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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...that's what YOU said I've said...I said I have a problem with it...but I don't have to like it nor do I have to say I do to appease anyone...Why not ask a few black women how they view the subject and how it cuts into their psyche to be considered second-class by their own...
Did I say I have a fear of homosexuals? Push aside all the doublespeak rhetoric...it's not in vogue to say "qu**r" or "f@g" so it's "gay". It's not PC to call things what they are so we need euphemisms like "alternative lifestyle"...it's all candy-coated with sugar on top...it's all pure BS with a very specific agenda...
Just what did I say that is "racist"? I have a specific viewpoint re: the subject YOU brought up, but I consider everyone OK until proven otherwise...you have some sort of problem with THAT?
So now we have they tried-and-true ploy...I agree with killing people, eh? What's next compare me to Hitler?
First of all, no you don't...you love it because you think my honesty somehow discredits me...you seem to think I wander willy-nilly into debates? I look at both sides of issues in order to understand them...sometimes that investigation changes or adjusts my position, most of the time however, it doesn't...and "hate"...well, that's your word...another part of that ploy I mentioned earlier to make me out as someone inherently evil...
jimHJJ(...have a nice day Mr. Cellophane...)
You "have a problem with" interracial marriage, but it's not motivated by racism? I don't want to think about the mental gymnastics involved in justifying that one. Please don't try and tell me it is your sympathy for black women. You bash homosexuals constantly, but aren't homophobic? Like my friends grandmother said: "I'm not racist; I just don't like blacks, asians, or mexicans."
Jim, it is quite obvious that your views are based on hatred. There is no legal, scientific, moral or ethical basis for your arguments. You try and use the bible and your personal crusade against "political correctness" to support your views, but in the end they are all just feeble justifications for your hatred.
Obviously, the civil rights worker analogy was over the top, but it was just that, an analogy. The point was that you can be bold and outspoken, but thats not necesarily a good quality when your message is hatred.
-ERic
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Well this has been an interesting thread. I have felt some tolerance and some hatred. Even a little support was shown. I was asked about my religious beliefs but that is a little too private to discuss when I am afraid the words would fall on deaf ears. As far as two screws I hope I do not have to explain how it all works. Words that are used to demean people such as *** harken back to a time when gays were burned at the stake in the middle ages. We also wore the pink triangles in Hitler's death camps. As far as the accomplishments of gays are concerned look into any field and you will find us. J Edgar Hoover was the head of the FBI. Many decorated soldiers have served in the military. Professional sport figures have come out of the closet, well not all of them. Watch the Tony's and wonder how a Broadway show could happen without us. Doctors, Attorneys, Fire fighters, Police all have gay members. Artists, Teachers, Therapists, Photographers and Welders also are well represented. We are also in the stereotyped jobs where we are expected to be. The gay pride movement has elevated all the members of the gay community and has helped us become more accepted in our communities. Violence and hate crimes are still a problem in the US but with continued education and knowledge this problem will be reduced. Imagine getting a call that your child was beaten to death because they are gay. Also if we can reduce the number of young people who commit suicide because they are gay and live with all the words and messages of hate and prejudice and are not strong enough not to take it to heart. I hope this thread has not caused undo stress for a young person struggling with their identity.
I enjoy the audio discussions and have learned a lot. Hopefully I have shared some information with others. This is a good site and I plan on being a member for a long time until I have a system as nice as Florian's. I will be out there contributing and learning and I am sure our paths will cross again. I have nothing else to share on this matter except I love all things audio.
Oh one more thing in honor of the pride marches this weekend "I AM HERE, I AM *****, AND I TWEAK"
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And you know what? 99% dont give a crap,except when its in our face and shoved down our throat. Back off and be gay. If you came to my door and was selling something,i'd be nice and listen to your pitch and then say no thanks. Come to my door selling something and start off by telling me your gay and right off the bat i'm pissed. Not because your gay but because you didnt have to shout it like i wanted to or needed to know. Like my friend says,THEY are everywhere i just dont need to know about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
And you know what? 99% dont give a crap,except when its in our face and shoved down our throat. Back off and be gay. If you came to my door and was selling something,i'd be nice and listen to your pitch and then say no thanks. Come to my door selling something and start off by telling me your gay and right off the bat i'm pissed. Not because your gay but because you didnt have to shout it like i wanted to or needed to know. Like my friend says,THEY are everywhere i just dont need to know about it.
Well I guess I am not finished. As a gay man I never announce it to anyone unless asked. Straights spend a lot more time flaunting their sexuality and as a gay man if I worked side by side with you and I had to listen about your hetero lifestyle ya then I would share my life. So if you do not want to hear about mine don't bother me with yours.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
And you know what? 99% dont give a crap,except when its in our face and shoved down our throat. Back off and be gay. If you came to my door and was selling something,i'd be nice and listen to your pitch and then say no thanks. Come to my door selling something and start off by telling me your gay and right off the bat i'm pissed. Not because your gay but because you didnt have to shout it like i wanted to or needed to know. Like my friend says,THEY are everywhere i just dont need to know about it.
This is a little off the topic but what you said is exactly how I feel about religions. I don't give a crap about people's religious convictions, I just don't want it shoved down my throat. I don't feel that people do that on this board but in life and especially now in politics they do. Everyone's religious convictions are their own and don't apply the same way for everyone. People believe that it has to be right because that is what "their interpretation" of the Bible says. It is issues like the one in this thread that I feel that the Bible was interpreted wrong, taken out of context, or just plain wrong. If God thinks gay people are evil then why did he create them? What kind of Christian would hate or at least be uncomfortable with a creature God created?
The inability to accept gay people comes from man-made gender roles. Gay men violate these gender roles and make straight men uncomfortable because for some reason feeling alright with gay people makes a man less of a man.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Well I guess I am not finished. As a gay man I never announce it to anyone unless asked. Straights spend a lot more time flaunting their sexuality and as a gay man if I worked side by side with you and I had to listen about your hetero lifestyle ya then I would share my life. So if you do not want to hear about mine don't bother me with yours.
Oh boy,you have got to give me an example,please.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
Oh boy,you have got to give me an example,please.
perhaps i dont mind gay people too much since i know quite a few at work and school. the ones i know, atleast, are just as nice as anyone else, except its pretty obvious they are gay. I don't want to know what they do behind closed doors, but at work they act professional just as anyone else wood and thats what matters.
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Could care less if someones gay,Christian,devil worshiper,whatever. Realy,dont care. I dont need to know because if i wanted,i'd ask.
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Well John you're a brave man.
Regardless of what you think you and your brethern ARE forcing gay on the majority by pressing for the redefinition of marriage outside of the democratic process. Come on.
It is not only disagreeable but harmful to your cause, as has been proven repeatedly in the public arena.
Eric, looking at your post before the bruhaha hit I come to the conclusion that you consider anyone who's against gay marriage to be homophobic. That is regretable imo, and shows lack of any real rebuttal.
Not ONE rebuttal to my reasoning has yet been put forth, outside of because some folks want to or it's because we're Bible-thumping homophobes. If it is so important, you'd think SOMEONE would have thought their reasoning through.
Where are we? Don't we WANT to know what people actually THINK, or are we content with mouthed platitudes about freedom?
Anyone who tries to coherce people to silence in public is an enemy of the state. In the US the state is the people and we are VERY well armed. This will comfort folks who believe it. It is a threat to those who would be tyrants either defacto or in fact.
Even liberals used to say, in my lifetime, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it." I assume that platform has been abandoned.
The reason Clintons' "Town Hall" meetings on racism was a total failure was because it was orchestrated - a farce. What people really think will either be recognised or explode. And the fact is, a LOT of folks of all races and walks of life believe things the other person doesn't. EVERYONE of every race knows/has met/has a relative that was racist. Even now I know folks who have a problem with "miscegenation" - my age. A hillbilly, who lives in the ghetto and would give the shirt off his back (and practically has) to anyone of any race that needed it, including putting them up in his home. A blue collar black guy, a decent guy who watches out for the kids in the neighborhood (and has an air pump for their balls and bikes, again regardless of race) who I am proud to call my friend (his dad thinks whites are evil). Even a middle-class Puerto Rican I had a conversation with.
I suppose that, since they don't meet our high standards of decency, like the 7 year olds doing the bumb and grind, they don't deserve our wonderful acceptance, let alone constitutional protections. Those poor saps.
Imagine, speaking their mind, how horrible. We are SO superior for judging them. They're only about hate and intolerance. How can we POSSIBLY tolerate that? I hate those people!
Plus the fact this is not a racial issue. By definition homosexuals cannot be a race.
Weak, Eric. Come up with something substantial.
Jeff, thanks for explaining the mysteries of male and female. I've got two tests: next time a kids' over, put out a doll and a popgun. Watch which gender goes for which. It's not 100%, there has always been effeminnate men and masculine women, but I bet it tops 70 - I suppose it's our collective brainwashing since birth. Then, the next time your girlfriend has her monthly visitor, ask her to be more like a man. Report back.
If you'd like to know what the Bible says about the subect of evil, try actually reading it. I'll say this: it does NOT say being gay is evil. It says sin in evil. It says we ALL fall short in the sight of God - including me. However, it does say to attempt to follow Gods rules, to quote Jesus: "If you love me, you will obey my commandments".
How can a Christian feel uncomfortable with one of His creatures? Consider Satan, or any of the many humans who have done His bidding. And remember, you asked.
Ever hear of voting your conscience? If you remove "religious" from your statements about convictions then everyone that doesn't agree with me is forcing something down my throat. Last I checked, I still have the freedom to choose why I have my convictions.
John, using Hoover as an example is a BAD idea. Because of his tyrsts with male prostitutes (which would still be a scandal today) he allowed the mob to blackmail him, and grow unfettered. And forgive me a chuckle when I read that the gay community is active on Broadway, and also some stereotypical roles :D .
Of course, no one said you were unproductive in society. The only reason so far is still that you're a nice guy who wants marriage redefined. What, exactly, will society gain from giving you what you want?
Pete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piece-it pete
Smokey,
Thanks for stating the best, most lucid reason anyone has posted.
This is why public decency is so important, why Janet should keep her breasts to herself, and Howard, well, should just shut up :D . This has been understood for many many centuries, various cultures' misdeeds/missteps notwithstanding.
Kids DO model their parents, not a shred of doubt. And whatever they grow up in is normal. This is why the Supreme Court has always allowed various words to be censored, even today, and has not accepted the recent challenge to Floridas' ban on adoption by gay couples, allowing it to stand.
There's other secular reasons. Diluting the definition of marriage makes it meaningless, ie if it means everything it means nothing. If denying gays the benifits of marriage is immoral and wrong then denying those benifits to singles, polygamists, and yes even the animal and kid crowd is by logical extension immoral and wrong too.
If one wants to refute this here I'd sure like to hear a better reason than "that's not true" or "don't be rediculous". The extension is valid, as proven by the pro-gay "marriage" Mass. legislators who argued the very thing during their debate ("I could not in good conscience tell my neighbor he was wrong").
GF, I agree with you, however the gay lobby is forcing the issue into Federal territory by arguing that the sancticty of contract clause of the US Constitution covers this and they may be right. They are sueing the various States to FORCE them to accept marriage contracts legitimized by other States, regardless of their own State constitution. This is happening as we speak, and is serious. The only way to stop this is to amend the US Constitution. There is no other way.
I have to add to the "dead white men" thing. Not only did they create the most sucessful nation the world has ever known, what will soon be the first (and only) multiracial democracy in existence, but also died by the hundreds of thousands to right that particular wrong. If the Founders had forced abolition to be a requirement in the Constitution, the US would not be, and some of the southern colonies undoubtably would have suceeded in creating the empires (built on slavery) that they invisioned ringing the Gulf of Mexico.
Please forgive my spelling, I'm at work and NOT contributing to the GNP!! :D
Pete
Pete,
I read your original argument :)
First, obviously, you have the right to say what you like. I also have the right to call it BS and homophobia. Saying that an argument is based in hatred and homophobia is much different than saying that you are not entitled to your opinion. I am open to the possibility that you can be against gay marriage without being the least bit homophobic, but generally, it seems very unlikely. And let us be clear, practically speaking there is little difference between racism and homophobia. obviously homosexuals are not a race, but the discrimination and hostility they experience is the same.
Do those of you who are so set against this idea have many gay friends? ANY gay friends? not acquantances, neighbors, or former coworkers, but people to whom you are very close, like immediate family members or best friends. If you do, you must know that they did not choose their sexuality. Can you honestly say to yourself that someone would just one day decide to become an outcast, a second class citizen? Have you seen the process of someone coming out to their family and friends? Why would anyone put themselves through that? These are people we are talking about, just like you. Please, just put yourselves in those shoes for a little bit.
I brought up the interracial thing because RL's argument is the same argument segregationists were making against integration. It was different. It made them uncomfortable. "The very fabric of our society will fall apart" they said (don't forget the suthern drawl).
Should we be revisiting the segregationists arguments and policies?
Sure, there are decent people who feel this way, but it is pure hogwash, born out of fear.
The fact that racism is common throughout the world does not make it legitimate.
There is a huge population of gay couples who spend their lives committed to each other who have no hosptial visitation rights, no inheritance rights, no family rights, etc. The list goes on. They love each other and want to make lifelong commitments under the law and their god. They deserve those basic rights that hetero married couples take for granted. In the eyes of the law they are complete strangers.
Call me weak, but it is the extension of gay marriage to bestiality or child rape that is truly weak. We are talking about two consenting adults here, and a very siginificant percentage of the world population, who contribute positively to all levels of society. Equating homosexuality with child molestors or bestiality is indeed nothing more than a ridiculous and offensive cop-out which cannot be taken seriously.
gotta go to sleep.
eric
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Well you have the right to be gay and thats ok. I have the right to think its not ok for same sex marriage. Sorry but marriage is between a man and women. I guess we differ but thats ok to.
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I exposed the Lie of "traditional marriage."
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Originally Posted by piece-it pete
hmmm I don't see man to man there....
And this wasn't a predominantly religious thread, I just wanted to know. How about addressing the other concerns?
RGA if all other societies have had some sort of marriage then what's up with the Bible stuff?
Pete
One thing that keeps cropping up is that there is some "traditional marriage" institution which goes way back and never changed. That is flatly false. Marriage has changed many times in the past and in major ways. I have just proved it using the Bible and there's lots more material out there.
Some of you guys act as if you have an insight into some Platonic Eidos of 'Marriage.' We have some who just say there is a definition of marriage as a voluntary union between a man and a woman--which, incomplete as it is, is simply not such a historical definition of marriage. It is quite obvious that is NOT what marriage has been in the past and in many parts of the world, still is not.
In fact, you and many others (the Pope, the conferences of Bishops, among others) have taken a definition you like and impose it on the myriad data of history. It's like, this is what we mean by marriage and we'll divide everything up so we know what is marriage and what is not marriage, more or less, based on this definition you have set up. But in fact there have been same sex relationships in the past recognized in customs and laws. To exclude them simply because you do not approve of them is simply not good history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_sex_marriage
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John, with all due respect...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
Straights spend a lot more time flaunting their sexuality and as a gay man if I worked side by side with you and I had to listen about your hetero lifestyle...
...nearly every homosexual or lesbian I have met, revel in their "lifestyle" and have gone to great lengths to wear their sexuality on their sleeve...perhaps YOU are different. I have found many people think their persona reflects much of society in general and IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. I actually do a full stop at stopsigns and don't run red lights, so I am still amazed(and chagrined) at how many people ignore the simple, basic rules.
A little story. Early in my worklife(not career) I was required to do field work...visiting private homes and businesses...During one of these visits, one fellow, whose apartment I was working in, started telling me of his experiences on Broadway, in the theater. Out of the clear blue, he announces "...and as you can plainly see, I'm as gay as a Christmas goose..." My hand to God, no hype...up 'til that point there was little or no interaction with him. Yes, he seemed a bit off with his two great danes in this tiny apartment, but hey, this is NYC...if it ain't happnin' here, it's nowhere.
Insofar as your "stereotype" of straight guys, and that's what it is like it or not, you have singled out the macho-jock(jerk) types as an example of the species...the kind who are loud, obnoxious and swill beer, eating salty, fatty snacks while urging the team onward to victory. They also seem to validate their "manhood" by recounting their conquests...I, myself despise those of their ilk and, got some news for ya' pal, we ain't all like that... first of all a gentleman never kisses and tells. Secondly, we all aren't into sports...at least in the style just described. Some of us actually particpate in outdoor activities and go about quietly as we do so.
I share responsibilites with my wife...I cook(quite well thank you), I clean, I also wash and sew...I love classical music and jazz...and I'm a sucker for animals...I also have a sense of style in my attire...you won't see dirty, smelly sweats on me, anytime, anyplace...Let me say one word guys...mirror. I'm also a furniture maker, carpenter, gardener, electrician and all around handyman and DIYer in my spare time. I also play a few instruments and did so semi-professionally for quite some time
With all of my domestic skills, some reading this may say I'm not a "real" man...On the contrary, knowing how to do those things makes you more of what a "real" man is...able to fend for himself in nearly all circumstances...being self-reliant and highly opinionated is just the icing on the cake.
Personally, I couldn't give a rat's@$$ if you enjoy plookin' little green monkeys in a tub full of jell-o, but, as shokhead observed some few posts ago, we just don't like things "...in our face..." 24/7..
jimHJJ(..take me or leave me, warts and all...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...nearly every homosexual or lesbian I have met, revel in their "lifestyle" and have gone to great lengths to wear their sexuality on their sleeve...perhaps YOU are different. I have found many people think their persona reflects much of society in general and IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. I actually do a full stop at stopsigns and don't run red lights, so I am still amazed(and chagrined) at how many people ignore the simple, basic rules.
A little story. Early in my worklife(not career) I was required to do field work...visiting private homes and businesses...During one of these visits, one fellow, whose apartment I was working in, started telling me of his experiences on Broadway, in the theater. Out of the clear blue, he announces "...and as you can plainly see, I'm as gay as a Christmas goose..." My hand to God, no hype...up 'til that point there was little or no interaction with him. Yes, he seemed a bit off with his two great danes in this tiny apartment, but hey, this is NYC...if it ain't happnin' here, it's nowhere.
Insofar as your "stereotype" of straight guys, and that's what it is like it or not, you have singled out the macho-jock(jerk) types as an example of the species...the kind who are loud, obnoxious and swill beer, eating salty, fatty snacks while urging the team onward to victory. They also seem to validate their "manhood" by recounting their conquests...I, myself despise those of their ilk and, got some news for ya' pal, we ain't all like that... first of all a gentleman never kisses and tells. Secondly, we all aren't into sports...at least in the style just described. Some of us actually particpate in outdoor activities and go about quietly as we do so.
I share responsibilites with my wife...I cook(quite well thank you), I clean, I also wash and sew...I love classical music and jazz...and I'm a sucker for animals...I also have a sense of style in my attire...you won't see dirty, smelly sweats on me, anytime, anyplace...Let me say one word guys...mirror. I'm also a furniture maker, carpenter, gardener, electrician and all around handyman and DIYer in my spare time. I also play a few instruments and did so semi-professionally for quite some time
With all of my domestic skills, some reading this may say I'm not a "real" man...On the contrary, knowing how to do those things makes you more of what a "real" man is...able to fend for himself in nearly all circumstances...being self-reliant and highly opinionated is just the icing on the cake.
Personally, I couldn't give a rat's@$$ if you enjoy plookin' little green monkeys in a tub full of jell-o, but, as shokhead observed some few posts ago, we just don't like things "...in our face..." 24/7..
jimHJJ(..take me or leave me, warts and all...)
First let me explain what I meant about having to listen to each other at work. In my life I have always found it unfair for a man to say "gee the wife and I went to a great concert last night" and I mention that my partner and I went to see a play and I am reported for flaunting my sexuality. I certainly do not discuss sexual activities but I do not stand idly by while someone is telling offensive, to me, gay jokes.
What has really been interesting in your last post is how similar our realtionships, hobbies and interests are. My partner and I love to camp. He loves dogs as do I but he is the better trainer. He is a welder and metal fabricator and loves to restore old muscle cars. I am the collector of antiques and love hand crafted furniture. I am shopping for a pair of traditionally made Windsor chairs right now. I am trying to learn to cook. I can follow recipes but I do not have the creative flair in the kitchen. I love classical and jazz and B is a heavy metal head banger. I have no fashion sense and the membership committee has mentioned this to me a number of times. A gay man wearing Carharts and t-shirts. What I wanted to make a point of more than anything is the fact that any couple shares the same hopes, needs and desires regardless of the bodies in which our souls were placed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
One thing that keeps cropping up is that there is some "traditional marriage" institution which goes way back and never changed. That is flatly false. Marriage has changed many times in the past and in major ways. I have just proved it using the Bible and there's lots more material out there.
The Christian view has never changed from the New Testament teaching.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
First let me explain what I meant about having to listen to each other at work. In my life I have always found it unfair for a man to say "gee the wife and I went to a great concert last night" and I mention that my partner and I went to see a play and I am reported for flaunting my sexuality. I certainly do not discuss sexual activities but I do not stand idly by while someone is telling offensive, to me, gay jokes.
What has really been interesting in your last post is how similar our realtionships, hobbies and interests are. My partner and I love to camp. He loves dogs as do I but he is the better trainer. He is a welder and metal fabricator and loves to restore old muscle cars. I am the collector of antiques and love hand crafted furniture. I am shopping for a pair of traditionally made Windsor chairs right now. I am trying to learn to cook. I can follow recipes but I do not have the creative flair in the kitchen. I love classical and jazz and B is a heavy metal head banger. I have no fashion sense and the membership committee has mentioned this to me a number of times. A gay man wearing Carharts and t-shirts. What I wanted to make a point of more than anything is the fact that any couple shares the same hopes, needs and desires regardless of the bodies in which our souls were placed.
Explain reported for flaunting my sexuality.
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So, let me ask you...
... nothing on God's green earth gets up your nose...no discomfort you may experience is motivated by some class or social distinction...yeah, I'm sure...how about the way someone looks...or if they're fat, or wear glasses, or how they dress or what they wear or maybe the car they drive? Any degree of displeasure? Does that come from "wisdom and compassion".
How many Black folks are still waitin' for the "pie-in-the-sky" and blame "whitey" for their problems...even when people like Bill Cosby and Rev. Calvin Butts castigate their own for squandering the opportunities the civil right movement afforded them...
Am I a "racist"...bet your "queso grande" @$$...as much of one as anyone who is proud of their heritage...as much as the Black man who has pride in the 54th Regiment during the Civil War or the Tuskeegee Airmen of WWll and can't understand why there is such a thing as "separate but equal" or Jim Crow...Ask him if he might fit THAT definition of "racist"...
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Originally Posted by ericl
You "have a problem with" interracial marriage, but it's not motivated by racism?
Never said it wasn't did I...I have a problem with it...period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
Please don't try and tell me it is your sympathy for black women.
I guess I'll have to use really broad strokes to get the message across, eh? The bleedin' obvoius not quite enough? The point, why not ask people from either side of the fence their opinion on the subject...outside of your small circle of friends, that is...no one else in the entire universe has an opinion that disagrees with yours I suppose...Do take into account that PC-lie factor mentioned earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
...You bash homosexuals constantly, but aren't homophobic?...
Again...it's not because they engage in what I consider deviant, nihilistic, self-gratifying, random sexual behavior or because THEY are offended since I will not accept a steady diet of their rhetoric supporting laws upholding their "lifestyle"...it's all MY fault...I see, I must be punished...bad(whack!) naughty(whack!) Jim(whack!)...WTF offends me? I can't be offended and say something about it? Am I the only one? And why do you single ME out from the many...because you think it's oh so easy to do so given my blatantly opinionated self? I'm just saying what few have the cojones to say out loud...no one wants to offend...or wants to be branded a "pariah" by the "gold star" gang...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
Jim, it is quite obvious that your views are based on hatred.... they are all just feeble justifications for your hatred....when your message is hatred.
Hatred, racist, hatred, racist, hatred...like subliminal messages you expect to plant the seed of RL=KKK...Do you work for any political organization?...you should you know, they could use your "talent"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
...You try and use the bible...
Yeah, I'm a regular Jerry Falwell...Bible-thumper from way back...I mention two infamous Biblical cities and before you know it, it's guilt by association..."Cellophane, Mr. Cellophane, shoulda' been your name, Mr. Cellophane"...Cheez...and he quotes show tune lyrics too!!!
Problems with my anti-PC attitude?..."...there's a big difference between putting a bone through your nose and a man on the moon" quite simply, all ideas and accomplishments are not of equal value and failure is a part of life...not everyone or everything deserves the "gold star"
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
...Obviously, the civil rights worker analogy was over the top, but it was just that, an analogy...
As a local sportscaster oftimes says "...spin...spin...spin..." given your track record, your your intent was and is painfully obvious...you shot your wad and I called your bluff...
jimHJJ(...need a little Windex, there are a few opaque spots showing...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
Explain reported for flaunting my sexuality.
The co-worker reported me to the boss for throwing my sexuality in his face because I mentioned I went to a play with my partner. I named my partner by name and did not give him a title such as partner or husband. The boss told me to be careful as I did not want a sexual harrassment complaint. I no longer work there. My choice. When I explained someone was writing death threats on the wall in the locker room I was told I could expect those when I choose to be different. I live in a fairly small town that is not too accepting.
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RL
In all the times I have replied to posts both yours and others the thing I am trying to share is that a lot of gay folks do not have random sex acts. Our relationships closely mirror yours. There are an equal or greater number of straight people running around bars looking for that nights companion. We both have members we are proud of and members we try by example to show them a better way. You have a stereotyped view of gay people and it is obvious you are going to stick to it and promote it to others.
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Gay people. Same as anybody else except they can't reproduce to keep the world evolving. But why a parade? Kinda both ways. Let us live and leave us alone. GAY PARADE TODAY.
RL,i know what you are talking about. I'm in SoCal and i dont dare say close the boarders because that translates to i hate Mexicans. I dont say if that bad guy doesnt obey the cops,shoot him because then its i hate blacks. At works if i tell the parent to get off the porch,again i hate Mexicans because she was. As a white guy i'm now keeping my mouth shut because i dont get an opition anymore. I'm getting to the point where its f#$k everybody.
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Pat,
If your tag line is true then this thread is singing in BEAUTIFUL harmony lol.
Some quotes from Wikipedia:
Calling a heterosexual union the same legal term as a homosexual union for a whole state or society is only a recent occurrence.
Same-gender romantic love or sexual desire has been recorded from ancient times in the east. Such desire often took the form of same-sex unions, usually between men, and often included some difference in age
In China, especially in the southern province of Fujian where male love was especially cultivated, men would marry youths in elaborate ceremonies. The marriages would last a number of years, at the end of which the elder partner would help the younger find a (female) wife and settle down to raise a family.
In ancient Rome, for example, the Emperor Nero is reported to have married, at different times, two other men in wedding ceremonies.
Finally, in Europe during Hellenic times, pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) who had come of age were analogous to marriage in several aspects. [pete note: Definition from Wikipedia: Pederasty, as idealized by the ancient Greeks, was a relationship and bond between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside of his immediate family. In a wider sense it refers to erotic love between adolescents and adult men.]
In Africa, among the Azande of the Congo, men would marry youths for whom they had to pay a bride-price to the father. These marriages likewise were understood to be of a temporary nature.
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I see some patterns, nothing good. And it does affirm that gay "marriage" is a new concept. Thanks rw for confirmation.
Since these other unions have been used in history, do you support those too?
Interesting they mention Nero, which ties back in to my historical comments.
Eric weak referred to the use of namecalling. Isn't that the last resort of the (your pick). You certainly have the right to call me whatever you want. I reserve the right too, and have been generally reserved. Facists and other successful tyrants have used the same method, don't have real discussion, just paint the guy evil and nail him.
I still see your only real argument is "because they want to". All the supposed legal "problems" gay couples have are already addressed through standard legal documents (boy I repeat that one a lot. must be on the gay lobbies' talking points).
I didn't make the link between gay "marriage" and other forms of possible "marriage" - some distingushed gentleman from the Mass legislature did from my earlier post (that you read):
"If one wants to refute this here I'd sure like to hear a better reason than "that's not true" or "don't be rediculous". The extension is valid, as proven by the pro-gay "marriage" Mass. legislators who argued the very thing during their debate ("I could not in good conscience tell my neighbor he was wrong")."
That was a response to a direct question about other forms of "marriage". Unfortunately I cannot find a link to transcripts of that debate - I heard this cut on the radio. If someone finds one please post it.
Hogwash is crying racism when we are supposedly denying a "right" that doesn't apply anyway.
John, how do I put this.... it sounds like you're an ok guy. If you were my neighbor I wouldn't be getting the torches and pitchforks, I'd probably be admiring the musclecars (as in drooling on them). I would not bring up this subject unless asked, if so I would state my position with no malice or rancor.
But that's an awful poor reason to massively change a successful system. You have not answered a single question. My only conclusion therefor is that you don't have an answer. It won't do - it won't work - the silent majority (mostly cowed by the pc police) want to know as well. So to be blunt you're sol. Sorry.
Pete
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Well John...
...as some sort of a representitive of the "other side"...my apologies...you were a victim of the type of goon I mentioned earlier...a real d!ck-head...and that sexual harrassment bit sounds completely bogus...I can't see how such a casual mention could be construed as any thing more than just idle chit-chat...BTW, I think your boss was d!ck-head #2...AND ericl, in case your reading this, there's a "homophobe" for ya'...
I'll take the opportunity at this time to thank you for your earlier response...I have no problem with you personally, but I still can't see the need for anything more than some sort of civil contract or simple stipulations in a will(to avoid probate) to neatly tie things together. I still "have a problem" with non-hetero "marriage", but at least you should now know where I'm comin' from...
jimHJJ(...good listening...)
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Engage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
RL
In all the times I have replied to posts both yours and others the thing I am trying to share is that a lot of gay folks do not have random sex acts. Our relationships closely mirror yours. There are an equal or greater number of straight people running around bars looking for that nights companion. We both have members we are proud of and members we try by example to show them a better way. You have a stereotyped view of gay people and it is obvious you are going to stick to it and promote it to others.
I think both our POVs are a bit myopic...NYC is a bit "different" than Ohio...random partners? He!!, there used to be clubs catering to the concept, may still be...How fast did AIDS reach epidemic proportions? Please don't tell me "safe sex" or monogamy just didn't cramp some folks style...I do have a sneaky suspicion that the call for a cure has as a part of it's basis the prospect losing the "wrapper", if you follow me...
And don't feel singled out..I have the same problem with similar hetero behavior or cohabitation without benefit of clergy...of course, that makes me a dinosaur, an old fuddy-duddy, a party-poop...Oh yes, I see, it's MY fault again...
jimHJJ(...disengage...)
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Hey Guys,
I apologize for the harsh rhetoric. It is just the way that I engage people on tough issues like this. I find that really challenging someone is the best way to help me figure out their positions, and what informs their positions. Sometimes that "challenging" can come out quite harsh.
For this reason, I've tried to stay out of political discussions on the site, because I don't want to alienate anyone. My friends and family reflect a good spectrum of the US population - half are varying degrees conservative, half varying degrees liberal. I get into it with all of them, and I still love all of them. Especially my Pops. He is very conservative and we love each other dearly.
So, I'm going to once again refrain from political discussions. Again, I apologize, and I wish I could take some things back that I said. I think you're all great people* and I hope I didn't alienate anyone.
-Eric
*I am still on the fence about the Resident Loser ;)
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As well you should be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericl
*I am still on the fence about the Resident Loser ;)
jimHJJ(...figure me out?...don't try...)
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