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  1. #1
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Has Vista gotten any better?

    I know that there are a few computer geeks who hang here. I am finally biting the bullet and starting to shop for a laptop. There are some good deals to be had (back-to-school starts waaaay too early!) right now. As far as computers go, I just need basic stuff. I'm not a gamer. A simple laptop that'll get me on-line and can handle Microsoft Office is really all that I need. I have an EMU recording interface that I like to use to record my guitar, but that's about it. I'm leaning towards Toshiba's or Compaq's right now.

    My big question is...has Vista improved any? Should I be looking for a computer with XP or possible even a Mac? I don't mind paying more for the Mac if it will give me less headaches in the long run.

    Any advice/opinions are appreciated.

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    Kex & Wooch will immediatley tell you to buy a Mac, so let's get that out there right now. <== Kex

    Personally, I wouldn't touch Vista until at least one service pack release. XP is VERY stable on my home & work desktop computers, and I maintain 3 Dell laptops at work that are also quite stable. Always have good firewall and anti-virus apps. though.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I know that there are a few computer geeks who hang here. I am finally biting the bullet and starting to shop for a laptop. There are some good deals to be had (back-to-school starts waaaay too early!) right now. As far as computers go, I just need basic stuff. I'm not a gamer. A simple laptop that'll get me on-line and can handle Microsoft Office is really all that I need. I have an EMU recording interface that I like to use to record my guitar, but that's about it. I'm leaning towards Toshiba's or Compaq's right now.

    My big question is...has Vista improved any? Should I be looking for a computer with XP or possible even a Mac? I don't mind paying more for the Mac if it will give me less headaches in the long run.

    Any advice/opinions are appreciated.
    MAC is best... but Vista is fine... I got a new HP laptop about a month ago with Vista (no issues with it so far)....

  4. #4
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I wouldn't recommend a Macbook to FA if Office is all she needs it for - I doubt it's the most effective use of her money. They're awesome and cool, and they work very well comparatively, but they are expensive and won't do word processing any better.

    Vista isn't the worst OS Microsoft's ever made, and most of the early problems with it I think were more 3rd party related than faults with Vista itself, from the average user's perspective. There's more compatible software and drivers now.

    If I was buying a PC, I don't think I would waste money on XP now. I was a beta tester of both XP and Vista and to be honest, I think Vista is further ahead of where XP was at this early stage of its life cycle. XP had problems galore too - NTFS anyone?

    Of course, I hear a new Windows OS (Windows 7?) is scheduled for Q4 2009! Probably has more of what consumers were promised they could expect in Vista.

  5. #5
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Kex & Wooch will immediatley tell you to buy a Mac, so let's get that out there right now. <== Kex

    Personally, I wouldn't touch Vista until at least one service pack release. XP is VERY stable on my home & work desktop computers, and I maintain 3 Dell laptops at work that are also quite stable. Always have good firewall and anti-virus apps. though.
    I'm hardly a computer geek, frankly a bit of a novice, but I routinely use a Vista machine and two XP units. I have a few observations and they're largely in accordance with what Rich contends.

    Vista has security issues galore so I agree with the admonition to purchase Firewalls and Anti-Virus sofware.

    I agree that the variety of updates and the inundation of Vista-friendly software has eased the transition but recognise that you're talking about a different level. True, you're not a gamer and your needs are what would be considered "basic" but it's been my experience that Vista's operations require alot of RAM and processing speed compared to XP. I suspect that you'd run into problems with some low MB back-to-school cheapie.

  6. #6
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    True, you're not a gamer and your needs are what would be considered "basic" but it's been my experience that Vista's operations require alot of RAM and processing speed compared to XP. I suspect that you'd run into problems with some low MB back-to-school cheapie.
    My research today confirms exactly what you are saying. A cheapie BTS special would suffice for now but likely wouldn't last me more than a couple of years. I had a long chat with a Geek Squad guy at Best Buy who appeared pretty knowledgable. He suggested that the cheaper computers are great for students with low budgets who only need the computer for a couple of years while they're in school, but that if I wanted something that would get me through the next five years that I should go higher end with a faster processor and more RAM.

    He also told me that a lot of the initial Vista issues were the result of people trying to use Vista on machines that didn't have the capacity to properly run it (i.e. RAM and processor) and others have been worked out in SP1. He also said that I can disable the little pop-up that shows up every time something new is installed.

  7. #7
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    ... but that if I wanted something that would get me through the next five years that I should go higher end with a faster processor and more RAM.

    He also told me that a lot of the initial Vista issues were the result of people trying to use Vista on machines that didn't have the capacity to properly run it (i.e. RAM and processor) and others have been worked out in SP1. He also said that I can disable the little pop-up that shows up every time something new is installed.
    Ja, it's interesting in an unscrupulous way how manufacturers are still putting out machines with underpowered parts capitalizing, I believe, on the a perception that what was top-of-the-line still is. Tons of cheapies out there that when push comes to shove won't cut the mustard, as it were.

    My own machine is about midline, decent but still faces challenges and certainly would be completely unacceptable for any advanced use. I've tried manipulating the Performance/Appearance ratio on the advanced features but it really has little effect. If ya get more than five or six windows open the system shuts down and forget about using multiple video applications at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I wouldn't recommend a Macbook to FA if Office is all she needs it for - I doubt it's the most effective use of her money. They're awesome and cool, and they work very well comparatively, but they are expensive and won't do word processing any better.

    Vista isn't the worst OS Microsoft's ever made, and most of the early problems with it I think were more 3rd party related than faults with Vista itself, from the average user's perspective. There's more compatible software and drivers now.

    If I was buying a PC, I don't think I would waste money on XP now. I was a beta tester of both XP and Vista and to be honest, I think Vista is further ahead of where XP was at this early stage of its life cycle. XP had problems galore too - NTFS anyone?

    Of course, I hear a new Windows OS (Windows 7?) is scheduled for Q4 2009! Probably has more of what consumers were promised they could expect in Vista.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FA
    ...others have been worked out in SP1...
    Didn't know Vista SP1 had been released?

  9. #9
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Welp...

    I've built 5 rigs over the past few years. If all you're going to do is "surf and turf" then Vista is fine. If you have any legacy programs you HAVE to have (like whatever you do your guitar recording in) contact them developer and make sure it's Vista compatible. You also have to decide if you're goin Vista 32 or 64 bit. The latter requires a LOT more ram and machine to run smoothly.

    I personally have taken Visto OFF of every machine I've ever dealt with. XP's fast, stable and superior for gaming. I plan on building another rig next year or whenever AMD get's it's collective chit together, and when doing that build maybe I'll try Vista again, but certainly not now, not for me.

    Da Worfster

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    FA - My wife's home machine is a rather inexpensive unit - $400 or so... no monitor. We beefed up the RAM to 2 GB and added a very modest video card to help with videos above the built-in video processing, and added an external hard drive (buy add-ons online...way cheaper...) and we still came in under $600. After years of buying the $2000 machines, I'm a big fan of buying the disposable computer every few years now. I believe I'm getting more computing power for less money over time. It's your typical dual-core jobber - it crunches all my speaker building spreadsheet macros (even more intense than the value-at-risk models I use at work) plays music and movies without breaking a sweat.

    Reason why I like this...Back in the mid 90's when I spent $2000 on a Pentium, 166 MHz, I had to get about 4-5 years out of it just to pay it off while I was in school. By 1999 it couldn't do anything productive...I was buying a new computer while still making payments on the old one. Then my next machine was a Mac at around $2500. That had to last me until 2003. I got about 3-4 years out of each before they were just too slow for me. I've spent under $1200 on my last to computers since 2003. I would have had to spend double that back in 2003-2004 that would still run today - and it wouldn't run nearly as fast.

    In about 2-3 years, what costs you $2000 now will likely be out gunned or close to it by what costs you $500 then - so those back-to-school cheapies that last you 2 years are sometimes a more cost-effective route, and can save you a ton of money. And over 5-6 years you'll average a faster machine- especially in the last few years.
    If you're a light, average, music playing, web browsing user it's not always a bad option...Quality wise, a lot of the brands use decent components from the same manufacturers that you'd find in the more expensive machines.

    Just tossing that out there...it works for us quite well. If I was a heavier home user or played a lot of games, it would not be a smart option at all, but for our usuage patterns, it works.

  11. #11
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Kex, not a bad suggestion but you're talking to a woman who just spent about 20 hours and a half dozen phone calls just to set up a USB wireless adapter which, after all that time, still didn't work and ended up being returned to the store. So adding my own RAM and video cards and whatever else is needed is not sounding like a good idea for me. I understand that I may be paying a premium to get a pre-built computer at BB...but if I don't have to do anything to it aside from turn it on...it's money well spent in my mind.

    Worf, thanks for the reminder about software compatibility. That didn't even occur to me. One of the reasons that I want to switch to a laptop in the first place is to not restrict myself to only being able to record in one room of the house. My guitars are in one of the bedrooms and Hubby's drums and keyboards are in the basement. If the recording software doesn't work with Vista it defeats the whole purpose!

    I hear that Dell will "downgrade" their computers to XP. I'll have to look into that.

  12. #12
    Rep points are my LIFE!! Groundbeef's Avatar
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    I bought a laptop from BB a little over 3 years ago.

    It has XP, but is "upgradable" to Vista. I have not done it, nor plan on it.

    My basement computer (tower) was built by myself, and has Vista "ultimate" on it.

    I really don't think either are better/worse than the other.

    The only problem with a prebuilt from anyone/anywhere is that it comes preloaded with all sorts of craptacular software.

    Also, most prebuilts now DONT come with any sort of backup disks. Of course BB will make you one for a small "fee". This can make it difficult to rebuild the system if you have total failure.

    In any event, if you go Vista, make sure you make some minimum requirements.

    1. 2-4 Gig Ram. Nothing less than 2 gig

    2. Dual core processor is nice. Something like Core 2 Duo T7200/7300 Don't go the celeron route. It might be cheaper, but won't process as well.

    3. If you can swing it, get a separte graphics card. You don't need the latest and greatest, but by pulling the graphics load off the processor everything else works better. Most will be called something like GeForce NVidia. Avoid "integrated". That just means "off the processor".

    4. Caveat for screen size. When I bought mine I thought, I needed the largest screen. I opted for the 17". In retrospect, I should have gotten a nice 15", and spent the money saved on processor. 17" is really nice for watching movies, but is REALLY heavy when traveling.

    Good luck.
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  13. #13
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Thanks Beefy. BB will make a recovery disk, remove all the crapware, and do all the set up stuff (in home) for about $100 or $130.

    Here's the Toshiba that I was eyeing. http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/prodde...60&catid=25253. Any comments?

    I'm still considering a Dell for the XP ability. It sounds like it comes with both O/S. You can use XP until you want (or are forced) to upgrage to Vista. But the licence to downgrade to XP is only available with Vista Business or Vista Ultimate (which is an additional $150). And you know that they'll force you to move to Vista eventually. For the record, I don't think that Vista is a bad thing. Lots of people didn't like XP when it first came out either. I just don't want to buy a system until the bugs are fixed. Also, I need to ensure that all of my existing programs are compatible or upgradable (for free).

    I haven't ruled out a Mac yet either.

  14. #14
    Rep points are my LIFE!! Groundbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Thanks Beefy. BB will make a recovery disk, remove all the crapware, and do all the set up stuff (in home) for about $100 or $130.

    Here's the Toshiba that I was eyeing. http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/prodde...60&catid=25253. Any comments?

    .
    The one you have picked is ok.

    Check out this one :http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/prodde...33&catid=25253

    Main differences

    Toshiba
    Advantages
    1. Larger Hard Drives
    2. Lower Price

    Gateway
    1. Although the Hard Drives are smaller, the Gateway runs faster. The Toshbia spins @5400 rpm. The Gateway is @7200 rpm. Since you are using it for music, the faster speed will access larger files quicker, as well as install/remove programs.

    2. The Gateway has a faster graphics card, and more video memory. The Toshiba is 256K ram, and the Gateway is 512Kram for video memory. It will process the graphic demands of Vista more easily.

    3. The Gateway has 4 Gig ram, the Toshiba has 3. In reality, probably won't make a huge difference, but since the price is only $49CN more for the Gateway, I'd go that route.

    As far as having BB make you a disk, save your $130. I was kidding in my original OP about that. It is NOT difficult for you to do it yourself. You just need a couple of blank DVD's and the computer will burn one for you.

    As far as removing crap ware, there are tons of utilities online that you can download to do it.

    Check out these sites to help you do the job for FREE

    http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Crapwa...ndows-Computer
    http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/fil...scription.html

    Good luck.

    I think the Gateway will be a bit better for your money.
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  15. #15
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Thanks Beefy. I did see that one but was staying away from Gateway as they are owned by Acer and I was concerned about quality. Does anyone know anything about Gateway computers?

    But you bring up another question from me. The guy at BB told me that the 4gig ram computers ran 64-bit Vista and that 64-bit would cause me even more incompatibility problems with third party software as it will take time for the rest of the world to catch up. Can anyone "confirm or deny" this?

    See how I did that?

  16. #16
    Rep points are my LIFE!! Groundbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Thanks Beefy. I did see that one but was staying away from Gateway as they are owned by Acer and I was concerned about quality. Does anyone know anything about Gateway computers?

    But you bring up another question from me. The guy at BB told me that the 4gig ram computers ran 64-bit Vista and that 64-bit would cause me even more incompatibility problems with third party software as it will take time for the rest of the world to catch up. Can anyone "confirm or deny" this?

    See how I did that?
    Ohh, good catch. I should have caught that for you.

    I would go with the 32 bit version.

    Here is the skinny. 64bit is more ram intensive. A 64bit version with 4gig ram will work like 32bit on 2 gig ram.

    64bit is the way to go if you are going to be doing some serious heavy lifting and need some serious ram applications. The 64bit version can use up to 8Gig ram, and the 32 bit can only use 4 gig ram.

    However, the 32 bit will only actually "see" 3.5gig max. The rest is used for hardware.

    Go with the 32 bit version. That one has more applications designed for it.

    It's too bad that the graphics card is only 256MB, but it will suffice. Go for the Toshiba.
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  17. #17
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Hey Beefy...for those of us com-pu-ter noobs out there, what are some of the "crapware" programs we can remove safely without mucking things up?

    I have one machine at home that I pretty much have just dedicated to browsing and music. I'm thinkin' a bare-bones existence would be the best thang for my poor, bedraggled processor...

  18. #18
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Thanks Beefy. I did see that one but was staying away from Gateway as they are owned by Acer and I was concerned about quality. Does anyone know anything about Gateway computers?

    But you bring up another question from me. The guy at BB told me that the 4gig ram computers ran 64-bit Vista and that 64-bit would cause me even more incompatibility problems with third party software as it will take time for the rest of the world to catch up. Can anyone "confirm or deny" this?

    See how I did that?
    Clever...

    Yeah, 64-bit incompatibility is a minor pain now...but to be honest I wouldn't buy a 32-bit computer anymore if you plan on using it for the next few years. A lot of future programs are going to be 64-bit only.

    I lived through the Windows 98 debacle where everyone was told 16 bit would be around for years still because every computer in existance was still 16 bit. Learned my lesson.

    What in 32-bit is incompatible right now with the 64 bit stuff? It had better be pretty bad to warrant staying 32 bit IMO.

    FA- the install job/disc scam that BB charges $130 for isn't rocket science at all. Actually if you can download your favorite music player you can remove that crap..and I know you can burn a disc so you should be able to make your own backup/recovery DVD.

    I would bet you could buy that thing and for the cost of a few emails and bit of your time you could remove the programs and do all that yourself.
    You would be far, far better off spending that $130 on upgrades for a better machine.

  19. #19
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Hey Beefy...for those of us com-pu-ter noobs out there, what are some of the "crapware" programs we can remove safely without mucking things up?

    I have one machine at home that I pretty much have just dedicated to browsing and music. I'm thinkin' a bare-bones existence would be the best thang for my poor, bedraggled processor...
    Or put a linux OS on it and do away with 80% of the bloat that is Windows ....

  20. #20
    Rep points are my LIFE!! Groundbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Hey Beefy...for those of us com-pu-ter noobs out there, what are some of the "crapware" programs we can remove safely without mucking things up?

    I have one machine at home that I pretty much have just dedicated to browsing and music. I'm thinkin' a bare-bones existence would be the best thang for my poor, bedraggled processor...
    Well, you can do it a couple of ways.

    1. Go to the "start" button, and then go to the "control panel" section.

    2. Go into the add/remove software. Remove anything you don't use. This can take some time, but will be a great start.

    3. After that go to "start" then "help and support" then "tools", and on the left side select Disk Defragmenter. Read about it, then click on it. DeFrag your drive. This will put all related files by each other. Speeds things up.

    The nuclear option is to just re-install the OS and start virgin clean. Just install stuff you need. Serious pain in the ass, but it really is a last option, not a first option.
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  21. #21
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Clever...

    Yeah, 64-bit incompatibility is a minor pain now...but to be honest I wouldn't buy a 32-bit computer anymore if you plan on using it for the next few years. A lot of future programs are going to be 64-bit only.

    I lived through the Windows 98 debacle where everyone was told 16 bit would be around for years still because every computer in existance was still 16 bit. Learned my lesson.

    What in 32-bit is incompatible right now with the 64 bit stuff? It had better be pretty bad to warrant staying 32 bit IMO.

    FA- the install job/disc scam that BB charges $130 for isn't rocket science at all. Actually if you can download your favorite music player you can remove that crap..and I know you can burn a disc so you should be able to make your own backup/recovery DVD.

    I would bet you could buy that thing and for the cost of a few emails and bit of your time you could remove the programs and do all that yourself.
    You would be far, far better off spending that $130 on upgrades for a better machine.
    So would I be able to run all my current software on the 64-bit system? Maybe I should do a run-down of what I have that's important to me and confirm with the manufacturers that it will still work. I was also looking at this computer, which could double as a blu-ray player (and the casing was a pretty colour) but the sales guy steered me away from the 4gig, 64-bit systems.

    I was wondering about that BB system set-up. It would be nice to get all the crap cleaned off though. I'm always a little afraid that I'm going to delete something important.

  22. #22
    Rep points are my LIFE!! Groundbeef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    So would I be able to run all my current software on the 64-bit system? Maybe I should do a run-down of what I have that's important to me and confirm with the manufacturers that it will still work. I was also looking at this computer, which could double as a blu-ray player (and the casing was a pretty colour) but the sales guy steered me away from the 4gig, 64-bit systems.

    I was wondering about that BB system set-up. It would be nice to get all the crap cleaned off though. I'm always a little afraid that I'm going to delete something important.

    Well, before you go deleting anything, do a system "restore" point. This basically freezes the computer in the current state.

    Then, when you make a change, if it doesn't work, you just "restore" it to the previous state. It's helped me out a couple of times.


    Second, as you are looking for computers around $1100 or so, do you mind me asking how you are going to pay for it?

    If you are going to use a CC, you might buy direct from HP, Dell, or who ever.

    Contact HP, and see what they have in a similar vein.

    The system you picked out looks pretty nice.
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  23. #23
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Well, I wasn't looking at computers in the $1100 range. I started in the $600 range but quickly realized that this was not a good long-term plan. I will be paying by CC. Gotta rack up those airline points. It's the only way that we'll be able to afford a vacation after this laptop expense.

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    My experience on Vista has been limited, but OMG did I grow to hate that deservedly maligned OS during a workshop I was helping to facilitate last week.

    Basically, the participants were all working off of laptop PCs running a custom app built using the .NET framework. 10 of the laptops had XP Pro installed, while the two remaining workstations had Vista. The installation went semi-smoothly with the XP machines, but with the Vista workstations, it was an absolute nightmare.

    Slow as molasses, bizarre user interface changes, crashes, missing files, UAC hell, etc. etc.

    MS seems to have done the same thing with Vista that they did with Office2007, namely make a bunch of arbitrary user interface changes that don't do anything to improve productivity. (Knowing MS, they likely changed the user interface and file formats in order to stymie the growing acceptance of open source Open Office variants.) I can see where MS tried to imitate Mac OS X, but Vista is more of a bizarro kludge where they imitate the look of OS X while doing away with the very simplicity that makes OS X so intuitive.

    My criticism of XP is the myriad of duplicative user interface functions that do the (sort of) same thing. Rather than pare things down and simply them, Vista simply added to the complexity and compounded the problem by making arbitrary changes that require everyone to relearn tasks they've been doing the same way since Windows95.

    The Service Pack for Vista's already out, and while that might make things more stable, the slow performance and klunky interface are pretty much baked in until Windows 7 comes out.

    Meanwhile, my iMac just blistered through its highest benchmark score ever after I updated OS X Leopard to version 10.5.4 (the 4th update to Leopard since it came out in October).

    If you want to buy a computer with XP, you might want to read the linked article below. The upshot is to check with the vendor to see if you can "downgrade" to XP when you buy a Vista machine.

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/14845...c_with_xp.html
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    Sony UBP-X800
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR44 and WVB
    Logitech Harmony 700
    iPhone 5s/iPad 3
    Linksys WES610



    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    6,883
    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I was wondering about that BB system set-up. It would be nice to get all the crap cleaned off though. I'm always a little afraid that I'm going to delete something important.
    Unfortunately, PC makers cram all that crapware onto their machines because they get paid for that desktop real estate. Probably won't hurt to uninstall those apps, but it could screw up some file type associations and leave a lot of junk entries in the registry (which automatically loads up when you start up your machine; leaving these junk entries around isn't inherently harmful, but when enough of them pile up they can noticeably slow your machine down).

    If you're afraid of deleting important files or apps, Time Machine is the most foolproof and intuitive backup program I've ever used. Of course, since it only comes with Mac OS X Leopard, you'll need a Mac in order to use it!
    Wooch's Home Theater 2.0 (Pics)
    Panasonic VIERA TH-C50FD18 50" 1080p
    Paradigm Reference Studio 40, CC, and 20 v.2
    Adire Audio Rava (EQ: Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124)
    Yamaha RX-A1030
    Dual CS5000 (Ortofon OM30 Super)
    Sony UBP-X800
    Sony Playstation 3 (MediaLink OS X Server)
    Sony ES SCD-C2000ES
    JVC HR-S3912U
    Directv HR44 and WVB
    Logitech Harmony 700
    iPhone 5s/iPad 3
    Linksys WES610



    The Neverending DVD/BD Collection

    Subwoofer Setup and Parametric EQ Results *Dead Link*

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