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  1. #1
    Suspended 3-LockBox's Avatar
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    GM wants 22 Billion $$ bailout

    no...not our GM (though I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down)

    I saw this coming...bail one out, they all want one. And why? So they can save all those american jobs? Or so they can make sure that their middle and upper management get their 5 and 6 digit bonuses this year.

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    Like I already said, All General Motors has to do is ditch the union.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    As I posted earlier. That $700 billion could have been used to provide health care to those that need it, but instead we used it to bail out rich corporate executives who have been cheating the public out of their money for years. It just goes to show that corporate America has both the Republicans and Democrat's in their pocket!
    The Gov't is so screwed up, we bail out rich executives and give billions of dollars away in foreign aid and ignore our own people!
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    Alright, lets slow up a second here. I'm no Republican, and I am certainly not a fan of the bailout. HOWEVER, let's stop this nonsense that the $700 Billion is going directly into the pockets of the executives.

    As unpalatable as the bailout is, the threat to both the US, and world economy is very, very real. If these large financial institutions fail, not only will those employed directly will suffer, so goes the rest of the country/world.

    At this point, it is more important to stabilize the markets, rather than simply allow everything to collapse. The time for punishment will come.
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  5. #5
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundbeef
    Alright, lets slow up a second here. I'm no Republican, and I am certainly not a fan of the bailout. HOWEVER, let's stop this nonsense that the $700 Billion is going directly into the pockets of the executives.

    As unpalatable as the bailout is, the threat to both the US, and world economy is very, very real. If these large financial institutions fail, not only will those employed directly will suffer, so goes the rest of the country/world.

    At this point, it is more important to stabilize the markets, rather than simply allow everything to collapse. The time for punishment will come.
    I'm glad you said it Beef, because I was going to. Look, those execs are going to get their paycheques whether there's a bailout or not - they're not going to be any better off because of one. Corporate greed will always exist, so we better get over it and focus on cleaning up the mess we all allowed to happen. The time for pointing fingers is way behind us.

  6. #6
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I'm glad you said it Beef, because I was going to. Look, those execs are going to get their paycheques whether there's a bailout or not - they're not going to be any better off because of one. Corporate greed will always exist, so we better get over it and focus on cleaning up the mess we all allowed to happen. The time for pointing fingers is way behind us.
    Maybe so, but I'd still prefer them to send that $22B to me. Does everyone have my address?
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  7. #7
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Maybe so, but I'd still prefer them to send that $22B to me. Does everyone have my address?
    Aww man, you'd just blow all that on some killer party. And then where would we be? Divorced, hungover, and another trillion bucks in the hole...

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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Aww man, you'd just blow all that on some killer party. And then where would we be? Divorced, hungover, and another trillion bucks in the hole...
    I'd upgrade my system like you wouldn't believe. I've already started picking things out.

    On topic though, (I'm turning over a new leaf) everyone is right about this one. It's disgusting that the very people who helped put us in this mess will be the first to get bailed out. But without big business, you won't have all the medium businesses to support them. With so many people out of work, who will shop at the malls, eat at the delis, or drink at the bars? Everyone suffers when big businesses go down. But the money needs to be accounted for very closely. It can't be used for the rich to get bonuses (sorry Rich). A good chunk needs to go into designing safer, more efficient vehicles for Mr. and Mrs. average Joe. Put them back on track to stay in business on their own.
    This way they can all send 10% of their income to me.
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    I'm not going to point fingers, but whenever some greed driven outfit that I do businees with tries to sell me something I don't need, raises my rates because I decide to downgrade a particular sevice, their interface people are going to get an earfull every single time. When I got disgusted with D*TV's bait-n-switch practice regarding local channel price increases I dumped them. Of course it didn't hurt that FiOS had become available, but I gave the CS rep the same treatment D*TV gave me... pure rudeness. "What goes around comes around".

  10. #10
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    So where does the bail out stop? Why don't we bail out the small business owners who have made poor financial choices or are trying to keep from going bankrupt? I understand about the implications for the world economy. But do the American people have to pay the price. My taxes are going to go up and I will have 2 kids in college costing me $32,000 per/yr and I make too much money for my kids to qualify for grants or loans. Does some one want to help me out! I was going to semi-retire in 5yrs now I have to work another 10-15yrs if my investments dont recover. Now I dont mean to come off as a winer, because I know I am gainfully employed and well off, but there are millions of people who are not!

    If we are going to bail out big business, I'd like to get money back in return when the banks recover from this debacle.

    And if you think things are bad now, wait until Obama tries to institute Universal Health Care. It will cost a trillion dollars to do so. I'm a physician and dating back 15yrs, there is a physician lawyer that lectures at conferences about the government and health care. He is invovled in Washington and states that the government knows there is no solution to the problem without large tax increases for everyone. And even then the quality of health care will go down. It happened in Australia when they went from a private system to a national system and it will happen here. Why do you think the Clinton's failed to reform health care?

    And dont even get me started on Social Security!
    Last edited by blackraven; 11-14-2008 at 09:37 AM.
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    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Instead of a bailout, how about if the government buys $22B worth of their stock? They'll still get the money they need and when GM gets back on their feet the profits could be used to offset taxes.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Instead of a bailout, how about if the government buys $22B worth of their stock? They'll still get the money they need and when GM gets back on their feet the profits could be used to offset taxes.
    That's been part of the bailout debate (whether to buy/loan/give away money)... I think that buying stock is much much much better than just giving away money (normally I'd say a loan is the safest bet, but lending money to bankrupt companies seems... ummm... risky)... I think a combination of buying stock and strict oversight to ensure that GM is not just hemorrhaging money could work out better for everyone in the longterm...

  13. #13
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    It's surprising

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    So where does the bail out stop? Why don't we bail out the small business owners who have made poor financial choices or are trying to keep from going bankrupt? I understand about the implications for the world economy. But do the American people have to pay the price. My taxes are going to go up and I will have 2 kids in college costing me $32,000 per/yr and I make too much money for my kids to qualify for grants or loans. Does some one want to help me out! I was going to semi-retire in 5yrs now I have to work another 10-15yrs if my investments dont recover. Now I dont mean to come off as a winer, because I know I am gainfully employed and well off, but there are millions of people who are not!

    If we are going to bail out big business, I'd like to get money back in return when the banks recover from this debacle.

    And if you think things are bad now, wait until Obama tries to institute Universal Health Care. It will cost a trillion dollars to do so. I'm a physician and dating back 15yrs, there is a physician lawyer that lectures at conferences about the government and health care. He is invovled in Washington and states that the government knows there is no solution to the problem without large tax increases for everyone. And even then the quality of health care will go down. It happened in Australia when they went from a private system to a national system and it will happen here. Why do you think the Clinton's failed to reform health care?

    And dont even get me started on Social Security!
    It never cease to amaze me the number of people who believe that if only their personal taxes were half what they are, the world would be perfect. A very simplistic vision of world perfection I have to say.

    When it comes to health care, I ask you and everyone, Do you believe that everyone ought to have the access to the essentially the same level of medically necessary health care????? If your answer is "no", realizing what you are saying is that the wealthy, healthy, or lucky deserve better health care, then end of discussion: FOAD.

    Otherwise you have to consider how equal basic care is to be delivered. The rational solution is a universal, single-payer insurance system from which nobody is excluded and everyone is subject to the same rules. Such as system is not more expensive and nor does it necesarily deliver inferior health care to the people. Nor is it necessarily "socialized medicine", (not that that is necessarily as so bad -- "socialism": ooo-o-o such a big scare word in the U.S.).

    Health care in Canada where we have a universal, single payer, (but not socialized), system works extremely well contrary to the exaggerations, distortions, and frank lies that are told about by self-interest medical and health industry mouth pieces south of our boarder.

    Health care here in the Great White North is immeasurably better than it was back in the private medicine time before Tommy Douglas instituted universal insurance in Saskatchewan decades ago now. Douglas had to fight the doctors in the province who went on strike, alleging that doctor-patient relationship would be destroyed and other such bullsh!t; (are we talking Hyppocratic oath or a hypocritic oath?): in fact doctor & patient relationships got a lot better once the former didn't have to worry about being paid, and the latter about paying.

    That the the cost of care would necessarily go up and the quality down is basically a lie. The quality of health care compares very favorably in Canada to what it is in the U.S, (of course it's vastly better people who would be uninsurable or couldn't afford it were they living in the US). It is also cheaper here on a per capita basis here then there. Yes, sometimes you have to wait a few months for a non-critical procedure. But Individual workers here don't have to be concerned to keep a lower paying job they hate just to preserve basic health benefits; nor otherwise does a family have to layout $12,000/yr which is the average cost as I hear. And employers aren't stuck with anywhere near the employee benefit costs they have State-side; (yoh! General Motors, listen up).

    D/R, I expect to here from you that you have former Canadian doctor buddies redolant with tales of how horrible the Canadian system is. Believe them if you like, but they are an extremely small and very biased representation of Canadian doctors. It's true enough that doctors in some specialties can earn a lot more in some areas of the States than in Canada. OK, people like to believe that they are ethical, they like to believe they are morally justified. It salves the consciences of you buddies to believe they are down south because the Canadian system bad when in actually it is ordinary self-interest that motivated them. (No, I'm not saying your buds are lying: I'm saying they have very selective memories.)
    Last edited by Feanor; 11-14-2008 at 11:12 AM.

  14. #14
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Oh, boo-fargin-hoo!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3-LockBox
    no...not our GM (though I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down)

    I saw this coming...bail one out, they all want one. And why? So they can save all those american jobs? Or so they can make sure that their middle and upper management get their 5 and 6 digit bonuses this year.
    Maybe I would have been more sympathetic had any one of three Oldsmobile dealers been able to find and fix the problem in my '95 88 with < 70k on it in 2001. As it stands I spent almost $100 at three GM dealers trying to get it fixed to no avail.

    ...and you wonder why I drive a 2004 Hyundai? 49k and no problems!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    It never cease to amaze me the number of people who believe that if only their personal taxes were half what they are, the world would be perfect. A very simplistic vision of world perfection I have to say.
    "Personal taxes" = Federal Income taxes, State Income taxes (in some states), property tax, sales tax. Tax on gas, tax on cigarrettes. Tax tax tax. When I lived in the Liberal northeast, I paid every one of those taxes. Quite a drain on my income, including disposable income. I was surprised when Congress allowed the stimulus package to go out to the people who needed it most, untaxed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    When it comes to health care, I ask you and everyone, Do you believe that everyone ought to have the access to the essentially the same level of medically necessary health care????? If your answer is "no", realizing what you are saying is that the wealthy, healthy, or lucky deserve better health care, then end of discussion: FOAD.
    My answer is yes. Above all else, healthcare administration should NOT be a *for profit* industry. I and my employer pay big money for healthcare, and then the Aetna's, Cigna's and BC/BS's of the country tell me what procedures I have will or will not be paid for, which doctors I see will be covered or not covered WITH MY MONEY!!! And why does the insurance cost so much? Ask the doctors who have to employ a staff just to fill out the paperwork, deal with all the red tape and paperwork the insurance companies stick them with...etc, and pay for malpractice insurance. Oh and how 'bout the pharmaceutical industry and the way they gouge the patient. Funny, if you drive down to Mexico you can get your prescription filled for pennies compared to what's charged here.

    "FOAD" = what? Sounds French.

    [quote=Feanor]Otherwise you have to consider how equal basic care is to be delivered. The rational solution is a universal, single-payer insurance system from which nobody is excluded and everyone is subject to the same rules. Such as system is not more expensive and nor does it necesarily deliver inferior health care to the people. Nor is it necessarily "socialized medicine", (not that that is necessarily as so bad -- "socialism": ooo-o-o such a big scare word in the U.S.).
    Isn't Canada considered a Socialist country? What did the "USSR" stand for again? Oh, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. THeir system didn't work out in the long run did it?

    When I was a youngster growing up in the liberal northeast, I was taught that Socialism was baaaaad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Health care in Canada where we have a universal, single payer, (but not socialized), system works extremely well contrary to the exaggerations, distortions, and frank lies that are told about by self-interest medical and health industry mouth pieces south of our boarder.
    "Weeell, there you go again" Feanor, bad mouthing the greatest country in the world. Shame on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Health care here in the Great White North is immeasurably better than it was back in the private medicine time before Tommy Douglas instituted universal insurance in Saskatchewan decades ago now. Douglas had to fight the doctors in the province who went on strike, alleging that doctor-patient relationship would be destroyed and other such bullsh!t; (are we talking Hyppocratic oath or a hypocritic oath?): in fact doctor & patient relationships got a lot better once the former didn't have to worry about being paid, and the latter about paying.
    Tommy Douglas. A conservative I presume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    That the the cost of care would necessarily go up and the quality down is basically a lie. The quality of health care compares very favorably in Canada to what it is in the U.S, (of course it's vastly better people who would be uninsurable or couldn't afford it were they living in the US). It is also cheaper here on a per capita basis here then there. Yes, sometimes you have to wait a few months for a non-critical procedure. But Individual workers here don't have to be concerned to keep a lower paying job they hate just to preserve basic health benefits; nor otherwise does a family have to layout $12,000/yr which is the average cost as I hear. And employers aren't stuck with anywhere near the employee benefit costs they have State-side; (yoh! General Motors, listen up).
    "vastly better people". Do you mean vastly healthier people or are you just saying Canadians are better than Americans? You MUST be french.

    Define "non-critical". Is someone with a slowly developing brain tumor considered non-critical? So when the tumor becomes the size of a baseball, the person has lost all motor functions, can't feed himself, is the operation now critical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    D/R, I expect to here from you that you have former Canadian doctor buddies redolant with tales of how horrible the Canadian system is. Believe them if you like, but they are an extremely small and very biased representation of Canadian doctors. It's true enough that doctors in some specialties can earn a lot more in some areas of the States than in Canada.
    That's because they're better educated in the states, thus, they're better than their Canadian counterparts, yes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    OK, people like to believe that they are ethical, they like to believe they are morally justified. It salves the consciences of you buddies to believe they are down south because the Canadian system bad when in actually it is ordinary self-interest that motivated them.
    Gosh, you have such a low opinion of Americans don't you? Hey, let's go have a beer Bill Bailey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    ...and you wonder why I drive a 2004 Hyundai? 49k and no problems!
    A Hyundai. Oh geeez.

    (snicker snicker)

  17. #17
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Feanor, we have a few Canadian Doctors that work in our group and while they dont say that the Canadian system is not bad, its not great either. Yes, everyone does have health care but it is rationed to the elderly, denying them potentialy life saving treatment because of their age. Now I'm not in total disagreement with this because we try and save too many nursing home patients with dementia and no quality of life because family just cant let go. Here in the US we spend hundreds of millions of dollars on these patients because legally we cant say no. This will change with universal health care. People in this country will not be happy!

    You seem to have the opinion that I dont want health care for every one. Your mistaken. Do you think that I went into medicine for the money? If you do your wrong. I help people and see all comers regardless of their ability to pay. And here in the US, there is free health care. Its called the Emergency Dept. We collect 29%, in the ER. We cannot turn anyone away and we do not skimp on tests and we dont look to see if patients have insurance, its illegal!!!!!!!!!
    We dont deny patient's care in any way. (try running a business where you collect only 29% of what you bill and you will see how it drives up prices). (oh, by the way, Mediacal in california reimburses doctors 10cents on the dollar, so if you do a $2K sugery you get reimbursed $200). The US government knows this and thats why there is no hurry to fix the problem. In addition here in the Twin Cities there are a few dozen free family clinics and dental clinics.

    And just because the system works in Canada doesnt mean its going to be done right here. (its done poorly in Australia) You assume that the US gov't will get it right and thats a big assumption. Plus the US has something like 10x's the population of Canada.

    For health care to become affordable here there needs to be many changes such as medical liability (many specialties have to pay $100,00 or more for malpractice insurance each year), product liability, limitation of resources such as not every hospital having an MRI scanner, heart cath lab etc. There needs to be regulation with Drug companies. (Why is it that drugs cost way less in Canada then here?).

    And don't criticize me about my concern over taxes. College cost between $10-50,000 a year here and Medical school $20-50,000 per year (here at the University of Minnesota a state funded school, medical school costs $40K per year or $160K for 4 years. So Doctors are finishing their training in their early to mid 30's, $300,000 in debt with high interest loans. Try buying a house a new car and getting married being $300,000 in debt and then having to pay thousands a year in malpractice insurance. One of my partners is 46 and he still owes $200K and has little money put away for retirement. We also have to contend with something called the Alternative Minimum tax which now costs me several thousand a year. I used to get back about $8k and now I have to pay in about that much. So yes I am worried about more taxes which will probably reach about 50% for me at some point.

    Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.
    Last edited by blackraven; 11-14-2008 at 01:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    ...Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.
    Tou-freakin'-che D/R

  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I rejoin

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    ...
    My answer is yes. Above all else, healthcare administration should NOT be a *for profit* industry. I and my employer pay big money for healthcare, and then the Aetna's, Cigna's and BC/BS's of the country tell me what procedures I have will or will not be paid for, which doctors I see will be covered or not covered WITH MY MONEY!!! And why does the insurance cost so much? Ask the doctors who have to employ a staff just to fill out the paperwork, deal with all the red tape and paperwork the insurance companies stick them with...etc, and pay for malpractice insurance. Oh and how 'bout the pharmaceutical industry and the way they gouge the patient. Funny, if you drive down to Mexico you can get your prescription filled for pennies compared to what's charged here...
    You go, Rich, now yer talking! The estimate I hear was that health care administation in Canada is 1/5th of what it is the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    ...
    Isn't Canada considered a Socialist country? ...
    Uhhm ... no it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    ...
    "vastly better people". Do you mean vastly healthier people ...
    Indeed, I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    ...
    That's because they're better educated in the states, thus, they're better than their Canadian counterparts, yes?...
    But in general they're not better educated, so no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    ...
    Hey, let's go have a beer Bill Bailey!
    Your best idea today.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Oh and one last point. As my taxes go up and income down, I will spend less, keep my cars longer and buy cheaper cars, take less frequent vacations and eat out alot less often. In general, I will cut back on my spending as will alot of people. Lets see how the US economy holds up when millions of people are doing the same. Its already happening here and businesses are hurting and people are losing jobs.

    My daughter in College just changed her major to nursing for fear of not being able to get a job when she graduates because of the economy. At least in Nursing she will always have job opportunities.
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  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Just to address a couple of points

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    Feanor, we have a few Canadian Doctors that work in our group and while they dont say that the Canadian system is not bad, its not great either. Yes, everyone does have health care but it is rationed to the elderly, denying them potentialy life saving treatment because of their age. ....
    It's perfectly true that there is rationing of health care up here and the example you mention is plausible. But do you suppose rationing doesn't happen in the US? That is what HMOs are all about. Rationing in Canada involves are real attempt to consider fairness and the greatest good for the greatest number. But on account of the for-profit nature of HMOs, far too often its about protecting the corporation's bottom line.

    I laugh too when I hear the claim that Americans have more choice in health care. Nice choice: get the medical procedure you need and loose your home and life savings, or die.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    ...
    And don't criticize me about my concern over taxes. College cost between $10-50,000 a year here and Medical school $20-50,000 per year (here at the University of Minnesota a state funded school, medical school costs $40K per year or $160K for 4 years. So Doctors are finishing their training in their early to mid 30's, $300,000 in debt with high interest loans. Try buying a house a new car and getting married being $300,000 in debt and then having to pay thousands a year in malpractice insurance. One of my partners is 46 and he still owes $200K and has little money put away for retirement. . ...
    Well, boo-hoo. I grant that a medical education is likely a bit cheaper in Canada although still plenty expensive. I guess that would be a good thing, except I supposed Candian doctors probably earn less. I not well informed about physician remuneration but I did recently hear that a starting pathologists' pay in Ontario is C$350,000 a year: doesn't sound too hard to take.

    Me, I'm 63 and still working for full time for about $30k/yr (-- my nominal salary is much higher but this is what it works out to because I have to forego the pension I'd otherwise receive). I work dispite triple bypass surgery, (which cost me all of $800 by the way), painful arthritis, and failing eyesite, in order that my kids can finish their education. My daugher isn't in medical school, but her dental hygenist program did cost me $12,000 for the fall semester.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    ...
    Sorry to rant and rave, but when outsiders dont know the full extent of the problems in the US and its medical system it makes me angry.
    Hey, no prob! Glad to provide a shoulder to cry on.

  22. #22
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Hey, it works for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    A Hyundai. Oh geeez.

    (snicker snicker)
    Even when I was on the prowl I never needed a fancy car to get the girls.

    So, hows that Trans Am workin' out for ya?

    Now that I'm an old married fart, reliability and mileage are even more important. And this car. my friend, delivers in spades.

  23. #23
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    That's got to sting a little.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Even when I was on the prowl I never needed a fancy car to get the girls.
    I didn't either. I just threw my ____ out the window. Worked great!

    Quote Originally Posted by marky
    So, hows that Trans Am workin' out for ya?
    Pretty good. 80K miles, 8 years old, no car payments for the past nearly three years and still hauls ass. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by marky
    Now that I'm an old married fart, reliability and mileage are even more important. And this car. my friend, delivers in spades.
    Bet ya don't drive on the interstates too much do ya?

  25. #25
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I didn't either. I just threw my ____ out the window. Worked great!
    Your what? Left arm?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    IPretty good. 80K miles, 8 years old, no car payments for the past nearly three years and still hauls ass. Thanks!
    Good. I haven't made a payment since I walked out of the dealership and if donkeys are common companions there, I don't know if I really want to move to Texas. My stepson hauls his hunting dogs in a pickup. That seems a bit more practical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    IBet ya don't drive on the interstates too much do ya?
    Actually, I do. We have buds in Pennsy, Delaware and upstate NY. I cruise around 75 - 80, conditions permitting, and get a little over 30 mpg then. ...and no problems with the buggy, either.

    Trans Ams and the like were popular in the disco days with the Tony Manetti wannabes.

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