Kids Throwing Rocks at Cars Thrown in Jail

You're right, far too many fall through the cracks. I think it is down to all of us to do our bit, and if we like it or not we are all members of the same species. Be that you, me, or some neglected young person taken a wrong turn.
My wife has placed 6 young people with me in the last 8 years and 5 are doing ok.

Peace

Bernd:16:

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Originally Posted by Bernd

You're right, far too many fall through the cracks. I think it is down to all of us to do our bit, and if we like it or not we are all members of the same species. Be that you, me, or some neglected young person taken a wrong turn.
My wife has placed 6 young people with me in the last 8 years and 5 are doing ok.

Peace

Bernd:16:

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...there are those who continue to produce children of despair...there are those in society who know no other way and even when given the tools to turn things around, refuse to do so because doing the right thing is far too "difficult".

There is little one can do other than resort to more totalitarian measures to stem the flow or more Draconian ones after the fact...

jimHJJ(...politics ain't my forte...)

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...there are those who continue to produce children of despair...there are those in society who know no other way and even when given the tools to turn things around, refuse to do so because doing the right thing is far too "difficult".

There is little one can do other than resort to more totalitarian measures to stem the flow or more Draconian ones after the fact...

jimHJJ(...politics ain't my forte...)

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Hi Jim,

I agree that effort is not cool any more. But before we lock young people up and throw away the key let's exhaust the other possibilities. Any living species will throw up the odd bad egg. I get it in my dogs. Carefull selection of the Sire and the Dam and yet you still get the odd bad one now and then.
I think parenting skills are disappearing, not that the old methods of beatings and harsh discipline produced great results. However we had the value of right and wrong instilled into us. That seems to have gone away too. But surely as eggs is eggs the tide can be turned. Unfortunatly not with mindless incarceration or shouts of revenge.
And Jim politics isn't my forte either.

Peace

Bernd:6:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...there are those who continue to produce children of despair...there are those in society who know no other way and even when given the tools to turn things around, refuse to do so because doing the right thing is far too "difficult".

There is little one can do other than resort to more totalitarian measures to stem the flow or more Draconian ones after the fact...

jimHJJ(...politics ain't my forte...)

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Difficult is the wrong word,it should be too much work.

...the odd "bad-egg" isn't the problem...IMO there is a societal breakdown; it's the whole poultry farm that is suspect...I see young (like maybe 4-5yr. olds) out of control and parents who do nothing to stop them (and I don't mean folks on the bottom rungs of the ladder either)...SUV-type soccer moms and the b@!!-less wonders they are married to who don't have one friggin' clue...these are folks who should know better...couple that insanity with the hard-core generational "poor" baby-factories who think drugs and crime or some pie-in-the-sky avenue are viable alternatives to hard work and we have an ever-growing epidemic...

jimHJJ(...talk about a needle in a haystack...)

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Originally Posted by shokhead

Difficult is the wrong word,it should be too much work.

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...it should be: "...there are those in society who know no other way and even when given the tools to turn things around, refuse to do so because doing the right thing would cause these lazy, shiftless, walking piles of excrement, to get up off their spotty @$$es and take personal responsibility for once in their p!$$poor excuses for a life..."

jimHJJ(...I hope that clarifies things a bit...)

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...the odd "bad-egg" isn't the problem...IMO there is a societal breakdown; it's the whole poultry farm that is suspect...I see young (like maybe 4-5yr. olds) out of control and parents who do nothing to stop them (and I don't mean folks on the bottom rungs of the ladder either)...SUV-type soccer moms and the b@!!-less wonders they are married to who don't have one friggin' clue...these are folks who should know better...couple that insanity with the hard-core generational "poor" baby-factories who think drugs and crime or some pie-in-the-sky avenue are viable alternatives to hard work and we have an ever-growing epidemic...

jimHJJ(...talk about a needle in a haystack...)

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Well Jim,

I agree with the breakdown and out of control points. We have the same over here and it appears to be Government encouraged. It is indeed a real problem that affects us all and will be getting worse I am sure.
This is a very depressing thought.
Time for one or two cool ones me thinks.

Peace

Bernd:16:

Once upon a time, when kids were bad in school, the school would punish them. I know teachers who had special paddles for these kids. Some of these paddles even had names, like Equalizer or Corrector, and even The Punisher. When these "bad" kids were intimately introduced to these paddles, a call would go out to their parents. When they got home, these kids would be in even more trouble. They'd get punished much more than what the school would put out.
Then, somewhere along the line, parents flipped on the system. Once their teary eyed little brats turned up the water works, the parents would threaten the school. Some parents sued. Some teachers got disciplined for disciplining the kids. Next thing you know, teachers were afraid to discipline the kids that needed it the most. The admin sides with the parents instead of the teachers. So now instead of the one or two "bad" kids per class, you have over half of them doing as they please knowing that nothing can be done to them. Could these kids be turned around? Sure, but someone has to care about them enough to punish them when they are bad. Not just give in because it's hard or they don't want to see their kid cry. The system starts at home. The schools can only do so much without support from the parents.

Bernd, great job taking in those kids and giving them another chance. The world's kids needs more people like you to help out.

...parochial school for twelve years (which accounts for a lot)...got whacked on the knuckes once, had a chalkboard eraser sent my way once and went to the principal's office once (only resulted in a weeks detention, causing me to miss some extra-curricular activities, but I got the message)...you wouldn't dare tell your parents...you took it and sucked it up...besides they'd agree you deserved it and in my cases I did...nothing major, just class-clown-cr@p...

jimHJJ(...part of the learning experience...)

My grandfather (mothers father) was the headmaster at our local village school. Year one to six. I was the last lot he taught. German and Maths. Yep, keys flew across the room and a cane did his work. Not in a sadistic manner, but in a meassured and needed way.
I always remember how much importance he did place on fairness, silence and education. And how much he rewarded effort and honesty. If you told the truth he understood, but boy if you didn't.....
What has happened to the School system?

Peace

Bernd:16:

What has happened to the school system,parents. System works for those who use it.

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Originally Posted by GMichael

Once upon a time, when kids were bad in school, the school would punish them. I know teachers who had special paddles for these kids. Some of these paddles even had names, like Equalizer or Corrector, and even The Punisher. When these "bad" kids were intimately introduced to these paddles, a call would go out to their parents. When they got home, these kids would be in even more trouble. They'd get punished much more than what the school would put out.
Then, somewhere along the line, parents flipped on the system. Once their teary eyed little brats turned up the water works, the parents would threaten the school. Some parents sued. Some teachers got disciplined for disciplining the kids. Next thing you know, teachers were afraid to discipline the kids that needed it the most. The admin sides with the parents instead of the teachers. So now instead of the one or two "bad" kids per class, you have over half of them doing as they please knowing that nothing can be done to them. Could these kids be turned around? Sure, but someone has to care about them enough to punish them when they are bad. Not just give in because it's hard or they don't want to see their kid cry. The system starts at home. The schools can only do so much without support from the parents.

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I don't know about how things are in other countries, but in Canada it's even worse than that. We had a Federal Act called The Young Offenders Act. The basics of the YOA is that if you are arrested for a crime and you are under the age of 18, you cannot receive a sentence that goes beyond your age 18. Neither your name nor face can be made public. Any criminal record that you earn is erased when you turn 18 and you start over with a clean slate.

The purpose of the YOA was to allow for children to make stupid mistakes and not have to pay for them for life. The result is the creation of a system where young offenders know that they can do whatever they want and receive minimal punishment. We have murderers and rapists living in our neighbourhoods and we aren't allowed to know who they are because the YOA protects these young criminals instead of protecting their victims and potential victims.

This Act was replaced in 2003 by The Youth Criminal Justice Act. The new YCJA was supposed to clear up some the gray areas in the YOA. To date, I haven't noticed any improvement in how young offenders are handled or sentenced. Certainly, there appears to be nothing in the Act to act as a deterent to keep young people from committing crimes. Those that do commit crimes continue to be protected by the new Act.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

I don't know about how things are in other countries, but in Canada it's even worse than that. We had a Federal Act called The Young Offenders Act. The basics of the YOA is that if you are arrested for a crime and you are under the age of 18, you cannot receive a sentence that goes beyond your age 18. Neither your name nor face can be made public. Any criminal record that you earn is erased when you turn 18 and you start over with a clean slate.

The purpose of the YOA was to allow for children to make stupid mistakes and not have to pay for them for life. The result is the creation of a system where young offenders know that they can do whatever they want and receive minimal punishment. We have murderers and rapists living in our neighbourhoods and we aren't allowed to know who they are because the YOA protects these young criminals instead of protecting their victims and potential victims.

This Act was replaced in 2003 by The Youth Criminal Justice Act. The new YCJA was supposed to clear up some the gray areas in the YOA. To date, I haven't noticed any improvement in how young offenders are handled or sentenced. Certainly, there appears to be nothing in the Act to act as a deterent to keep young people from committing crimes. Those that do commit crimes continue to be protected by the new Act.

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Hopefully the system will start to get better. But there are so many different views that there is no way to make everyone happy.
One of the times I was in the Philippines, I invited my wife's family out for a nice dinner at a 5 star restaurant. It would be a nice treat for them as they had never even been to a McDonalds. Well, our idea of family is different than theirs. 42 people ended up at this dinner. Over 30 of them were children under the age of 13. My second thought was what a free-for-all this many kids would create in this fine establishment. To my surprise, not one loud voice was heard. No running, no fighting, none of them even got out of their chairs. It was amazing. Turns out, that if a kid was to have acted up, the parents would have whacked them on the side of the head the way my Italian mom used to do to us when we were kids.

But that same week there was this guy on their TV who had been tortured to get a confession that he had killed his wife. Turned out that he didn't do it. The real killer was found. In the mean time this guy had burn marks down his arms from where he was being subjected to high voltage by the police.

Where do we draw that fine line?

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Originally Posted by Bernd

Hi Jim,

I agree that the actions of these boys are despicable and I don't have the answers.:confused: But my main point is that prison doesn't seem to be working as we have to build more and more and there are record numbers of repeat offenders. So I was making the point that it probably isn't going to "Rehabilitate" or "change" these young men. I totally agree that we need to be protected and that these actions should not go unpunished - my question is - Is prison the right thing or - is it the only thing we have available to use - have we explored all the alternatives? The answer is probably to start a lot younger with amending this behaviour and making young people accountable. The problem is western society wide (it doesn't seem so prevalent in other cultures). I have first hand experience as my wife works in this field and she has really good examples of young people being turned around through intensive support, achievement and being placed in a flexible programme of work, study and social "development". We have to remember that many (not all), young people that display this behaviour have never been taught that it is socially unacceptable to behave in this way, they have no understanding of social responsiblities and no normal Family values. I understand the need of some people to get revenge but we have to look at the bigger picture and try to change the tide of "acceptable" violence and anti-social behaviour. That's all I was trying to say - I wasn't excusing what they had done - and I don't pretend to have the answers either!!

Peace

Bernd:16:

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Sadly, they are probably already beyond redemption. They should have known better (and probably did) at their age than to engage in such activity.

Jail was always meant to be punitive. In this case, maybe not punitive enough. Since they liked playing with rocks so much, they should probably be making them one at a time with a tack hammer for the next 5 years, then they might decide they don't want to find themselves in that place again.

Of course, we could just go straight to the firing squad rather than wait for them to actually murder someone after x number of times through the system.....


-Bruce

http://www.comcast.net/news/national...h=itn_wiscgirl