• 01-07-2004, 06:58 PM
    bturk667
    President Fox of Mexico must be very happy in deed.
    Why? Because our President is taking more of his poor and indegent citizens and letting us pay for them. Why shouldn't Fox, less for him to worry about, as if he really does. I always said that Fox was one of the saddest men on 9/11/01, why, because he was in talks with Bush about this very subject just before that tragic day. This to me is another traggic day!!!

    They cost the tax payers of this country @ $20 BILLION a year. Hooray for George W. Bush, oh I'm sorry, VIVA LA JORGE W. BUSH. Nothing like giving law breakers a reward, free citizenship. And for what, a few votes!?! What a f%cking A$$hole!!!

    Why can't they come into this country legally, my parents did, as did all my relatives living here, as did the parents of countless friends. Just one more reason to loath Jorge W. Bush. What a j@goff!! As if 3 million people in this great country without jobs isn't bad enough. Lets just keep taking in millions more looking for the same thing. Good thinking dumb A$$!!! So all you Bush supporters rejoice!!! He just might have bought himself his relection bid, but at what cost?

    VIVA LA JORGE W. BUSH!!!
  • 01-07-2004, 08:35 PM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    He just might have bought himself his relection bid, but at what cost?

    So, they can vote also?

    I gotta say, I want to like him but he's making it verrrrrrrry difficult.
  • 01-08-2004, 07:50 AM
    JSE
    Well, I must say that I am disappointed with our President on this one. I am a big Bush supporter but I must admit this announcement took me by suprise. It just does not make sense. I'm betting this will never be passed, but who knows?

    One note, this does not give citizenship to the current illegal aliens. This plan would "offer undocumented workers who can show they have a job - or a job offer for those still in their home countries - an initial three-year work permit that would be renewable for an unspecified period."

    I hope this may just be a attempt to get an idea of who is out there in terms of quantity. I hope. This plan does not give any new rights in terms of health care or any other Goverment program from what I have read. I think when you really look at the proposal it really does not do much. I would have to agree that this is really just a politcal vote getting tactic. I, for one, don't blame the president for doing it. Liberals have been pandering to the "lower class" for decades. It's about time the President gave them a taste of their own medicine. I just don't think he should have used illegals as the tool. It's too risky and sends the wrong message.

    I guess one good thing that could come of this is.... If you don't have a job and have not been documented under this new program, your A%$ is going home. But that would be wishfull thinking :rolleyes:

    It is funny to see some democrats praising the President. My God, Sheila Jackson Lee said she supported the President on this issue. She's from here in Houston and usually hates the President and is normally very verbal about it. That's funny. Even though I don't agree with this announcement, I must say it is a brilliant politcal move. He's got the enemy praising him. HA!

    As someone else mentioned in the forum, I love how most liberals are always saying how stupid the President is and how he is can't spell, complete sentences, etc. But, then they claim he is responsible for some of the biggest conspiracies and cover-ups in our history. Can't have it both ways. Democrats, in general, your being played by the best and you are so wrapped up in your hatred for Bush and your conspiracy theories, you don't even see it. Keep it up!

    Oh, the 20 billions that illegal aliens are costing this country is after the offset for taxes paid in, spending, etc. This is a net number. Scary huh? Democrats are so concerned about the deficit, here is a way to knock $20 billion off. So, you don't want a deficit caused by Bush (in your view) but a deficit cause by illegal aliens is OK?

    I'll say it again, BUILD A BIG FREAKIN FENCE!!!!!!

    JSE
  • 01-08-2004, 07:56 AM
    piece-it pete
    It always surprises me.
    I'm supposed to be the heartless conservative! Death to gays, starve poor people, etc. :)

    To stand back & put this in context, this new immigration proposal would be good if a) it's followed by a massive, unstoppable crackdown (can we stand the liberal whining over this? Nooo you can't take their drivers' licenses away!) and b) we truly simplify the law &, more importantly, define exactly what we're aiming at with our immigration policy.

    For years we've been told we MUST allow immigration. Why? What do we hope to accomplish, how is this good for us? I personally think we don't know anymore, it's just become a liberal mantra, like diversity.

    I'm not saying there is no good reason, just that we should spell out what it is. A full debate in congress is an excellent idea.

    And consider this: it's estimated that there's about 8 million illegals in the US at any given time. That's 8 million unknown, unchecked foreign nationals. Any Wahabbis in there? How would we know? Something has to be done.

    Most of the jobs done by these illegals are jobs we simply won't do. Pick apples for minimum wage? So what will cost us more - importing men for labor or paying the additional cost of $10/hr apple pickers? There is also the fact that many of these men send a large percentage of their wages home to their family. Starve their families? That's supposed to be a Republican thing lol! And the goodwill generated (America IS the land of opportunity) is priceless.

    Considering Mexicos' feelings in this matter is important, realistically. We share a long border & economic interest.

    Politics-wise, it's a brilliant move by GWB, not because of the minority vote (the majority of the minorities [haha] vote Democrat), but because unfettered immigration is a Democrat issue, the vast majority of Americans think it's gone too far, and the Dems are either going to defend it (and look VERY bad) or basically do whatever he says (handing the Reps a victory), all in an election year. And he's stupid? No wonder the Dems are so defensive!

    One could always act Floridian, vote for Buchanan (God help us), and take care of immigration once and for all!

    Pete
  • 01-08-2004, 08:51 AM
    JSE
    Pete,

    You make a good point here,

    "Politics-wise, it's a brilliant move by GWB, not because of the minority vote (the majority of the minorities [haha] vote Democrat), but because unfettered immigration is a Democrat issue"

    It's interesting how the conservative party/Bush has been taking away the very issues that democrats have survived on for years. Bush and conservatives have made healthcare their own by passing the prescription drug benefit, they have made the economy their own, and now they are making imigration and illegal immigration their own. Not bad for Dumb ol' Texan. Like you mentioned, the democrats have no choice this time but to agree on some level with the President on this issue. Brilliant if you ask me.

    The democrats are simply being out-classed by the consevatives and the President in nearly every way lately. And their being out-classed by a Dumb-butt! HA!

    JSE
  • 01-08-2004, 09:08 AM
    nobody
    Looks to be political, but I can see one way at least in which it could backfire. Working class folks are not going to like this one little bit. You may say this is better than paying domestic folks $10 an hour to pick apples, but there is a pretty big class of Americans who aren't so sure about that.

    Of course, exploiting that demographioc is problematic for democrats, considering they rely on minotiry support, with a very different outlook on this issue. In the end, the democrats will likely be too timid to even attempt to exploit this and win back the working class vote they have frittereed away over the years. Maybe Dean would have the nerve to play this game, but he'd be risking the wrath of much of the democratic base.

    Yup, very good political move in the end. Puts the dmocrats on the defensive in an area they usually like to see as wrapped up. I'm not a Bush supporter, mostly because of all the Iraq bull****, but the democrats are going to need a miracle to pull one out this time around.
  • 01-08-2004, 02:47 PM
    bturk667
    Your right...
    It grants amnesty!
  • 01-08-2004, 03:16 PM
    bturk667
    Hey Pete, I was waiting for you.
    Where should I start?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by piece-it pete
    I'm supposed to be the heartless conservative! Death to gays, starve poor people, etc. :)

    To stand back & put this in context, this new immigration proposal would be good if a) it's followed by a massive, unstoppable crackdown (can we stand the liberal whining over this? Nooo you can't take their drivers' licenses away!) and b) we truly simplify the law &, more importantly, define exactly what we're aiming at with our immigration policy.

    You had to say IF, didn't you? Do you really think Jorge is about to crack down on the boarder? If he didn't do it after 9/11, why would he now? Illegals aliens, no matter where there from, should never be given a legal U.S. document, NEVER! Hey, with the amount of illegal aliens coming in every year by the millions, I'd say our laws are simple enough. We need to make it harder for Mexicans, like we do for all other imagrants from abroad.

    For years we've been told we MUST allow immigration. Why? What do we hope to accomplish, how is this good for us? I personally think we don't know anymore, it's just become a liberal mantra, like diversity.

    Sorry, a liberal mantra? Last time I checked, Jorge was not a liberal, either was Reagan. He did a similar thing back in 1986! Votes is votes, liberal or conservative! VIVA LA JORGE!!!

    I'm not saying there is no good reason, just that we should spell out what it is. A full debate in congress is an excellent idea.

    And consider this: it's estimated that there's about 8 million illegals in the US at any given time. That's 8 million unknown, unchecked foreign nationals. Any Wahabbis in there? How would we know? Something has to be done.

    Tightening our boarders to the south would be a great first step!

    Most of the jobs done by these illegals are jobs we simply won't do. Pick apples for minimum wage? So what will cost us more - importing men for labor or paying the additional cost of $10/hr apple pickers? There is also the fact that many of these men send a large percentage of their wages home to their family. Starve their families? That's supposed to be a Republican thing lol! And the goodwill generated (America IS the land of opportunity) is priceless.

    I'm sick of hearing that bull$h!t, that they do jobs we won't do. There willing to do the jobs for less money and little to no health care. This is a great savings to many businesses and companies. That is why they get the jobs as much as anything! It's all about the bottom line, and cheap Mexican labor gives it to many companies, so F@ck our citizens!As a guy who has struggled to find work for the last two years, I'll pick apples, but I demand health care!


    Considering Mexicos' feelings in this matter is important, realistically. We share a long border & economic interest.


    Now your making me mad! You think El Presidente Fox gives a sh!t about how many of his citizens come to work here? How many of his poor or sick, F@ck no. It's less for him to worry about. Why does he have to find jobs and health care ofor his citizens, when Jorge will do it with OUR tax dollars, to the tune of $20 BILLION a year. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!


    Politics-wise, it's a brilliant move by GWB, not because of the minority vote (the majority of the minorities [haha] vote Democrat), but because unfettered immigration is a Democrat issue, the vast majority of Americans think it's gone too far, and the Dems are either going to defend it (and look VERY bad) or basically do whatever he says (handing the Reps a victory), all in an election year. And he's stupid? No wonder the Dems are so defensive!

    Yeah, Jorge is really looking out for HIS citizens, very brilliant indeed, what an A$$H@LE!!! Again, last time a checked Jorge was a Republican. He seems to be allowingm the unfettered imigration here!


    One could always act Floridian, vote for Buchanan (God help us), and take care of immigration once and for all!

    Now lets not get stupid Pete!
    Pete

  • 01-08-2004, 04:29 PM
    JSE
    Bturk,

    You're starting to sound like a conservative!

    "I'm sick of hearing that bull$h!t, that they do jobs we won't do. There willing to do the jobs for less money and little to no health care. This is a great savings to many businesses and companies. That is why they get the jobs as much as anything! It's all about the bottom line, and cheap Mexican labor gives it to many companies, so F@ck our citizens!As a guy who has struggled to find work for the last two years, I'll pick apples, but I demand health care!"

    The fact is, they do. Listen to yourself. "As a guy who has struggled to find work for the last two years, I'll pick apples, but I demand health care!" Do you want a job or not? Ok, let's give you healthcare for picking those apples. Now, I go to the store and apples are $1 a piece. No matter how you look at it, increased pay and benefits means higher priced goods.

    "Yeah, Jorge is really looking out for HIS citizens, very brilliant indeed, what an A$$H@LE!!! Again, last time a checked Jorge was a Republican. He seems to be allowingm the unfettered imigration here!"

    Bturk, I think you are over reacting. He is not allowing unfettered imigration. Read the proposal. If someone sneaks accross the border, they will still be considered illegal. When you really think about it, this plan really does not change much of anything. It's political. As I mentioned before, I hope this lead to more strict enforcement of current imigration laws. This could turn out to be a good thing. You are right though, we need to tighten up our borders and end illegal imigration. It's easy to stop. Really. I wish Bush would do more to stop it. I really do. But, who ever does it, will pay a severe political price. Maybe Bush will make some hard decisions and try and end it in his second term? :) Hell, I would vote for anybody and I mean anybody if they guaranteed they would truly protect our borders. I think illegal imigration is the biggest and possibly the most desctructive issue facing us. I don't care who comes here or from where as long as they do it legally.

    You say this issue makes you mad? What makes me mad are people who use the saying "Our country was build on imigration and therefore we should let everyone in. It's what makes America, America." Paaaleaaaaase! Yes, we were "built" on imigration. But times have changed and illegal imigration is threatening to destroy us now. The valve needs to be closed and only opened for legal imigrants. Harsh, but true!

    The fact is, illegal imigrants are here. Can't change that. We are going to have to deal with them in some manner sooner or later. How, I'm not sure. Yes, they are draining our system but how do we fix that? Make them more productive? Identify them and get them valid SS# so they can work legally? I don't know. I do know one thing, $20 billion would go along way toward securing our borders.


    JSE
  • 01-08-2004, 04:45 PM
    Chris
    There's some good analysis on his proposal here:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3909725/

    I also believe that his proposal doesn't do much. He hasn't given any specifics yet, and I'm not sure it will solve any more problems than it will create. I'd give him credit that he's actually addressing the issue, except for the fact that election time is coming up, and this is most likely an effort to gather a few more votes. In any case, I'd like to see some more details before I say I'm for it or against it.

    I think it's a little unrealistic to think "guest workers" will simply go home after their stint is up. So, that in itself may keep them working illegally, since they'd probably rather stay off the radar for fear of being forced back home. These people aren't being offered blanket amnesty, which some of you seemed to be outraged about. They're just being granted work visa extensions from what I gathered.

    This is one subject I find kind of ironic - Bush is all about big business, which benefit from cheap labor, which come from immigrant workers who will work for less money. So when Bush tries to fix it so that companies can continue to benefit from these low-wage workers, those who support Bush, who supports big business, don't like it. Funny how this issue is a catch 22 for some conservatives. Though some are angered by this, it's still a good move on his part politically - as others have mentioned.
  • 01-08-2004, 08:21 PM
    JSE
    Chris,

    "I think it's a little unrealistic to think "guest workers" will simply go home after their stint is up. "

    You're right about that. More proof that this is just politcal posturing. Nothing more. Hell, it still has to pass in the House and Senate. Fat chance of that happening.

    "Funny how this issue is a catch 22 for some conservatives"

    It's actually a catch 22 for both parties. Democrats in general hate Bush. It must be "eating their shorts" to have to agree with him on this one. Like I mention before, Not bad for a Dumb Texan huh?

    Later,

    JSE
  • 01-09-2004, 06:27 AM
    bturk667
    Not a Conservative, an Independent!
    I use common sense and my love for this country to come up with some of my conclusions. I never, and I mean ever, side along some kind of invisible party line. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.

    All I want is for government to do what is right. I have no problem with any body coming here legally, looking for a better life for themselves and their family. My own parents did so. They arrived here on 11/23/63, now we all no what happened on the previous day. I do however have a problem with them when they do so illegally, and then get rewarded for it. And why? For votes, that just is not right, any way you slice it!
  • 01-09-2004, 07:14 AM
    JSE
    Hey Bturk,

    "I do however have a problem with them when they do so illegally, and then get rewarded for it. And why? For votes, that just is not right, any way you slice it!"

    I agree with you on this and this may go against my conservative nature but, the fact is they are here. There is no way we can round them up and send illegal aliens back. I would bet that most illegal imigrants have families of which some or all of their children were born here, thus these family members are US citizens. I have no figures to support this but it seems to be the case here in south Texas and I bet it's the same in most border states. We can't send the parents and keep the kids so what do we do? I don't really know. I do know that we are going to have to deal with them at some point so they are not such a drain on our system. Again, I don't like the thought of rewarding them but at some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say, if your here fine, but no one else gets in illegally. I don't know if any other way could work?

    As far as being an Independent, well that's great. I admire people who have open minds and try and side with what makes sense for our country. I long considered myself an independent but in the last 5 or so years I have found that I am becoming more and more conservative. I do however have no problem disagreeing with conservative agendas or ideas if they make no sense.

    JSE
  • 01-12-2004, 08:39 AM
    Chris
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JSE
    Hey Bturk,

    "I do however have a problem with them when they do so illegally, and then get rewarded for it. And why? For votes, that just is not right, any way you slice it!"

    I agree with you on this and this may go against my conservative nature but, the fact is they are here. There is no way we can round them up and send illegal aliens back. I would bet that most illegal imigrants have families of which some or all of their children were born here, thus these family members are US citizens. I have no figures to support this but it seems to be the case here in south Texas and I bet it's the same in most border states. We can't send the parents and keep the kids so what do we do? I don't really know.
    JSE

    Thank you JSE - many are not thinking of these "illegals" as being people. They're thinking of them as statistics who need to be rounded up like cattle and taken back. Take the parents away and leave the kids as JSE said, and you'll have other social issues creep up on you.

    I'd bet that most of the people who want to see illegals rounded up have no family outside the US, which would help explain their cold view of the situation. If it doesn't affect you, your family, or friends, it's always easier to care less about the people involved, right? Yet, when it touches people you know, you tend to have a little more compassion for the lives involved.
  • 01-12-2004, 10:11 AM
    bturk667
    I think we could round them up and send many back.
    We just aren't about to do that. The imagrantion lawyers would have a field dayif we tried to, not to mention the liberals in the government. The problem for the future is when do we finally start stopping them from crossing the boarder ILLEGALLY? We have to do this sooner or later. So, I for one say let us start today, not tomorrow! Do what ever it takes, including placing the national guard all along the boarder!

    All I am saying is stop the ILLEAGAL imagration into this country! Again, I have no problewm with legal imagrants, just with illegal ones!
  • 01-12-2004, 10:43 AM
    Chris
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    We just aren't about to do that. The imagrantion lawyers would have a field dayif we tried to, not to mention the liberals in the government. !

    Not to mention it isn't the right thing to do.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    The problem for the future is when do we finally start stopping them from crossing the boarder ILLEGALLY? We have to do this sooner or later. So, I for one say let us start today, not tomorrow! Do what ever it takes, including placing the national guard all along the boarder!

    I hear what you're saying. I think border patrol needs to be addressed too. The tough part is, it's just another social program fighting for funding along with tons of other programs - like the war on drugs, or the homeless problem, or the education system, or the medicare system. To divert more resources to the border issue, means you gotta take away from other programs that are in worse shape and have supporters just as avid as you. Do you think everyone agrees it's important enough to put the national guard at the border? Would people be willing to pay an extra tax for it? I don't know... I sort of doubt it.
  • 01-12-2004, 12:00 PM
    JSE
    I think we all agree the Borders need to be tightened up and closed off.

    "The tough part is, it's just another social program fighting for funding along with tons of other programs - like the war on drugs, or the homeless problem, or the education system, or the medicare system. To divert more resources to the border issue, means you gotta take away from other programs that are in worse shape and have supporters just as avid as you. "

    Chris,

    One thing to remember is that closing off the border will definitely help the War on Drugs. You're right, it would cost a bunch but think how much it costs to support each illegal alien that comes across the border and then stays here illegally. I really believe the finacial benefit would outway the cost.

    Bturk,

    I'm right there with ya on using what ever it takes to get it done. National Guard? Sure! One thing is for sure, it would not really be a hard task. It's just got to be done, period. Someone's got to have the Balls to do it. Bush? I don't know, but in 5 to 10 years it going to be a HUGE problem that cannot be ignored. It's huge now, but it will only get worse. It's simply a hot potatoe that nobody wants to touch right now. Maybe after the election? I mean it when I say that I will vote for anyone and I mean anyone that will gurantee to close our borders. I think it's probably the biggest issue facing us.

    JSE