    For the life of me, I cannot understand how you and I can be so "in tune" with each other when the subject at hand is audio-related or video. Yet when the subject turns to politics, we couldn't be further apart if we tried!
    woodman

    I plan to live forever ..... so far, so good!
    Steven Wright

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Then again, once they're in the voting booth, who's going to know how they actually vote? .
    I am under the impression that you can find out how your neighbor votes even if it is a secret ballot. Or, is that just the party affiliation that is public which would not totally reflect how someone votes on each person.
    mtrycrafts

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trollgirl
    ...that both major parties serve the same masters? Clue: Kerry and Shrub are both Skull and Bones members. A little digging would probably turn up more connections. Most of you don't have a clue who really owns and governs this country. The world is not anything like you believe.

    Laz

    I couldn't agree with you more. It's sad. Pulling the lever in November is akin to choosing whether you wish the puppet to wear a red suit or a blue suit. What a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech and refers to those who partake in that freedom as "goons".

    In what seemed to be an open, public appearance, a group of folks began to chant "four more years". His seemingly loose-canon of a wife had a few words about "four years of hell" and the Flipper came along and said he was "glad George Bush sent some of his goons" to the festivities...seems as though the campaign is like AA...everything is OK just as long as you don't have a different opinion...touchy, touchy...

    jimHJJ(...it's a long way to November...)
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism. Kerry commented on the demonstrators. So what? What's your problem? How does that go against free speech?
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    As I said before, you were stating that Kerry has some kind of contempt for free speech because of his comments.

    Well, lets see:

    Kerry has been trying to keep Nader off the ballot.

    He has threatened to sue anyone who mentiones his book "The New Soldier", where he directly attacks those who fought in 'Nam.

    He now has lawyers threatening libel lawsuits against TV stations who show the Swiftboat commercials questioning his leadership in 'Nam.
    (Funny, I don't see him doing likewise to "moveon.og" or M. Moore)

    I would say his idea of free speech is that you either agree with him, or face any consequence he can throw at you.

    -Bruce
    (Kerry is so Scary)

  21. #21
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Mother Mary and Joseph!!!...

    ...before my opinion sinks ANY lower, I'll give nearly everyone the benefit of doubt...

    "Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech and refers to those who partake in that freedom as "goons"."

    Yep, they're my words and I'm stickin' to 'em...but, just to make sure we are all on the same page...

    Now bein' from NY, Brook-a-leen specifically, we may diverge on the definition of the word "goons". I don't mean goons as in cartoon character...they aren't inhabitants of an early Popeye short...they don't cavort with Gleeps or Eugene the Jeep...not the prototype for Zippy the pinhead...

    Where I come from "goon" means hired muscle, enforcers, generally those who one would think twice about inviting in for scones and clotted cream...

    So when someone like Kerry says that he was "glad George Bush sent some of his goons"...it takes on the connotation of hired hands sent by the "vast right-wing conspiracy"...a bit of paranoia?...playing to the crowd?...touchy-touchy? Howzabout a few members of a free electorate voicing an opinion?...much simpler to shoot the messenger, eh? Kerry's tone and body language indicated to me where HE was a-comin' from. I've seen other politicos undercut the opposition with lines like "the freedom you are exercising is what we are fighting for" etc....Kerry IMHO, chose the alternate tack, one which speaks volumes...

    To paraphrase a line from "Amadeus"...one sees such rhetoric and logic and says " Aahh, Woochifer !!!"...

    Woody, ya' got me by two...presidents that is...sooo...one played golf, another screwed in the pool, they were all somehow crooks and liars and one got his pipes cleaned on the public's dime...I voted for McGovern, but in my later years I have turned down a much more conservative path, warts and all...

    "...they're absolutely the most corrupt, dishonest, worthless, deceitful, conniving, scurrilous, lying scumbags to ever occupy the White House..."

    Now let's pretend we are over in "Cables" and I am Mtry...

    You have proof of this? Strictly anecdotal and your unfounded opinion otherwise.

    ...and besides there was always "Teapot Dome";-)

    Similar in audio and and way different politics? Well, yeah it happens...some time ago I had a similar exchange with MM re: those who pursue an "alternate lifestyle"...I said much the same as you did re: diverse opinions...well, I guess we have to agree to disagree...

    Pat, Pat, Pat!...If you re-read the entire thread in light of this post, perhaps you will understand my POV and why I posted what I did...perhaps not. C'est la vie!

    Way back when, I would frequent taverns and indulge in some corn mash...three topics to avoid...sex, religion, politics...funny though, try as one might, one of them would rear it's ugly head...

    jimHJJ(...some things never change...)

  22. #22
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Now with regard to the Second Amendment/NRA thing...Registration is the first baby-step to confiscation...in order to round 'em on up, you hafta' know who's got 'em...no slippery slope there. Our government is going about it in a more genteel and roundabout way...not just bustin' in and searching the premises, why do you think THAT is? Could it be because of that darned Second Amendment?

    )
    Actually, it is because of the Fourth Amendment that the federalies don't just bust in your home or office and search the premises for guns or anything else. The Fourth Amendment is just as crucial to your right to own (and, in particular, keep) a gun as the Second. But, it's eroding fast under the current administration. The upcoming election represents a trade-off for American citizens.

    Do you want corporate interests running this country w/out any accountability to consumers, to taxpayers or to voters? However, what you will get with this corporate regime is morality via legislation. You'll get the "moral" position on abortion, marriage, stem-cell research, etc. You'll also get to keep your guns, but you'll be so happy with your guns and your country's newfound morality that you will not realize that the remainder of your civil liberties have been stripped away. In other words, you won't remember to use your guns to stop your runaway gov't until you have been jailed for video-taping skyscrapers on your trip to NYC or gov't buildings on your trip to your nation's capital.

    Because I'm biased with respect to the upcoming election, I seek a volunteer to tell us what we will get with a Kerry/Edwards/Democrat administration. I'll only say that our gov't seems to do the least damage to its citizens when our Congress and Presidency are controlled by different parties. If you think about it, grid-lock ain't all that bad.

    P.S. - Resident Loser, I do appreciate your research of the history and meaning of the 2nd Amend. But, consider that our fathers knew when to be vague and when to be crystal clear.

    Tim

  23. #23
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    Context, context, context

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...before my opinion sinks ANY lower, I'll give nearly everyone the benefit of doubt...

    "Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech and refers to those who partake in that freedom as "goons"."

    Yep, they're my words and I'm stickin' to 'em...but, just to make sure we are all on the same page...

    Now bein' from NY, Brook-a-leen specifically, we may diverge on the definition of the word "goons". I don't mean goons as in cartoon character...they aren't inhabitants of an early Popeye short...they don't cavort with Gleeps or Eugene the Jeep...not the prototype for Zippy the pinhead...

    Where I come from "goon" means hired muscle, enforcers, generally those who one would think twice about inviting in for scones and clotted cream...

    So when someone like Kerry says that he was "glad George Bush sent some of his goons"...it takes on the connotation of hired hands sent by the "vast right-wing conspiracy"...a bit of paranoia?...playing to the crowd?...touchy-touchy? Howzabout a few members of a free electorate voicing an opinion?...much simpler to shoot the messenger, eh? Kerry's tone and body language indicated to me where HE was a-comin' from. I've seen other politicos undercut the opposition with lines like "the freedom you are exercising is what we are fighting for" etc....Kerry IMHO, chose the alternate tack, one which speaks volumes...

    To paraphrase a line from "Amadeus"...one sees such rhetoric and logic and says " Aahh, Woochifer !!!"...

    Woody, ya' got me by two...presidents that is...sooo...one played golf, another screwed in the pool, they were all somehow crooks and liars and one got his pipes cleaned on the public's dime...I voted for McGovern, but in my later years I have turned down a much more conservative path, warts and all...

    "...they're absolutely the most corrupt, dishonest, worthless, deceitful, conniving, scurrilous, lying scumbags to ever occupy the White House..."

    Now let's pretend we are over in "Cables" and I am Mtry...

    You have proof of this? Strictly anecdotal and your unfounded opinion otherwise.

    ...and besides there was always "Teapot Dome";-)

    Similar in audio and and way different politics? Well, yeah it happens...some time ago I had a similar exchange with MM re: those who pursue an "alternate lifestyle"...I said much the same as you did re: diverse opinions...well, I guess we have to agree to disagree...

    Pat, Pat, Pat!...If you re-read the entire thread in light of this post, perhaps you will understand my POV and why I posted what I did...perhaps not. C'est la vie!

    Way back when, I would frequent taverns and indulge in some corn mash...three topics to avoid...sex, religion, politics...funny though, try as one might, one of them would rear it's ugly head...

    jimHJJ(...some things never change...)
    You don't that "goons" literally, do you? In the context, I hardly think that's called for.

    Well, now lets see. You have a partisan political gathering and some people from the opposite party try to disrupt it. What are you supposed to do? Throw them out? Or just make them look bad? The latter method is far preferable and hardly infringes on their free speech.
    "Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
    ------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.

  24. #24
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm a bit lost...

    ...and maybe I'm just slow to start this A.M. but, what prezackly do you mean:

    "You don't that "goons" literally, do you? In the context, I hardly think that's called for."

    I'll assume there is a word or two missing...based on that assumption, I'll venture a "take" should be there betwixt "don't" and "that"...

    In the context of what I was allowed to see by the liberal media, what other meaning could there be? Someone upset the feel-good photo-op. The former Mrs. Pickle was angry...Johnnie the "K" was angry...The words "George Bush sent some of his goons" were angry. Try to find the clip...look at his face, listen to the tone, look at the body language...it wasn't "goons" as in gooney, hah, hah, chuckle, chuckle...it wasn't even out-and-out ridicule...as I have already said, there are ways to undercut and there are ways to undercut...What Kerry did was to invoke the Billary dogma of the "vast right-wing conspiracy" by insinuating that the hecklers were not there of ther own volition, but had been dispatched by the committee to re-elect the president and Dubya his own self specifically!

    And once again, my words were: "Kerry thinks little about the exercise of free speech".

    Again, it's early and I am semi-concious, but I don't see where the word "infringe" was ever part of any of MY posts...other people have used the "i" word, and subsequently based their arguments on what I see as a faulty, fallacious inference with reference to me and my statements...I have enough of my own words, I don't need others to put theirs in my mouth...

    jimHJJ(...yech! I don't know where they have been...)

  25. #25
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    Oh Dino, Dino, Dino...

    ...I know about "search and seizure"...

    I meant that it's possibly the fact that one might be keeping and bearing arms that gives the man pause to consider the consequences of an unannounced visit...recall some of those quotes?...

    Actually, I despise the suits...corporate swineAmerica has always been a victim of my terrible, swift mouth...I won't buy "Stanley" because of their off-shore tax evasion loopholes and hate the Col. McWendybelle's of the world on any number of levels and do not give any of them my business...and if something comes of the investigation into Halliburton's alleged futzing with the cash-box in Iraq, I hope they hang 'em out to dry...whoever "they" may be...

    But, I don't see why abortion should be OK as an after-the-fact birth control device...personal responsibility in that matter is just the proverbial tip-of-the-iceberg and reflects on so many facets of life...

    And I'm sorry, marriage is male and female...any legal contract those of the "alternate lifestyle" wish to enter into should be just that, a contract, partnership, whatever neat little euphimism they care to double-speak...there are no guarantees, constitutional or otherwise, for sexual proclivities...and why should corporations be forced to provide health insurance, etc. I mean insurance companies can make it diffcult for cancer survivors and smokers to get policies but, for a percentage of those who willfully engage in "questionable" sexual practices, there are no questions asked? I can't adopt my dog and claim him as a dependent, even though I provide betrer care to him than some do for their children. Yeah, there's the can, here's the opener...have at it!

    Stem-cell? It could open some ethical issues, which are what I believe are the source of reservations about it...don't know enough to have a rational discussion, so I won't.

    In case you hadn't noticed, like it or not we are at war. Since obviously 9/11 and even before...And not just the Iraq deal. Ever since we changed our foreign policy with regard to that rogue Zionist-state in the middle east, by selling them arms in '62, we have been a target.

    Lincoln suspended habeus corpus, there were internment camps in WWII...with our open borders and current state of PC, what are we supposed to do now...We SHOULD be rounding up all the illegals and expired visas and booting them out or locking them up...We are our own worst enemy due to our d@mned complacancy and bureaucracy. Democrats AND Republicans are to blame...as is our fat, dumb and happy populace.

    You can't tell the players without a scorecard! If you are observed acting suspiciously, then you should be scrutinized, detained, arrested...it's a bad world, in bad times and bad things can happen...better to "them" than to that busload, trainload, 'planeload or building full of innocent slobs who are just trying to exist.

    It's a different world, no more "duck and cover"...this time it's for real.

    jimHJJ(...anything else you might like to discuss?...)

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