If we are safer now that Saddam is captured...

[bturk667]

then how come the raise to alert status Orange? This is the first time in six months that we are at orange.

[JSE]

Yes, the world is a safer place without Saddam, but Saddam was not the end-all capture to end terrorism. I think he was a big financial contributor and supporter of terrosist but I don't think he was a leader like Osama is. Saddam was just a step in the right direction. The terrosist threat is still there. It's not as strong and organized as it once was, but it's still there. The biggest problem we face is that a small handful of people can cause major problems if they know what they are doing. It's hard to track individuals throughout the world.

JSE

[piece-it pete]

12345characters

[Pat D]

then how come the raise to alert status Orange? This is the first time in six months that we are at orange.

I am glad Saddam was captured, but I surely don't know how it makes us safer in any significant sense. Saddam was not a major threat even before the war, much less after. And the Orange Alert tends to support your thesis. But this is not what many people want to hear.

[Smokey]

One can not uproot terrorism without Palestine/Israel issue being solved. That is the most de stabilizing factor in the middle east and has been for last 50 years. These guys rather blow each other up than live in peace, and I don't think it will be solved without some type of foreign intervention.

[tugmcmartin]

Well, it is indisputable that Hussein was at least pursuing WMD. Given his history of using chem weapons on his own people and invading other countries unprovoked, i'd say that the world is a safer place without him in power than it is with him in power. Now, did we have the authority to go in and remove him from power? That's another question entirely.

As for your question why the orange terror alert despite Saddam being in custody, i'd say that Hussein was never the primary terrorist threat to the US, so catching him wouldn't necessarily guarantee that we'd be safe from terrorism. Like someone else said, there are still terror threats out there (OBL just to name one).

T-

[trollgirl]

A friend sent me an e-mail with a link to a news item that stated that the administration had pushed some nasty provisions of Patriot II thru as riders, and that the Prez has signed them into law on the day that Saddam was "captured". So's no one would notice. Here's the link:

http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.c...d=482778&rfi=6

Well, maybe not a link, but it can be keyed in. It's well worth reading.

Laz

[RGA]

A friend sent me an e-mail with a link to a news item that stated that the administration had pushed some nasty provisions of Patriot II thru as riders, and that the Prez has signed them into law on the day that Saddam was "captured". So's no one would notice. Here's the link:

http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.c...d=482778&rfi=6

Well, maybe not a link, but it can be keyed in. It's well worth reading.

Laz

Every time I read an article like that I always think of that movie "Wag the Dog."

Never trust a politician...does not matter if they are republican or democrat.

same thing happened here in Canada. Jean Chretien, our former PM, has shady little deals with France. Canada stays out of the war on terror in Iraq(Though we are in Afghanistan) because jean's in bed with Chirac who had huge financial interest in Iraq under Hussein.

So we get the left wingers praising our left wing government for not goiing in because it's morally wrong but in fact it was due to greed. After all Canada is the number one Uranium and nuclear reactor builder going...if the US doesn't let em have em...we can't sell em.

Ohh what a tangled mess of lies and deceit. Everyone who bithes and whines about the US, and I do too sometimes over their horrible handling of foreign affairs under Bush, should stop whining. All of the Eurpean first world countries should get together with China and stop importing anything to the US and refuse to buy anything from the US. Shut the US completely out of their markets. "McDonalds, Coke, Nike...You have 1 month to get the hell out." The countries whine and snivel but THEY are the ones who wanted the MONEY these companies generate. Those countries have GREED and screw their own people over and then have the gaul to blame the US for their substandard working conditions etc. The US may be bad for taking advantage, but puhleeze. We live in such a "blame everyone else for my plight" attitude.

America is a rather cold culture not unlike the Ferengi of Star Trek. Buy sell trade and step on everyone to get the top of the financial mountain at any and all costs. Don't like move the hell out out...if that's you bag move the hell in - buy a gun so you go out at night and live in a prison(gated communities) if you wish.

Why must America solve the Palestian/Israel problem. Let the two kill each other. sooner or later they may actually learn something or Israel will finally get pushed so hard they will go in and flatten the place. What Palestine wants they are never going to get. People can gripe and argue over this 1962 or 1947 treaty all they want but Israelies ae not moving out...Palestine's rulers would like all Jews DEAD. We all know it, you cannot appease them by giving up a bit of land now because in five years they'll pull a nutty Hitler and commit genocide.

The Israelies occupy because at this point they have no real choice anymore so all you get is tit for tat. Can't blame the Palestinians for wanting breathing room either. If we could take the religions out of the equation from the right wing nuts under Bush(and if you're this religious then it always impacts on the politics), to the whacko beliefs of Muslims, Mormons etc.

Power hungry religious wars. Land and religion. Any other reason for war...can't think of one off hand.

[piece-it pete]

We actually agree on a few things:)!!

I've GOT to speak up on a couple of issues, however:

It's too early to call Bushs' foreign policy a failure. Time will tell.

No sane country will join a coalition to basically attack the US economicly. In many ways worldwide it would be economic suicide, as the global economy would be in chaos that would take decades to repair (it could conceivably be broken for our age- or longer!). Millions & millions (& millions) of poor (and not-so-poor) would die as a direct result (starvation & anarchy), and you could kiss the western worlds' standard of living goodbye, including (most importantly:) our audio hobby (no money, no market).

And we're not THAT bad!!

I have no good reason to carry a gun, even though the neighborhood I live in is only one step up from the "big city". During the blackout crime was down - it was like a giant block party - even in the city, though they (and few others that I'm aware of) had a curfew. Hardly a picture of violent criminals run amok.

I lived in the "affordable" (lol) section of a large wealthy area here while I worked as a Realtor. There are 2 gated communities there that I know of. I believe they are more common on the coasts. The vast majority of Americans do not live in these and have no desire (and certainly no need) to do so.

You are always welcome to come & visit (I mean this) & you can see for yourself that the US is not the mean, violent place the largely hostile international press makes it out to be. Even if you watch our own news you should remember that the networks love fear - scary things - to boost their own ratings. Most Americans have never been involved in crime. My experience (not inc. me as a juvenile "perp":):kids stole some cassettes out of my unlocked car once.

Land + religion = what they're really after - power! How many times has religion been used as a front? Not to mention people like Hitler or Stalin - totally nonreligious. And I totally support Bush & am a Christian - am I a right wing nut?

Thanks for pointing out that it's not all the USs' fault. It's totally amazing to me how, in all these poorer countries (and many wealthier ones), everyone buys "it's Americas' fault". To me, it shows that they are incapable of democracy, because they can't question their own leaders. Sidenote: this is how the South felt about the North before our Civil War (it's the Norths' fault)(and the North HAD to "flatten the place" to end it - I agree that Israel will probably do so - to the worlds horror).

Pete

[RGA]

And we're not THAT bad!!
Pete

My post was an attempt at pointing out two totally extreme views to make a point. But It never goes over that well because i'm the only one that gets my sarcasm.

The US is of course not as brutal as the press makes out and I have vacationed in the States a lot. People don't realize it if they have never been to the US that each state is almost a totally different country. Indeed, it is a series of little countries that joined together called themselves states and UNITED. Pretty neat actually.

That is why when I went to Disneyland I was shocked that things were so different than Nevada and Oregon and Washingtn State. The Latter two remind me of my Province of BC and if I mocved to the States these would probably the two States I would choose most. California, from what I saw, was largely a dump.

No offense but when I was there the roads were falling apart, the bus system went out of business(lucky the hotel had shuttles to go to the touristy sites). Canada of course has a governemtn run bus system and medical, education etc. So yes it costs us in taxes but the service(other than the odd strike) is assured to always be there. If you're rich you probably don't take the bus, have your kids in private school, and can afford blue cross...so presumably these people would bauk at paying taxes to have the government run these things. The poor on the other hand want these services so that their kids might be able to read, get to their jobs because they need a bus, and hopefully can get a decent doctor from time to time rather than die in the street.

After talking to a number of Americans it is not surprising who votes for what party GENERALLY speaking.

I'm a typical righter wing voter when it comes to finances because i believe people should not live off the government, and generally a left wing voter on social issues because I don't like having religions tell me how I should live my life in my home. I also don't like people telling me society will be ruined if I don't live my life according to some book. Too many different books telling me if I don't follow it I'm going to hell. SO rather than choose, I choose that if their is a God he has a brain and is not stupid enough to reject people based on whether a person has an opinion even a different opinion than HIM.

People say that America has alterior motives and want oil. Well no kidding. The right would have a tough time arguing against that since they now have all the oil contracts. Yes they have not stolen the oil but they have the rights to who can take it...which is the same thing.

Trouble is I can't blame the US, because all the countries who don't have oil need oil for their society to run. America would completely fall apart without oil...they have very little, who has it all...all the nutty religious countries who hate democratic countries(which are not free by the way it's overused silly propaganda term shoved into Americans and Canadians faces).

No we need the oil they have it we take it. Actually America buys it at the price those countries ask. America will apply pressure economic punishments etc but those countries are certainly well paid. If you play ball you're fine. If you sell it to American and then you bomb them look out you get what you deserve. And even Saddam had nothing to do with Sept 11 he won't be missed as the sadist killer that he and his government stand for.

America's economy is an odd one since it's the biggest debt riddled country in the world by a huge margin. They have very little resources that worth anything. Canada has basically kept California having electricity now for the last few years. Canada has all the wood(which the US has applied undue pressure in the from of price protectionism to screw us to preserve their own incompetant tree cutters). Who gets screwed - our workers and your consumers.

Canada also has the reserves of fresh water that America is rapidly losing. America is forced to expand business in other countries like China, and the far east...all those potential customers. Without them the US economy will fold like a cheap tent...arguably the only reason those countries owed all that money don't call for the cheque is that they will meet with some guns.

The computer industry of course fell apart because there was nothing tangible...all those dot coms offer nothing excpet a mysterious word called potential...no one in the far east could really care about these products. And once all the Americans own them you have no buyer anymore. Cars...junk...no one outside of America would really buy the crap cars America puts out which is why Toyota has moved ahead of 2 of them and GM will soon crumble as they make possibly the worst cars of the lot.

I do not believe that America is the world sustaining economic entity. The numbers of people there are not that great ~300 million which is a pittance buyer base. And while they spend the most the only reason Nike sells $200.00 shoes is because people are stupid enough to pay it. The shoe costs $8.00 to make and ship and box. If Nike sold them for $16.00 to the chinese where they're made the company would still thrive but you would have a few less billionaires. The top end of the EXTREME financial heap would dissolve into a bigger middle class not the poles you see now.

There is no need for the ridiculous wealth...for every dollar ahead one person is there MUST be another person that is a dollar behind. Otherwise the dollar has no value. Poor countries MUST be kept poor in order to have affluent countries use them as basically slave labour. We in North America are in the information age while poor countries are basiclaly entering the industrial revolution and do all the dirty work we don't want to do.

California is the prime example. The policy is no illegal immigrants...California turns a blind eye because no actual American would want to work in the fields for crappy slave wages. America sells the American dream which none of these people could or will ever obtain.

America has no choice in the end to do what they do, they need to survive economically...and because they're the big boy on the block they're going to blamed for not helping and blamed for not going in to save a country and then when they do they'll be blamed for butting in to other people's business. They're in a no win situation.

Israel and Palestine are all about religion...otheriwise we could just destroy jerusalem off the face of the earth and they could live together. But damn we can't have Jews around after they killed Christ centries ago so naturally every single Jew born should totally be blamed for that. Considering that Christ would have been a Jew and most certainly would not have had blonde hair and blue eyes like the Christian Aryan nations would like people to believe.

After all this I would rather have Bush in charge than Saddam. And that is what the left doesn't seem to get. Bush may not be the nicest guy in the world etc...but if we're choosing the lesser of two evils I'll choose Bush in a second.

As for military might. you don't need tons of nukes to win a war. Nuclear war is a no win situation. China has enough Nukes to totally anhialate America. They may be destroyed as well of course...but no one will push China around...they try and fail...In fact that plane incident just makes America angry but also look stupid because they know China can't be pushed. They have all the consumers, they set the rules on their terms...and they could give a rats ass if America doesn't like it. That's the trouble with a psuedo Xeonophobic society.

I like Americans I like the country...I think people should spend time there before they criticise and make fun of Americans. People here get mad that Americans think Canadians live in Igloos and have no electricity etc. But many are not ignorant of Canada and it's a more a product of the school system. Again when it's not a priority in the poorer systems/states and when teachers get crappy wages for pay then no wonder. I can teach English in Taiwan for $80k a year. My friend goes to California as a Kindergarten teacher and got $19,000.00. She had to leave because you can't live on $19,000.00.

And they wonder why in so many states they don't actually have teachers with a teaching degree. then you have Bush say he wants accountability. Yeah...You pay some bum off the street who could be a pedophile to teach a class who wants a paycheck and nothing more...accounability puhleeze. Then you hear that the Janitor makes 50k??? Bloody Unions screwing people over too.

My rant has endeth...we're all screwed and I feel sorry for any president or governor even if honest trying to work in a totally morrally bankrupt system of corruption.

[bturk667]

......

[trollgirl]

For the most part, I like what you say in your posts on this thread. You say (I think) that you are a rightist on financial matters and a leftist on social issues - did I get that right? Do you know what that makes you? A Libertarian!

Your comment on Bush vs. Saddam: It's not the lesser of two evils, but it is the evil of two lessers. Think about it...

Your comment on Jesus: There is actually reason to think that He may have been blond/blue. Note that the Bible states (if my 54-year-old memory serves) that Judah was a redhead. Joseph was too, as a British author (name eludes me) demonstrates. The children of Israel were lighter in hair and skin than we think, and even the Egyptians of ancient times were not as dark of hair and skin as we imagine. Do not construe this as a white power boast - we are all fully human, just variations on a theme by YHWH.

Laz

[spacedeckman]

There isn't a dang thing wrong with Bush's foreign policy. The leftist around the world are screaming to give the power back to the UN. The UN that hosed over Iraq for 12 years, siphoning money out of the oil for food gig to line their buddies pockets. The loudest whiners were the ones who IGNORED UN sanctions and sold crap and weapons to Iraq anyway. France, Germany, and Russia. They all had a financial interest in Iraq. They are the real morons. So they invest all of this money into Iraq with Saddam to build up his infrastructure. Saddam alters the deal or kicks them out all together, they get nothing. At least now they may get a real country to trade with who isn't trying to assist others in blowing them up. That leaves Bush and Blair the only two upstanding leaders of major countries. Score: Bush 1, Lesser 0

Terrorists are mean people. They are mean people because they are stupid. They are stupid because they believe that all the wrongs of the world will be corrected if they kill westerners. They were told this by people who are usually better educated and know better, but this is a way for them to get power and money without actually getting dirty or worse, hurt. They find the uneducated, disenchanted, malcontent teens and twentysomethings who are willing to die for them, thinking they are dying for Allah. The scary thing is that Hitler had a more difficult path than the Osamas of the world since he had to deal with a more educated public. But even Hitler never stooped to suicide bombing of civilians. That is so morally repulsive that the West cannot accept it from Westerners. But somehow it's okay with the Lefties if it is a poor Palestinian blowing up a few Jews. Do it in front of an abortion clinic though and it is the end of the world. The only way to deal with these people is to kill them, break up their organizations, isolate the leaders, interrupt their funding, and come down hard on countries and leaders that support terrorism. Score Bush 2, Lesser 0

9/11 can be traced to Clinton not responding in a way that these terrorists can respect. Terrorists think we are soft, and will crumble when faced with tragedy. That was the purpose of 9/11. Think about it. The original Trade Center bombing, the african embassys, the USS Cole, Mogadishu. They were all a test to see how the US would respond. The answer to all of them was basically...nothing. A couple of cruise missiles were launched once. So what. Well, they got braver. But, they weren't paying a whole lot of attention. We 'mercans got us a cowboy in the White House. A "hip shootin" cowboy who got the terrorist loving Taliban out of Afghanistan, tipped Iraq, and scared Ghaddafi excrementless. You remember him, right? Pan Am 103 plus some other stuff. He saw the wrath of the US once, and didn't want to play badly anymore. He sees more benefit in being something of a good guy...time will only tell how good. Score: Bush 3, Lesser 0

Saddam Score: Bush 4, Lesser 0

My first thought after hearing of 9/11...We almost got Gore. We would still be hunkered down in our shelters waiting for the next attack. The purpose of all of this is to keep the West out of the middle east warlord's business. With Gore, they would have succeeded. With Bush, they are failing. With the cooperation of Germany, France, and Russia, this whole terrorist thing would be gone in a matter of a few years. Without their support, it may take decades. They aren't staying out because of any noble purpose, only greed. The UN has become nothing more than a welfare organization that drains the wealthy nations to feed the corrupt. Of the wealthy nations, the US, and Britain are the only countries that really almost take it seriously, everyone else used it like a cheap floozy. (or the cheap floozy it is)

Are we safer? Yes, one step closer. Why the step up? the terrorists know that this is a time of year we are most distracted, but still comfortable thinking of "good will to men". Nothing would make them happier than to mess up what is basically a Western Christian holiday. They are trying. They want to strike when and where they can do the most damage with the least cost. Psychological warfare can be fairly inexpensive and draining to the target. It takes time, but with the liberally biased news in the US, they have allies to hype whatever happens or is threatened. If Clinton would have gone in to Iraq when he threatened and had Euro and UN backing, the world would be different today. If if if. At least Bush is giving us "when"...and them too.

I love the smell of toasted liberals in the morning. It smells like...victory.
Apologies to writer of Apocalypse Now.

[RGA]

Trollgirl.

I am a libertarian I guess. Since most of the time I completely agree with another libertarian by the name of Bill Mahr(SP?). Yes he says it tongue in cheek but most of the time I agree with him. I have also agreed with some of Michael Moore and even Pat Buchanen.

I know an ultra right wing Mormon at my University who takes a lot of flack. Most university are extremely left wing and i like to talk to this fellow because I need to hear the other side of the arguments and not just solid propaganda that anything of a right wing nature is evil. Where we part ways is usually on Abortion, gay marriage(or Union) drugs etc. Three issues i have nothing to do with and therefor my attitude is if it's in your home go for it. The nonsense about ruining the family and society..it's already ruined. There is zero credibility these people offer to suggest that gay marriage will worsen society...show me irrifutable proof that they cannot raise a kid just as well...they can't of course because religion enters their thought process and facts have nothing to do but get in the way.

Spacedeckman:

While i don't necessarily argue with many of these points I get leary of anyone who holds every Republickman to be totally honest perfect model citizens with no alterior motives and every GOOD decision in history of the country was made by a Republican and all the countries ILLS were due to a lousy Democrat.

For instance when under Clinton the economy was great the right say it's a natural ebb and flow and was really started by Bush senior. Then when it's in the tank ohh that was because Clinton screwed up and not W Bush's fault at all. This is perfect timing and a little convenient.

Clinton's mess it was not. Bush Senior SHOULD have went into Iraq the first time he had the chance. But he caved from UN pressure. You won't see me support the UN by the way. Canada and the States bombed I forget who but they did it without UN support...which is why Chretien is a hypocrit now with the less favoured Bush.

I also believe just from a public opinion on a world stage that Gore or Clinton before him would have had an easier time going in. It is total BS to think the Democratic president would not have gone into Afghanistan.

Going into Iraq is a gamble. Most people realize Saddam is evil a real bad guy and should be taken down. And if it was for MORAL reasons alone that's one thing. I know expect to see America take down ALL dictators if it is for MORAL reasons. After all lot od dictators gas and kill their own people and commit genocide. China and North Korea and Iran should be on the list. Iran will take ten or 20 or 50 times as much money to take down than Iraq did and they have real weapons in that country.

Bin Laden has a worth of over 300million dollars. I have never understood this notion that he needed all this money from an external government like Iraq to send a couple of teams over here to learn to fly(not land) a plane...pick a day and time do what they did. There has never been a proven link between those two though there are links with Cheney and Bush and oil companies before they came to office.

I believe Saddam had weapons, I believe he's a bad guy, I am glad to see him gone. It's sets aprecedent that on a wrold stage is not going to help the US in the long term. They are not the only country that can exert political pressure. Any country with a nuclear weapon will never be pushed around by the US. And any country that has one of those nuclear weaponed countries as an ally will never be pushed around. Which is why in the end the US will pay-off North Korea...they have no choice.

The world perceives The United States the same way small business owners view wal-mart. From a consumer point wal-mart is great because you get everything cheap. What you don't see is the how they got it cheap. Innovation is gone, quality gone...and slave labour on the rise. They bully their way in and shut down the competition. It's not sustainable long term.

When you invade another country with no proof and your country is based on certain upholdings of laws...thn people get a little leary on what you're doing. Imposing democracy? Only the western world necessarily views this as superior to start with. If some people got off their asses and went to these countries to REALLY see their culture many would find their lifesyle better. I don't mean Iraq or Afghanistan...but many people who have left Cuba for example go BACK. Yes the Cubans in Miami are still pissed off because they were thrown out and it's still a dictatorship...but even that word is an eyelash away from Canada and the US. You elect your president he has recently enacted some laws that give him pretty much free range. He can have you arrested for pretty much anything any time he wants...and tough luck for you. Canada has the war measures act. Gives the police total search and seizuer when enacted in war or a terrorist crises.

It is simply too simplisitc to lay no blame ever on anything any republican preseident or part member has EVER done in the whole history of the country. Having non well travelled people running a country is a huge mistake for a start, having people who are not all that bright means they can get manipulated by their own party, having only billionaires who have any real shot at presidency is not great. And then when you finally get elected you have a debate over the voting count of chads or whatever was going on which would be ok except that it happens to be in the one state your brother runs. Then it goes to court and the decision is that all the Republican judges vote one way and all the democrat judges vote the other.

Even if it ended up on the up and up ... it LOOKS bad. It LOOKS like a scam.

[spacedeckman]

"anyone who holds every Republickman to be totally honest perfect model citizens with no alterior motives and every GOOD decision in history of the country was made by a Republican and all the countries ILLS were due to a lousy Democrat."

Never said that. Don't think it. Politicians are more suspect than the rest of us. There are bad apples on both sides. I pointed at Democratic failures for trollgirl, who seems to go at this from a liberal slant.

"For instance when under Clinton the economy was great"

The only reason the economy was great was the dot com bubble. All the growth came from a little greed, and a lot of misunderstanding. If it would have started a few months earlier, some would try to pin the success on Bush 1. That too would be wrong. Mickey Mouse could have been president and it would have happened. Clinton had nothing to do with it, nor did Bush 1. This was all due to the explosion of technology (internet) that was supposed to change the way we do business. It didn't. It is an alternate path, not a revolution. Investors gambled on a revolution and lost their backsides. I was not a big fan of Bush 1, he wasn't as weak as Carter, but he was a vacuum after Reagan.

When things went bad, it couldn't possibly be pinned on Bush 2 since he wouldn't take office for nearly another year. But pinning the failure on Clinton isn't right either. The only thing Clinton can be blamed for is for accelerating the rate of the collapse with the Microsoft lawsuit. It would have all happened anyway. (Sorry guy, degree in Economics)

"Clinton's mess it was not. Bush Senior SHOULD have went into Iraq the first time he had the chance"

Didn't I say that somewhere. He should have ignored the UN but caved to international pressure. He was weak, as were the countries of the coalition, many of who were seeing dollar signs. The mess should be blamed on the UN who started with all the shenanigans after the end of the conflict. Clinton inherited the mess upon his election, threatened to go in a number of times using the same reasoning that Bush 2 did. Clinton had a coalition backing him up, but never pulled the trigger to go in, after he said he was going to.

"It is total BS to think the Democratic president would not have gone into Afghanistan"

Now I never said that either. Truman would have gone in, JFK would have gone in, LBJ would have gone in. Carter would not have gone in, Clinton didn't move on any of his opportunities (World Trade '94, African Embassies, USS Cole, etc), and ran away from Mogadishu as fast as he could, Somalia was in a lot of ways much like Afghanistan, ruled by warlords. Thinking Clinton would go in would be a stretch, although he probably could get a coalition together easier than Bush 2. He did for Iraq, as I mentioned earlier, and did nothing with it. Gore lived through the same times with Clinton, I don't see him going in either. Gore was far weaker than Clinton on that front. My comment was Gore wouldn't have gone in. Seems to me he spoke out against it after Bush went in.

"Going into Iraq is a gamble. "

Biggest one we've taken in a long time. But it had to be done. North Korea would be easier if somebody hadn't given them fissionable materials for a power plant that never got turned on. We won't discuss that at this juncture.

"Iran will take ten or 20 or 50 times as much money to take down than Iraq did"

Iran will more than likely implode under it's own weight. Young people outnumber the old in Iran and are not only religious moderates, they are very pro-west. The problem comes from the Wahabists imported from Saudi Arabia. They are the ones who took 444 hostages, not the Iranian people. The religious hierarchy tolerates this because it centralizes power with them...they like that. But they are getting older and weaker, and the 40something and younger crowd are larger and getting more powerful.

"When you invade another country with no proof "

...Where is this coming from?????...The whole Iraq invasion was precipitated by Saddam's refusal to live up to the requirements of the cease fire brokered by the UN. The UN would not make him abide by their rules because of major countries with veto power ignoring the UN while the UN wasn't interested because it was profiting by hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Clinton had the coalition put together to go in with UN okay but didn't do it. Everyone was okay with it then. The 27 times the UN passes different chances for Saddam to comply, he ignored it...probably because he knew the French, Germans, and Russians wouldn't go for it, and the chances of invasion were slim. But that was AFTER they had agreed to go in under Clinton. "No proof" doesn't hold water. The UN had all the proof they needed, they CHOSE not to use it. The press conveniently forgot to mention it, and people who weren't paying attention believed it.

"You elect your president he has recently enacted some laws that give him pretty much free range. He can have you arrested for pretty much anything any time he wants...and tough luck for you. "

But, so far he hasn't. They had a big investigation of all these "homeland security" arrests and detainments. There were a couple of questions, but overall considering the scope of what happened, I didn't consider it a big deal, nor did many others. I'm not too keen on all this stuff either, and the sooner we can get rid of it the better. If the rest of the world would carry it's weight on this whole terrorist thing (many have quit tracking money laundering and transactions, keeping close tabs on known agents, etc). It affects every country in the world, especially the West.

"it LOOKS bad. It LOOKS like a scam"

So, do you remember who Gore showed up with that first night of counting. Daley JR from Chicago. His dad was one of the most crooked vote riggers in the nations history. There are many dead people that vote there, especially dead Democrats, since he is one. His son, the one who showed up with Gore was implicated, but never officially charged. THAT was who Gore showed up with. I just about dropped my teeth. That would be the LAST person I would want to be seen with when there was voting troubles.

I'm not too sure if you really got a good picture of the whole thing up there. The whole Jeb thing is Democrat whining. He didn't do much of anything, and there wasn't much he could have done. The fight was over whether or not Florida should be allowed to violate it's constitution by changing the way votes are counted in an election after the voting was done and the first count was over. Gore did manage to get them not to count a few thousand military ballots (Military is biased pretty heavy Republican). But they should have just thrown the whole vote thing out and sent it to the state legislature. The whole vote thing was just way too contaminated to do any good. It was a joke. The next step was to take it to the state house of representatives for a vote. The Florida house, being majority Republican, would have voted Bush in anyway. There wasn't a single scenario where Gore would have won. He lost every count.

"Bin Laden has a worth of over 300million dollars. I have never understood this notion that he needed all this money from an external government like Iraq"

He really didn't need money from them, he needed money laundering, places to put people, places to train people, and safe passage through and/or hiding if needed. $300 million wouldn't go very far keeping a huge network alive. He would have needed money, but much of that came from the Saudis (the radical ones), US and Eurpean donors who thought they were giving to charities, and who ever else they could get it from. He could have needed technical help, or explosive materials, weapons, Saddam had plenty, and was willing to sell for hard currency. Saddam liked US dollars.

I never understood the "well traveled" thing. What's Bush supposed to do...hob-nob with the crooks that are running France, Germany, Russia, and formerly Canada. I hope your new PM is better. That would really add something wouldn't it. "Mr. President, have you ever considered investing in...golf courses?"

I don't get the Bush is stupid thing either. Another idea spread by the liberal press (Which also infects Canada) who just really don't like him. I've said numerous times that I'm not the biggest Bush fan out there. I do admire him for the fact that he said what he was going to do and did it. Better than that, stuck to it when the Democrats and their friends in Germany, France, and Russia...the people we all knew were in the wrong. Where I'm mad at Bush is on the domestic side where he has become a liberal Democrat as a hobby, and not holding the line on spending, nor keeping this whole "homeland security" thing from bloating the size of the federal government. Republicans aren't always right either, but, come on here. All those countries will benefit from the fight against terror. They want the benefits and the profits while the US and Britain do the dirty work and pick up the tab. That's the primary problem with liberalism...it runs on OPM...Other People's Money.


I kind of liked Mulroney...at least he wasn't a dick.

RGA, I like you, but you gotta look beyond the headlines.

[piece-it pete]

My post was an attempt at pointing out two totally extreme views to make a point. But It never goes over that well because i'm the only one that gets my sarcasm.

The US is of course not as brutal as the press makes out and I have vacationed in the States a lot. People don't realize it if they have never been to the US that each state is almost a totally different country. Indeed, it is a series of little countries that joined together called themselves states and UNITED. Pretty neat actually.

That is why when I went to Disneyland I was shocked that things were so different than Nevada and Oregon and Washingtn State. The Latter two remind me of my Province of BC and if I mocved to the States these would probably the two States I would choose most. California, from what I saw, was largely a dump.

No offense but when I was there the roads were falling apart, the bus system went out of business(lucky the hotel had shuttles to go to the touristy sites). Canada of course has a governemtn run bus system and medical, education etc. So yes it costs us in taxes but the service(other than the odd strike) is assured to always be there. If you're rich you probably don't take the bus, have your kids in private school, and can afford blue cross...so presumably these people would bauk at paying taxes to have the government run these things. The poor on the other hand want these services so that their kids might be able to read, get to their jobs because they need a bus, and hopefully can get a decent doctor from time to time rather than die in the street.

After talking to a number of Americans it is not surprising who votes for what party GENERALLY speaking.

I'm a typical righter wing voter when it comes to finances because i believe people should not live off the government, and generally a left wing voter on social issues because I don't like having religions tell me how I should live my life in my home. I also don't like people telling me society will be ruined if I don't live my life according to some book. Too many different books telling me if I don't follow it I'm going to hell. SO rather than choose, I choose that if their is a God he has a brain and is not stupid enough to reject people based on whether a person has an opinion even a different opinion than HIM.

People say that America has alterior motives and want oil. Well no kidding. The right would have a tough time arguing against that since they now have all the oil contracts. Yes they have not stolen the oil but they have the rights to who can take it...which is the same thing.

Trouble is I can't blame the US, because all the countries who don't have oil need oil for their society to run. America would completely fall apart without oil...they have very little, who has it all...all the nutty religious countries who hate democratic countries(which are not free by the way it's overused silly propaganda term shoved into Americans and Canadians faces).

No we need the oil they have it we take it. Actually America buys it at the price those countries ask. America will apply pressure economic punishments etc but those countries are certainly well paid. If you play ball you're fine. If you sell it to American and then you bomb them look out you get what you deserve. And even Saddam had nothing to do with Sept 11 he won't be missed as the sadist killer that he and his government stand for.

America's economy is an odd one since it's the biggest debt riddled country in the world by a huge margin. They have very little resources that worth anything. Canada has basically kept California having electricity now for the last few years. Canada has all the wood(which the US has applied undue pressure in the from of price protectionism to screw us to preserve their own incompetant tree cutters). Who gets screwed - our workers and your consumers.

Canada also has the reserves of fresh water that America is rapidly losing. America is forced to expand business in other countries like China, and the far east...all those potential customers. Without them the US economy will fold like a cheap tent...arguably the only reason those countries owed all that money don't call for the cheque is that they will meet with some guns.

The computer industry of course fell apart because there was nothing tangible...all those dot coms offer nothing excpet a mysterious word called potential...no one in the far east could really care about these products. And once all the Americans own them you have no buyer anymore. Cars...junk...no one outside of America would really buy the crap cars America puts out which is why Toyota has moved ahead of 2 of them and GM will soon crumble as they make possibly the worst cars of the lot.

I do not believe that America is the world sustaining economic entity. The numbers of people there are not that great ~300 million which is a pittance buyer base. And while they spend the most the only reason Nike sells $200.00 shoes is because people are stupid enough to pay it. The shoe costs $8.00 to make and ship and box. If Nike sold them for $16.00 to the chinese where they're made the company would still thrive but you would have a few less billionaires. The top end of the EXTREME financial heap would dissolve into a bigger middle class not the poles you see now.

There is no need for the ridiculous wealth...for every dollar ahead one person is there MUST be another person that is a dollar behind. Otherwise the dollar has no value. Poor countries MUST be kept poor in order to have affluent countries use them as basically slave labour. We in North America are in the information age while poor countries are basiclaly entering the industrial revolution and do all the dirty work we don't want to do.

California is the prime example. The policy is no illegal immigrants...California turns a blind eye because no actual American would want to work in the fields for crappy slave wages. America sells the American dream which none of these people could or will ever obtain.

America has no choice in the end to do what they do, they need to survive economically...and because they're the big boy on the block they're going to blamed for not helping and blamed for not going in to save a country and then when they do they'll be blamed for butting in to other people's business. They're in a no win situation.

Israel and Palestine are all about religion...otheriwise we could just destroy jerusalem off the face of the earth and they could live together. But damn we can't have Jews around after they killed Christ centries ago so naturally every single Jew born should totally be blamed for that. Considering that Christ would have been a Jew and most certainly would not have had blonde hair and blue eyes like the Christian Aryan nations would like people to believe.

After all this I would rather have Bush in charge than Saddam. And that is what the left doesn't seem to get. Bush may not be the nicest guy in the world etc...but if we're choosing the lesser of two evils I'll choose Bush in a second.

As for military might. you don't need tons of nukes to win a war. Nuclear war is a no win situation. China has enough Nukes to totally anhialate America. They may be destroyed as well of course...but no one will push China around...they try and fail...In fact that plane incident just makes America angry but also look stupid because they know China can't be pushed. They have all the consumers, they set the rules on their terms...and they could give a rats ass if America doesn't like it. That's the trouble with a psuedo Xeonophobic society.

I like Americans I like the country...I think people should spend time there before they criticise and make fun of Americans. People here get mad that Americans think Canadians live in Igloos and have no electricity etc. But many are not ignorant of Canada and it's a more a product of the school system. Again when it's not a priority in the poorer systems/states and when teachers get crappy wages for pay then no wonder. I can teach English in Taiwan for $80k a year. My friend goes to California as a Kindergarten teacher and got $19,000.00. She had to leave because you can't live on $19,000.00.

And they wonder why in so many states they don't actually have teachers with a teaching degree. then you have Bush say he wants accountability. Yeah...You pay some bum off the street who could be a pedophile to teach a class who wants a paycheck and nothing more...accounability puhleeze. Then you hear that the Janitor makes 50k??? Bloody Unions screwing people over too.

My rant has endeth...we're all screwed and I feel sorry for any president or governor even if honest trying to work in a totally morrally bankrupt system of corruption.

RGA,

I understand the sarcasm thing. It's happened to me a couple of times - it's hard when others can't see the "dripping"!

I've never met a foreign national who understood the "E Pluribus Unum" USA thing outside of my own family (Mother, lived here longer than her home country, and my Grandmother, spent a total of a couple years here, from the UK). Incubators of democracy? Perhaps. Certainly more accountable, and we can always "vote with our feet".

It's no secret the Californians don't want public transportation. I'm not pointing fingers, but many arguments against it are often racist (it brings minorities). I don't like it here because it's so expensive. Our system doesn't mention it (I wonder why) but with 1% of Cuyahoga county sales tax receipts (year 2000 - Total budget $225,100,000 divided by rides - 59,166,066 = $3.80/ride actual cost) it is a definite patronage program. $3.80/ride x 2 rides/day x 20 working days/mo = $760/mo our cost - we could buy them all nice new cars - with insurance - & split the difference!!

New Hampshire citizens actually put up their own road signs.

I'm a social conservative, not to force my beliefs on others, but to force them to leave me the heck alone. It seem the left, more often than the right people :) have just GOT to meddle, codifying their beliefs into law. Not to say the right is always correct! But it sounds like we both want the same thing.

If oil isn't a US (and 1st & 2nd world) national interest, what is? I agree it's a weird world - why did the nuts get the oil :)?

The monster trade deficit shows we spend billions more on Chinese/Eastern goods then they spend on ours. How is this propping us up? More like the other way around. They won't call in their notes 'cause they're making money on them, and they know we're good for it.

It's amazing US automakers are still solvent, considering the huge add-on per car due to legacy costs (estimated by some to be north of $1000/unit). Once that's dealt with they will be formidable competitors.

Economy doesn't neccessarily turn on population, but on income & wealth generated (and spent). If we're not the linchpin of the world economy, how could our last increase in our military budget be bigger than the ANNUAL BUDGETS of the next six biggest militaries COMBINED? Our last INCREASE? (Sorry for all the caps. Even growing up here it's hard to believe - or comprehend - how successful our system has been).

BTW, the middle class still exists in the USA. Reports of its' demise are a bit early.

Wealth isn't a zero-sum game. It can be created, new wealth can be added, without it being taken from someone else. How did a dollar gain value to begin with? If I take a board & turn it into a cabinet, it's worth more than it was before, and nobody was repressed or exploited. If I find a service or product that someone else wants, and put them together, I have created additional value with that service or product, again without repression or exploitation. How did we (the US) become wealthy before we dominated world trade (the wealth that was shown during WW1)?

Not to say we've never repressed or exploited. But it is the exception. We've made our own money. And we want other countries to become richer so we can sell them the high tech & services we're good at.

The illegal immagrant thing is becoming rediculous. Political problem: the legal immigrants vote, and want more open borders. Political solution: Give'm drivers' licenses!! Health benifits! Pandering morons!! (But MY party better not lose!:)

But the hard fact is the legal immigrants will get ahead here.

The Israeli situation is difficult, and the anti-semitism in Europe is awful! The Israelis get much support from us partially because as a nominal Christian nation, it is the holy land, and Jews are Gods' chosen people. They are also a staunch friend.

It's funny that the haters call Jews Christ-killers. He was a Jew, and had to die according to plan, and he lived in a Jewish nation. Of course he was killed by Jews!! It doesn't matter what he looked like, but as a Jew he probably wasn't Asian, or African, or American (whatever THAT means:), or Italian. We are in agreement.

China doesn't set the terms, although they play the game well & love to make us look bad. The aforementioned defict means they have more to lose. The main reason we shy away from a trade war there is, simply, we like our cheap stuff. DVD players & TVs go up 100% or more? Kiss that politician goodbye! Also, we have tried hard for decades to bring China into the fraternity of civilized nations (stability in SE asia). It seems to be working at least to a degree. And we need them to be more wealthy so they can afford what we sell!! A billion consumers are worthless to us when the educated make $30.00 a month.

You guys up there don't live in igloos, drinking Molson & eating Canadian bacon, eh? ( and "weaving" your "hemp"?:) Dang public schools lol!! Then I suppose you don't kill bears every day with your bare hands, either. What a let-down.

Kindergarden teachers here are not well paid, but the average teachers' salary in Ohio is more than $44,000/ year, with all that time off probably more per hour than I make, and we're less than the national average.

Agreed about the unions. Here it's the schools & gov't. They're soooo caring & concerned.

I'm talking - & I can't shut up!! Hope you have a great new year.

Pete

[Chris]

Every time I read an article like that I always think of that movie "Wag the Dog."

Never trust a politician...does not matter if they are republican or democrat.

same thing happened here in Canada. Jean Chretien, our former PM, has shady little deals with France. Canada stays out of the war on terror in Iraq(Though we are in Afghanistan) because jean's in bed with Chirac who had huge financial interest in Iraq under Hussein.

So we get the left wingers praising our left wing government for not goiing in because it's morally wrong but in fact it was due to greed. After all Canada is the number one Uranium and nuclear reactor builder going...if the US doesn't let em have em...we can't sell em.

Ohh what a tangled mess of lies and deceit. Everyone who bithes and whines about the US, and I do too sometimes over their horrible handling of foreign affairs under Bush, should stop whining. All of the Eurpean first world countries should get together with China and stop importing anything to the US and refuse to buy anything from the US. Shut the US completely out of their markets. "McDonalds, Coke, Nike...You have 1 month to get the hell out." The countries whine and snivel but THEY are the ones who wanted the MONEY these companies generate. Those countries have GREED and screw their own people over and then have the gaul to blame the US for their substandard working conditions etc. The US may be bad for taking advantage, but puhleeze. We live in such a "blame everyone else for my plight" attitude.

America is a rather cold culture not unlike the Ferengi of Star Trek. Buy sell trade and step on everyone to get the top of the financial mountain at any and all costs. Don't like move the hell out out...if that's you bag move the hell in - buy a gun so you go out at night and live in a prison(gated communities) if you wish.

Why must America solve the Palestian/Israel problem. Let the two kill each other. sooner or later they may actually learn something or Israel will finally get pushed so hard they will go in and flatten the place. What Palestine wants they are never going to get. People can gripe and argue over this 1962 or 1947 treaty all they want but Israelies ae not moving out...Palestine's rulers would like all Jews DEAD. We all know it, you cannot appease them by giving up a bit of land now because in five years they'll pull a nutty Hitler and commit genocide.

The Israelies occupy because at this point they have no real choice anymore so all you get is tit for tat. Can't blame the Palestinians for wanting breathing room either. If we could take the religions out of the equation from the right wing nuts under Bush(and if you're this religious then it always impacts on the politics), to the whacko beliefs of Muslims, Mormons etc.

Power hungry religious wars. Land and religion. Any other reason for war...can't think of one off hand.

Beautiful. A little off the subject, but I like it.

[Chris]

Is America safer? Maybe, maybe not. Do some Americans feel safer? Sure they do - they were told that Saddam was one of the supporters of September 11th - of course his capture would make them feel safer. Some people who didn't believe that propoganda probably don't feel any safer than before.

Truth is, you should be asking this question to Iraqis. It's more relevant to them, as they will probably see direct results more than us. Personally, I don't think it will have much of an effect on the risk of any terror attacks that may take place on US soil. If Saddam was supporting terrorists, there's plenty of other money coming from other anti-US sources (and always will be) to support these attacks. If he was a leader that terror goups looked to for motivation, there will be other leaders and motivation to attack the US. The actions of our government will be reason enough for people to hate us and attack us - whether it's justified or not. There are two sides to every argument - and they will always believe what they're doing is the "right" thing to do - just as we do. We think terrorists are evil for the drastic and inhumane measures they take - terrorists think our government is an evil empire which abuses its power and acts inhumanely itself. Everyone else has their own opinions too.

Are we safer? Who knows - I doubt terrorists are just going to drop their plans or go broke now just because Saddam was captured. Do you feel any safer? That's the real question.