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  1. #1
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Polygamy. Acceptable? Immoral? State your views here.

    I occasionally watch the show 'Sister Wives'. I find the whole Polygamy lifestyle fascinating. It's not something that I could personally participate in. But if all parties involved are willing participants and nobody is underage or being forced into anything then it's their business, not mine.

    I find the family in 'Sister Wives' to be very emotionally healthy. These seem like women that I could be friends with and hang out with. The kids seem pretty grounded. Of course there is the other side of the coin...the polygamist cults such as the FLDS where women and children are abused and often held against their will. These are the extreme polygamists who are often in the press while, I suspect, more normal families like the ones in Sister Wives try to survive in anonymity. I don't know numbers of which is more prevalent.

    There's an interesting article here about how the Sister Wives family is fighting for their rights to not be prosecuted in Utah for their lifestyle. They are not asking the State to recognize their arrangement as legal, they just want to be allowed to keep whatever goes on behind closed doors, behind closed doors.

    We've had some interesting discussions lately about religion and different lifestyles. So what's your take on this? I'm curious.

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    It's bad

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    I occasionally watch the show 'Sister Wives'. I find the whole Polygamy lifestyle fascinating. It's not something that I could personally participate in. But if all parties involved are willing participants and nobody is underage or being forced into anything then it's their business, not mine.

    I find the family in 'Sister Wives' to be very emotionally healthy. ....

    There's an interesting article here about how the Sister Wives family is fighting for their rights to not be prosecuted in Utah for their lifestyle. They are not asking the State to recognize their arrangement as legal, they just want to be allowed to keep whatever goes on behind closed doors, behind closed doors.

    We've had some interesting discussions lately about religion and different lifestyles. So what's your take on this? I'm curious.
    Polygamy where it exists -- and that's lots of place today, notably Africa -- is the generally the purview of wealthy men. I don't think it's any different where it happens unofficially in the US.

    I don't have a religious opinion nor do I consider that relevant. Most Muslims will tell you four wives are permitted but a few think more is OK provided they are all treated equally. Christianity has generally gone with one wife, (or none for R.Catholic priests). So are Mormons Christian? Humm.

    It's often said that polygamy is abusive of women. I tend to agree but I insist that is is also abusive of men: another case of the rich exploiting the poor. In this case it's rich men hoarding the women. It seems there are polygamous communities in the US where young men are regular kicked out, ostensibly for religious transgressions but in fact because they are competition for the women.

  3. #3
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Acceptable but stupid...
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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I am married, and very happy with the wife I have. As such, I do not give a fig newton what others do sexually, providing that no one is abused in any way. If I were stil single and having trouble finding a mate, I'd be pretty p'd off if some guys were grabbing up all the extras, 5+ at a time.
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    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Polygamy, can never really be discussed unless you bring religion into it. It is base on religious faith/customs and that is where you will find the hard points of the argument. In old testament times ( which covers Christan's/Jews/Muslims faiths) you can read that man was to have only one main wife, but as man see things for himself if that woman was barren rules/bylaws/religious exceptions made it that he could take another to keep the family name going. Which brought additional rules/bylaws/exceptions if the first wife birth no sons. Most of these women were slaves/handmaids of the wife, so it was not like bringing a stranger into the home.

    The most important thing was to have sons to help with fields/flocks and so forth and continue on the family name at all cost. Arranged marriages, gave value to the female (still practice in many hindo and other Indian countries), as the family of the female paid a dairy to the other family to have their son marry her. I think it was the story of Jacob was the first form of actual polygamy, were he worked for 7 years to marry one of his bosses (really a uncle) daughter, but the Uncle tricked him by saying he had to marry the oldest daughter first (not the one he wanted). Jacob worked another 7 years for the right to marry the one he wanted, so now he had 2 wives (sisters).

    Now with that brief history lesson, some faiths have used that story as the right for a man to have multiple wives. Since there was no case of the first wife not being able to bare children before he married the other (if you read the story the first wife did turn out to be barren and offer up her hand maid in her place). As the church grew in power, they condemned the notion of multiple wives, but still allowed men to father children by the wifes hand maid upon consent of the wife.

    This mentality remains to this day, in our own history during slavery this was the mindset of several slave owners, but not with the consent of the wife or reasons of her being barren, just sexual gratification. The Mormons kept it more to the arrange marriage view and to keep their faith pure from outsiders. But from pressure from the Feds cause Joseph Smith to have a vision and rule that polygamy will no longer be apart of the Mormon faith. With that decision the Mormon church had a split on fundamental beliefs
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    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    My first question I ask myself is will anyone be harmed by this lifestyle and I cannot see harm. Next has there ever been a precedent and throughout history there have been times of plural marriages.

    On the other hand why should someone be allowed to marry multiple times when I am not allowed to marry once in my state.

    I often wonder if we need some great minds to formulate a moral/ethical guide. I find many moral decisions based on the bible that is not fair to all. Any law designed force another's idea of morality should never become law. Of course their would be some duplication such as still wrong to kill.

    A friend of mine has a wife that he would gladly give to a polygamist group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoveryone View Post
    Polygamy, can never really be discussed unless you bring religion into it. It is base on religious faith/customs and that is where you will find the hard points of the argument. In old testament times ( which covers Christan's/Jews/Muslims faiths) you can read that man was to have only one main wife, but as man see things for himself if that woman was barren rules/bylaws/religious exceptions made it that he could take another to keep the family name going. Which brought additional rules/bylaws/exceptions if the first wife birth no sons. Most of these women were slaves/handmaids of the wife, so it was not like bringing a stranger into the home.

    The most important thing was to have sons to help with fields/flocks and so forth and continue on the family name at all cost. Arranged marriages, gave value to the female (still practice in many hindo and other Indian countries), as the family of the female paid a dairy to the other family to have their son marry her. I think it was the story of Jacob was the first form of actual polygamy, were he worked for 7 years to marry one of his bosses (really a uncle) daughter, but the Uncle tricked him by saying he had to marry the oldest daughter first (not the one he wanted). Jacob worked another 7 years for the right to marry the one he wanted, so now he had 2 wives (sisters).

    Now with that brief history lesson, some faiths have used that story as the right for a man to have multiple wives. Since there was no case of the first wife not being able to bare children before he married the other (if you read the story the first wife did turn out to be barren and offer up her hand maid in her place). As the church grew in power, they condemned the notion of multiple wives, but still allowed men to father children by the wifes hand maid upon consent of the wife.

    This mentality remains to this day, in our own history during slavery this was the mindset of several slave owners, but not with the consent of the wife or reasons of her being barren, just sexual gratification. The Mormons kept it more to the arrange marriage view and to keep their faith pure from outsiders. But from pressure from the Feds cause Joseph Smith to have a vision and rule that polygamy will no longer be apart of the Mormon faith. With that decision the Mormon church had a split on fundamental beliefs
    I knew this would turn into another Religion thread somehow.
    Good background and info but as you state, people today use the Religious reasons to justify their own selfish pleasures.

    I don't really care what people do as long as nobody is harmed, physically or emotionally.

    I'm not real sure how the insurance policy works:
    Family
    Husband and Wife
    Husband and Wife and Wife and Wife.....

    I do think that since the basis of marriage is that 2 become 1, people who want multiple partners should not bother getting married and just enjoy the group sex or leftovers as a few spouses end up with. (sloppy 4ths)

    Now on the lighter side...

    What is the worst part of being a Polygamist?
















    Multiple Mother in Laws

  8. #8
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I think it is acceptable just like I think gay marriage is acceptable. As long as the children of these marriages are emotionally and physically healthy, I cannot see a problem with letting consenting adults do what they desire.
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  9. #9
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I think it is acceptable just like I think gay marriage is acceptable. As long as the children of these marriages are emotionally and physically healthy, I cannot see a problem with letting consenting adults do what they desire.
    But no animals. Ducks should be protected from this kind of abuse.
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  10. #10
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    On the other hand why should someone be allowed to marry multiple times when I am not allowed to marry once in my state.
    To be clear. Polygamists cannot legally marry multiple wives. The wives may be recognized as such by the religion, but not by the state. My understanding is that only the first wife is a legal union. Subsequent wives are ceremonial only and do not share the same 'legal' rights.

    The ironic thing here John, I think, is that they are actually fighting to have the same rights that you do.

    The case has the potential to force another reexamination of laws governing individuals' sexual choices and lifestyles. It comes after the US Surpeme Court in 2003 struck down a Texas antisodomy law as an unconstitutional intrusion into private conduct, and at a time when views about marriage are in flux.

    Legal analysts say it is important for the public to understand what this latest lawsuit is not about.

    “This is not about the Browns' attempt to get Utah to recognize polygamous marriage, but rather to ask the federal courts to tell them they cannot punish intimate conduct,” says Melissa Murray, assistant professor of law at the UC Berkeley School of Law. The Browns will argue that the 2003 Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas should extend to the practice of having multiple wives, she says.

    Adds Herma Hill Kay, a US Berkeley law professor: “They are not seeking to have their relationship validated as a marriage. They’re just trying to avoid criminal prosecution.”
    Understandably, the State of Utah is very sensitive to Polygamy. There is a large Mormon Fundamentalist population there and there have been many reports of physical and mental abuse among this sect, with families broken up and children removed from homes for their safety.

    But it doesn't seem to me that this family falls into that same category...or do they?

  11. #11
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    But no animals. Ducks should be protected from this kind of abuse.
    LOLOLOL. As long as they keep their butts in the water...they are safe
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  12. #12
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't see how anyone could put up with more than one spouse. That would be a lot of stress. Anyone having more than one spouse should be aloud to smoke pot with no questions asked. They're gonna need it.
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  13. #13
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    I knew this would turn into another Religion thread somehow.
    I don't think that you can completely keep religion out of this because the reason that people are polygamists has to do with their religious beliefs. What I think will keep this discussion civil (at least I hope so) is twofold. One,nobody here, that I am aware of, subscribes to this belief so it shouldn't get personal and, two, I see this more as a discussion about society and personal freedoms than I do a religious issue.

    Is polygamy immoral and should it be punished if all of the people in the sexual relationship are consenting adults with the freedom to leave should they choose to do so and nobody (including the children) is getting hurt?

    Does the State of Utah have the right to hold this family criminally accountable for their actions? If the husband lived with only one wife but had affairs with other women, no one would care. Even if those affairs resulted in children, no one would care. (...unless the man in question was a politician or a celebrity...then everyone would care. ) So, is it better or worse that he openly lives with four women instead of just having affairs?

    If this family chose to live as polygamists but it was not for religious reasons, would that make any difference?

    Discuss....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    I don't think that you can completely keep religion out of this because the reason that people are polygamists has to do with their religious beliefs. What I think will keep this discussion civil (at least I hope so) is twofold. One,nobody here, that I am aware of, subscribes to this belief so it shouldn't get personal and, two, I see this more as a discussion about society and personal freedoms than I do a religious issue.

    Is polygamy immoral and should it be punished if all of the people in the sexual relationship are consenting adults with the freedom to leave should they choose to do so and nobody (including the children) is getting hurt?

    Does the State of Utah have the right to hold this family criminally accountable for their actions? If the husband lived with only one wife but had affairs with other women, no one would care. Even if those affairs resulted in children, no one would care. (...unless the man in question was a politician or a celebrity...then everyone would care. ) So, is it better or worse that he openly lives with four women instead of just having affairs?

    If this family chose to live as polygamists but it was not for religious reasons, would that make any difference?

    Discuss....
    Nobody should be allowed to use religious beliefs to justify anything they do. I'm sure those same people will be picking and choosing the beliefs that work for them and not the rest.

    I think you should be able to do anything you want as long as you handle the fallout and the cost of it all.

    I should not have to pay more taxes or insurance premiums to support this just like I hate that I have to pay more for my insurance to offset single or divorced parents premiums. So I definitely do not want to start paying for all the children and divorced wives of polygamists.

  15. #15
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    I think what Autumn is getting at is, should the other wives have equal status as the first wife. And this is were man screwed it all up, by taking other women into the house hold with out proper justification. In biblical times a woman knew her main role was to bare children for her husband (sons if possible) and it was her call to offer up a hand maiden if she was unable to conceive a child, the husband had no say in the matter. Now the Mormons put a twist on it and said its a man right to father as many children as he can and the woman have no say in the matter.

    This is where the abuse card gets played, if the decision of bringing another woman into the house is not shared by both, then you cannot help but have situations arise with envy, hate and distrust. And with most women that fear/feelings are placed upon her children and their status within the family. Every family, Human or animal has a hierarchy and everyone learns/knows their place like or not, and it is only natural to want to have your position secured within that family. A woman without children would still be consider the head of the house, but she would know that the love of the father would rest upon the woman the bore him sons. But if both women gave birth to children (sons) then much uprising would occur within the home. For each son would be jocking for position of the fathers favor (Jacob & Esau, and they were full blood brothers).

    Our customs today still reflect those traditions in how parents divide up the family wealth in their time of death.
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  16. #16
    RGA
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    I LOVE GAY MEN.


    No I am not gay but the eliminate my competition for women so the more gay men the better if you ask me.

    Now for poly relationships - whatever floats your boat. I know some people who live this lifestyle and I am friendly with a couple who are both dominants - she likes to beat guys/girls and he likes spanking women - whatever - they've been married for over 20 years and it's probably the most stable relationship I know of. They run a bed and breakfast for kinky people with different rooms for whatever the desire. Frankly it's a DisneyLand for adults. If you like that sort of thing. Although they have moved now and had to close up.

    Still what does anyone really care. We're supposed to be "adults" for a reason and in supposedly free countries we should all be allowed to do things that do not hurt other people (unless they want it

    If you want 8 partners go for it. People with money already have this access - see Hugh Hefner

  17. #17
    Oldest join date recoveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post

    Does the State of Utah have the right to hold this family criminally accountable for their actions? If the husband lived with only one wife but had affairs with other women, no one would care. Even if those affairs resulted in children, no one would care. (...unless the man in question was a politician or a celebrity...then everyone would care. ) So, is it better or worse that he openly lives with four women instead of just having affairs?

    Discuss....
    First off lets go back and look at what Utah really is:

    The Utah territory as it once was called covered what we now call State of Utah, Part of Colorado, Idaho, Nevada and Arizona. And for the most part the State of Utah is the Mormon Church, not as much today as in the past, but nothing gets elected/laws or bills passed without some sort of approval from the church. As I stated above, Utah only became a state only after agreeing to denounce polygamy.

    The United States was in no hurry to admit them into the union, until gold and silver was found in the Mountains of Nevada and California, Then old BYU himself (Governor of the Territory) cut a deal. So don't think the courts of Utah is turning over rocks and beating bushes to find these people, they normally let them go about their business, until some big story pops up and rocks the boat.
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    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    My iPhone did something strange so I will try my post again. FA I do think a polygamist could legaly marry the first wife. In Ohio I can not marry even one man. As a gay man I have no rights. I can be denied housing. I have no protection from wrongful termination for being gay. Which explains why I walk and talk like John Wayne when looking for a new apartment or applying for a job. No protection from harassment. I remember the years of fear when I thought I might be discovered.
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  19. #19
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    My iPhone did something strange so I will try my post again. FA I do think a polygamist could legaly marry the first wife. In Ohio I can not marry even one man. As a gay man I have no rights. I can be denied housing. I have no protection from wrongful termination for being gay. Which explains why I walk and talk like John Wayne when looking for a new apartment or applying for a job. No protection from harassment. I remember the years of fear when I thought I might be discovered.
    John, you are absolutely right and I apologize. Thanks for correcting me.

  20. #20
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoveryone View Post
    I think what Autumn is getting at is, should the other wives have equal status as the first wife.
    I'm not trying to get at anything really. I just thought that it would be an interesting topic for discussion and I was interested in what you all thought about it.

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    I'm not trying to get at anything really. I just thought that it would be an interesting topic for discussion and I was interested in what you all thought about it.
    I think that this thread should have pictures.
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  22. #22
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    I think that this thread should have pictures.
    Have you been visiting that kinky bed and breakfast place RGA has been talking about?
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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Have you been visiting that kinky bed and breakfast place RGA has been talking about?
    Not yet.
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    Interesting thread..

    Well, my views on polygamy are kinda helter skelter. I think we should look at it from a level even DEEPER than religion... genetics. To me the fundamental question has always been IS MAN A MONOGAMOUS ANIMAL? I personally don't think so. I believe certain religions and cultures have claimed that this is man's natural state but I'm not convinced. There were always "exceptions" to the one wife rule for the rich and powerfull.

    Solomon in the old testament didn't have all them wives and concubines fer nothin. However there are so many factors as to why a culture or tribe is polygamous or not. In Africa you can find both schools of thought, even among ancient tribal cultures (pre Judeo/Christian/Muslim influence). The idea of monogamy got a big shot in the arm when the idea of "property" and inheritence became formost in some cultures. The ability to prove one's progeny became paramount.

    As for the Mormons, Brigham Young was a devout believer in polygamy until the threat of invasion by Federal Troops let to another "vision" wherein the Mormon's changed course. Mark Twain visited early Utah and wrote that he thought he was travelling to heaven on earth until he met the women of Utah.

    Puddin' was fascinated by the HBO series "Big Love". I never got into it. I had enough headaches with one woman in my life why in god's good name would I want to double or triple my headaches? Silly.

    Worf

  25. #25
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recoveryone View Post
    This is where the abuse card gets played, if the decision of bringing another woman into the house is not shared by both, then you cannot help but have situations arise with envy, hate and distrust...
    My experience is that these dynamics come into play regardless of whether the decision is mutual at the time. I don't recommend ployamory for anyone who is in and values a relationship greater than funkbuddies...

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