• 06-18-2012, 10:33 AM
    bobsticks
    Let's talk about immigration...
    "The Obama administration announced Friday that it will stop deporting law-abiding young undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and will instead begin granting them work permits."

    My initial inclination is to start throwing things.

    Obviously, I have some issues with the Constitutionality of this thing...I mean, can we really just EO an edict to break the law?

    Further, I can't see how this will help the economy at all. In fact, won't this expand the number of potential people enrolling for unemployment benefits?

    I'm looking for a little wisdom here...
  • 06-18-2012, 10:53 AM
    Hyfi
    Close the borders and deport every one that is not here legally, no matter what. All they do is steel jobs and benefits from people who deserve them and are legally here. Or there....
  • 06-18-2012, 12:07 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Close the borders and deport every one that is not here legally, no matter what. All they do is steel jobs and benefits from people who deserve them and are legally here. Or there....


    There is ample evidence that this is counter-productive. Look at what happen to states that created strong anti-immigrant laws like Georgia and Alabama. They have crops rotting on the vine, and are unable to fill backroom restaurant jobs. Employers in these states want these kinds of laws repealed. Remember, we have a aging population, who will do those difficult to fill jobs in the future.

    Next we can talk about the cost of doing what you propose, and why politicians know you cannot just deport them all.
  • 06-18-2012, 12:15 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    "The Obama administration announced Friday that it will stop deporting law-abiding young undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and will instead begin granting them work permits."

    My initial inclination is to start throwing things.

    Obviously, I have some issues with the Constitutionality of this thing...I mean, can we really just EO an edict to break the law?

    Further, I can't see how this will help the economy at all. In fact, won't this expand the number of potential people enrolling for unemployment benefits?

    I'm looking for a little wisdom here...

    Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. Granting them work permits does not equal giving them access to unemployment benefits - you need a social security number for that. This also is not a path to citizenship.

    This really pertains to exceptional students who are high achievers in education, or serving in the armed forces. Our lack of a comprehensive immigration policy is forcing us to deport some of the best of the best for reason they could not control. If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?
  • 06-18-2012, 12:47 PM
    Feanor
    The US attitudes and legislation re. illegal immigration are grossly hypocritical.

    Immigration, legal or otherwise, happens because a country needs more or cheaper labor and people are willing to come to work. Illegal immigration because American want labor but aren't willing to pay legitimately competitive wage for it. Let's face it, when you employ an "undocumented worker", you can avoid a paying a competitive wage, payroll taxes, and benefits; further you can impose unreasonable demands and avoid workplace safety rules, etc.

    Clearly a covert lobby exists in the USA that favors illegal immigration, and this lobby has seen to it that there isn't truly effective legislation and enforcement to minimize it. It's key to understand that what is needed is to deincentivize employers of illegal immigrants at least as much as the illegals themselves.

    First, and obviously, it must be major civil (not necessarily criminal) offence to knowingly employ an illegal OR unknowingly do so when one ought to have take reasonable measures to confirm their status, (sorry if seems to imply profiling).

    Secondly, but less obviously, the ability of employers to blackmail their illegal employees need to be removed. E.g. it needs to be possible for an illegal to report sub-minimum wages and other employer abuses without fear of deportation.
  • 06-18-2012, 03:07 PM
    frenchmon
    I have seen first hand the problem. While living in Durham North Carolina the government let them come in for cheaper labor. You know the Smithfield pork plaint down in Carolina? They wanted illegals because they do not want to pay fair wages. Construction works are not paid a fair wage either....so it's the illegals that take the jobs and build the houses. Government also let's them live in state for 7 years without paying tax.
  • 06-18-2012, 04:34 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. Granting them work permits does not equal giving them access to unemployment benefits - you need a social security number for that. This also is not a path to citizenship.

    I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.

    I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by T
    This really pertains to exceptional students who are high achievers in education, or serving in the armed forces. Our lack of a comprehensive immigration policy is forcing us to deport some of the best of the best for reason they could not control. If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?

    Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.

    This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.

    Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.

    To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.
  • 06-18-2012, 04:36 PM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    There is ample evidence that this is counter-productive. Look at what happen to states that created strong anti-immigrant laws like Georgia and Alabama. They have crops rotting on the vine, and are unable to fill backroom restaurant jobs. Employers in these states want these kinds of laws repealed. Remember, we have a aging population, who will do those difficult to fill jobs in the future.

    Next we can talk about the cost of doing what you propose, and why politicians know you cannot just deport them all.

    OK Fine, just deport the parents who knowingly came here illegally. And Close the borders. We don't need any more.

    What we do need is Americans to start being a little more hard working and less out for entitlement. We need to reel Capitalism in some and people need to stop being so greedy and pay a decent wage for a days work instead of getting rich while raping their employees.

    I get that illegals are more prone to take jobs where the employers hide the payroll. Fits both agendas. But, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

    It's also time that the handouts are less than what one would make on minimum wage if they expect people to work instead of stay home and collect.

    Our whole society is in debt up to our eyeballs and a lot of the money pays for all that is wrong, not what is right.
  • 06-18-2012, 04:40 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Blah, blah, blah...

    Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.
  • 06-18-2012, 06:43 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.

    Well, blah, blah yourself. 'Scuse me for looking at the big picture, but I'll guarantee that the failure to do that will result in the problem remaining unremedied forever.

    Really? Number of "undocumented" now up to 18 million"? Wow, 5% of the population? That's an absurd state of affairs.

    Frankly as I see it the President's edict indicates the fundamentally contradictory attitude Americans have to the issue of immigration, fraught as it is by self-interest of both those for & against.

    BTW, lay off the "anti-American" stuff: it's bogus. Criticism of various things that happen in the USA doesn't constitute anti-Americanism. I always try to offer constructive criticism -- well it seems constructive to me; if it doesn't to you maybe it's because your brain is wedged in a reactionary disposition.

    Bear in mind that if you were a true "libertarian", (apart from there being no such thing), you would pose no bounds at all to immigration -- you'd just let the market decide who comes in.
  • 06-18-2012, 06:48 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. ....
    ... If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?

    WTF?!? What's this talk of fairness? Compassion even? That's damned liberal talk.
  • 06-19-2012, 01:45 AM
    dingus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.

    Thoreau, Parks and many others have shown that not all laws are just... only putting that out there for some reference on what is legal or illegal. on the point of bearing the responsibility of a citizen, for those born on US soil there arent any requirements for maintaining citizenship outside those made by individual choice (expats, traitors).


    Quote:

    I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.
    actually we do... handicapped, disabled, married, elderly etc.


    Quote:

    Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.

    This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.
    the authority of the office allows the President to enact policy in regards to enforcement of federal law. it may very well be only an election year ploy, but its still perfectly constitutional.


    Quote:

    Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.
    i like this idea. the US became a great country mostly because of an open immigration policy. methinks it might do us some good in these times as well.


    Quote:

    To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.
    if an illegal immigrant is paying income taxes would they meet a requirement of civic responsibility?
  • 06-19-2012, 06:28 AM
    GMichael
    I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

    Thank you for playing by the rules.
  • 06-19-2012, 06:51 AM
    ForeverAutumn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

    Thank you for playing by the rules.

    That seems to make the most sense to me. Sure it's not the child's fault that she was brought into the country illegally, but what's stopping her from applying for citizenship once she's old enough? If you're old enough for the governement to grant you a work permit then you should be old enough to apply for citizenship.

    Why not just help them be here legally? They should earn their right to priviledges by becoming a citizen.
  • 06-19-2012, 07:01 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    That seems to make the most sense to me. Sure it's not the child's fault that she was brought into the country illegally, but what's stopping her from applying for citizenship once she's old enough? If you're old enough for the governement to grant you a work permit then you should be old enough to apply for citizenship.

    Why not just help them be here legally? They should earn their right to priviledges by becoming a citizen.

    It's a multi-step process. First they'll need a Visa and a work permit. Then a green card (Permanent Resident). Then they have to stay in the country for 2-3 years. (I don't remember how long it was now). Then applying for citizenship is another process.

    The whole thing took my wife over 6 years of red tape, but they could at least take that first step.
  • 06-19-2012, 09:12 AM
    recoveryone
    Many broad statements have been made solely on ones location, background, and interaction with those that fall into this category. Americas history on immigration has always been based on politico views and what advantage can be gain from the current policy. From slavery to the current Hispanic wave, America has changed its immigration laws to suit its own needs, and not by the words placed at the foot of the Statue of Liberty.

    After Slavery, the Chinese were welcome to build the railroad, once done laws changed to restrict all Chinese coming to America, Same was done in early 1900s with the same Hispanic group who was the major labor force in the Southwest. Once the industrial machines could replace the manpower, immigration and drug laws changed (Weed was legal and heavy use by Hispanics). The Japanese during WWII, and during the 80's if you were Cuban you could stay, but if you were from Haiti you were sent back.
  • 06-19-2012, 11:50 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.

    Sticks, you cannot seperate the circumstances because that is the basis for which this law got passed. As a two year old, I am not responsible directly to any government, I am the responsibility of my parents. If they go left, I have to go left. If they cross a boarder illegally with me in tow, I have no choice whatsoever in the decision making process, or whatever outcome happens once we get there. The DREAM act compassionately addresses the fact that some of these children grow up to be exceptional law abiding young adults, and we should not turn whatever contribution they can give this country away.

    Quote:

    I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.
    We have in the past though. Affirmative Action is special rules for a special class of people - folks that have been victims of purposeful racism. In this case, our ignoring a long standing problem has put is in a position that we cannot afford the easy way out. That is to round all illegals up and deport them. That is a budget busting proposition.



    Quote:

    Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.
    I am sure you are well aware of the dynamic that is hitting this country. It is called paralysis. We cannot get anything done because we are so polarized, and nobody wants to put their political career on the line even to do the right thing. This is the right thing even if it is just temporary. Somebody has to make a move since neither the house of senate seems capable or willing to do so. If they had before this problem got 8-12 million people bad, then we would not be talking about this issue. It is just like small things happening to a car that leads to major expensive things. If you don't deal with those small things, they come back to bite you as a huge thing.

    Quote:

    This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.
    Everything these days is political..even when it is not. Here is the reality. If we had a Republican President who was looking to score points with Latino's, they would have done exactly the same thing. They got beat to the punch, and were simply out maneuvered here. Keep in mind, this is only for the next two years. The House and Senate have two years to address this band-aid, and I am willing to bet the forces of the current majority in this country will not let this happen. The Tea Party came into existence to address this very issue - to create policies and an environment that is more like the 40's and 50's where the white majority ruled all faucets of life, and minorities understand their place and served that majority.

    Quote:

    Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.

    To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.
    Sticks, it is a fact that Hispanics typically vote Democrat, and when they are in large numbers will elected their own to govern them. Some whites in this country see their population shrinking, and see Hispanics growing, and feel they are losing control of power. You have a black/white President, and his cabinet and close staff with more blacks than ever. Some middle and southern whites are scared to death at what they are seeing, and will never let any kind of legislation that allows 8-12 million Democrat voting Hispanics to get their citizenship. THEY WILL NEVER LET IT HAPPEN! All that will do is speed the course of time in which the Hispanic population becomes the majority, and they are in the minority. The word "Amnesty" is a profoundly dirty word to Republicans, and with the Tea Party rising fast within the party, they would never support such a bold and smart move. This is not about civic responsibility, it is about maintaining the current power structure.

    We often blame illegal immigrants for falling wages, but wages have been falling long before illegal immigration has become a problem. It is the corporation, companies, and the wealthy that control wages in this country. In order to continue to divide and confuse the masses(while they continue to take more and more power) the elite in this country are attempting(with profound success) in pitting one individual against another. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and it is being used skillfully by the elite to continue to concentrate power into just a few hands. Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.
  • 06-19-2012, 11:54 AM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.

    Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.
  • 06-19-2012, 12:47 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    ...
    We often blame illegal immigrants for falling wages, but wages have been falling long before illegal immigration has become a problem. It is the corporation, companies, and the wealthy that control wages in this country. In order to continue to divide and confuse the masses (while they continue to take more and more power) the elite in this country are attempting (with profound success) in pitting one individual against another. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and it is being used skillfully by the elite to continue to concentrate power into just a few hands. Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.

    Precisely, Sir T. :yesnod: I couldn't have said it better, (though I've tried).
  • 06-19-2012, 12:49 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.

    It was reported today that "Asian" immigrants are now outnumbering Latino.
  • 06-19-2012, 02:48 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    It was reported today that "Asian" immigrants are now outnumbering Latino.

    Not out numbering them quite yet, but there were certainly more Asians coming into the country in 2010 by a 36 to 31 percent margin. As a percentage of population(and if this rate continues) it will still take decades for Asians to surpass the Hispanic population in this country - and that is if Hispanics stop having the amount of babies they are currently having.

    The good thing for Asians is they will do better her than Hispanics have because they are more education and affluent in most cases.
  • 06-19-2012, 04:23 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.

    Lol, you do realize that there are people besides Mexicans that are involved in the politics of illegal immigration, right? :biggrin5:

    (In my own little part of the world Russians and Philipinos are a much greater percentage of that populace, so maybe we think of it from a more "worldy" perspective)
  • 06-19-2012, 04:24 PM
    bobsticks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

    Thank you for playing by the rules.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you....a daily, neverending supply of Greenies for you...let's make us some brand-spankin' new, tax-paying citizens!
  • 06-19-2012, 06:27 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    ... Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.

    And, BTW, we could add labor unions and the supposed greed of teachers, police, and firemen to that list.
  • 06-21-2012, 02:52 PM
    Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Lol, you do realize that there are people besides Mexicans that are involved in the politics of illegal immigration, right? :biggrin5:

    (In my own little part of the world Russians and Philipinos are a much greater percentage of that populace, so maybe we think of it from a more "worldy" perspective)

    Sorry Sticks, but this law for all intended purposes is aimed directly at Mexicans, and every other south of our border country. I am not hearing reports of Russian or Philipino children being separated from their parents because of this issue. They would benefit from this for sure, but they were not really this laws target.