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  1. #1
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    It's the Economy....

    I am surprised at y'all....Is anyone vaguely cognizant of the fact that the sheep has his hit our economic fan? After floating blissfully around in our little bubble, the market has taken a major dive. Wall Street giants have taken a major topple, and we are facting a nearly TRILLION dollar bail out. Who pays? You and me, if Washington gets their wish. Congress is reportedly scrambling like mad to make sure that this doesn't happen, but we are in a serious fix and we aren't in Kansas anymore, Toto....

    More to come as details and thoughts are sorted out.....
    "The great tragedy of science--the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."--T. Huxley

  2. #2
    nightflier
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    Not to be too contrarian about this, but there are always those who bet against the market when the need is there. For example, this past few weeks, when the market was down, oil and gold were up - one could have done quite well timing DIG & DUG. Now I'm not suggesting that there is anything moral about this as people are loosing jobs and houses all over, but my point is that no matter how bad things get, there is always someone somewhere making a buck off of it. This downturn is nothing different: money is changing hands and that by itself is already something for all those people making money off of people trading (there's a whole industry that does this).

    I bet if you would had bought, oh I dunno, $10K of Visa towards the end of the day today, you probably could have sold it tomorrow at a profit. If Visa bumps up by a couple of points tomorrow morning, those 150 shares would net you $300 overnight. Now imagine if you had the cash to buy 1500 or 15000 shares, that's a sizable profit for 24 hours' worth of "work". And the people we're talking about have that kind of coin. Yes, there is risk, but with Visa, the worst that could happen is that you might have to hold onto it for a little longer. The estimates are still at about $80 a share by January, so with 15000 shares, you'd be looking at a $225K x-mas bonus. Now that would by a handsome set of speakers, no?

    Anyhow, when it comes to greed, nothing surprises me.

  3. #3
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    The icing on the proverbial cake is that most of your Congressmen refuse to even discuss any language limiting bonuses for the CEOs of the companies that got us in this position.

    In past millennia it's this kind of shit that has proceeded heads on a stake.

  4. #4
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    In past millennia it's this kind of shit that has proceeded heads on a stake.
    Now, now...government is far more to blame than the CEO's that just did their job reacting to the environment that was created for them. Let's rewind to post Sept 11 and the tech bubble bursting - financial institutions were heavily encouraged to lend money to keep the economy working - hell, we lowered interest rates to effectively zero to make it happen. Then we sat by and watched as all sorts of creative investment schemes designed to package off the risk of sub prime debt to investors was created.

    Long story short, we borrowed from tomorrow to pay for today. Now it's tomorrow and our credit is bad. This is all just deferred pain. The CEO's didn't help, we all sorta pretended like this wouldn't happen...

  5. #5
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    I heard something along the lines of +$1 billion in Golden Parachutte cash going to the top executives of the corporations being bailed out by the US taxpayer. I don't think we should be held responsible for that.

  6. #6
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Who pays these pipers?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    The icing on the proverbial cake is that most of your Congressmen refuse to even discuss any language limiting bonuses for the CEOs of the companies that got us in this position.

    ...
    Are we to suppose Congress(wo)men go to Washington for the salary? No, they expect to stroke people who will pay them off one way or another.

    Take the fine public servant and all-round POS, Dick Cheney. He got to be CEO of Halibuton, not by working his way up through corporate ranks, but by knowing and doubtless making various promises to the right people during his preceding political tenures. Nowadays according to the Wikipedia article his income is around $8M a year. And of course he, or at the very least his Haliburton buddies, are making vast sums as war profiteers in Iraq. (Now listen up, John, this war has got to last a hundred years, got that!?!)
    Last edited by Feanor; 09-23-2008 at 08:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    The nuts and bolts of this proposed bailout are scary for almost all Americans and IMO are potentially worse than letting these investment banks that hold trashy loans as assets fail.

    The execution (not the goal or desired result) of the bailout is the government's purchase of bad assets on the books of financial institutions including commercial banks, investment banks that don't hold regular deposits and some insurance companies. The "bad assets" as far as I can tell are non-performing loans. These non-performing loans may be (and most likely are) bundled or "securitized" with your or my mortgage, auto loan, credit card debt, etc. Will the government "buy" up these "secutities" or will it sort out the good from the bad within each security? Will your mortgage that's securitized with some bad loans be "bought" by the government? When the gov't decides to foreclose to raise revenue, will it foreclose on the whole bundle?

    Here's where it gets really scary. Over the past 15 to 20 years a form of immunity has arisen in the private sector that springs from federal regulations rather than from Congress. An Act that addresses a particular subject will say that as long as the private entity subject to the act follows the procedures of or gains approval from the agency regulating the private entity, then no state's law is applicable to that private entity. Take for example the FDA which approves medical devices and drugs. Under the Preemption Doctrine so long as the device or drug maker has received approval from the FDA, no state law claim by an individual for an injury caused by the product may be brought.

    Here's some language from the actual proposed bailout Act (law to be passed by Congress and signed by the President):

    "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

    Again, what if your loan that you're paying diligently on is securitized with bad loans and bought by the government? What will be your remedies, if any, upon wrongful foreclosure? Will the unchallengable decisions of the Secretary (obviously an appointed/political position) extend beyond those bad assets bought by the governement? In other words, will the Secretary under this Act be empowered to make decisions affecting the entire financial market including your loans, mortgages, credit card debt not taken over by the government?

    My questions are WTF IS GOING ON and WHY ARE WE STANDING FOR THIS?

  8. #8
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Good questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dean_martin
    The nuts and bolts of this proposed bailout are scary for almost all Americans and IMO are potentially worse than letting these investment banks that hold trashy loans as assets fail.

    The execution (not the goal or desired result) of the bailout is the government's purchase of bad assets on the books of financial institutions including commercial banks, investment banks that don't hold regular deposits and some insurance companies. The "bad assets" as far as I can tell are non-performing loans. These non-performing loans may be (and most likely are) bundled or "securitized" with your or my mortgage, auto loan, credit card debt, etc. Will the government "buy" up these "secutities" or will it sort out the good from the bad within each security? Will your mortgage that's securitized with some bad loans be "bought" by the government? When the gov't decides to foreclose to raise revenue, will it foreclose on the whole bundle?
    ...

    Here's some language from the actual proposed bailout Act (law to be passed by Congress and signed by the President):

    "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."

    Again, what if your loan that you're paying diligently on is securitized with bad loans and bought by the government? What will be your remedies, if any, upon wrongful foreclosure? Will the unchallengable decisions of the Secretary (obviously an appointed/political position) extend beyond those bad assets bought by the governement? In other words, will the Secretary under this Act be empowered to make decisions affecting the entire financial market including your loans, mortgages, credit card debt not taken over by the government?

    My questions are WTF IS GOING ON and WHY ARE WE STANDING FOR THIS?
    Damned good ones, Dean,

    First let me say as a Canadian, neither I nor my goverment will get the tiniest say in what happens though doubtless(ly) we will feel plenty of fallout.

    It seems to me that for sub-prime mortgages it would be nice to believe that those whose fault it was will bear most of the pain, viz.
    • Property owners who gave mortgages they ought have know they couldn't pay;
    • The who initially underwrote the mortgages and packaged them for resale;
    • Those executives and investment managers who bought the packeged mortages without due diligence.
    Will the last will be the direct and maybe only beneficiaries of the bail-out?? That would be wrong although we might hope the shareholders they represent will get some relief. What about the property owners? If the Federal actors forclose and sell their properties, they will absorb disproportionate punishment, IMO. And what about those already foreclosed?

    Of the three groups it seems very clear that the middle group is the most to blame: the crooks and frauds who obtained the mortgages with total disregard for the inevidable effect on the mortgators, and sold them as you basic bills-of-goods to the finanical institutions. Yet these people have already walked with huge profit. Will the Fed actors go after them to recoupe the cash or will they get off scot-free?

  9. #9
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Welp....

    I've done my part. 2 years left on the car, 7 on the house and a grand total of $960 of revolving credit card debt. I'm working to get out of debt as fast and as hard as I can and I'm in the process of selling off unused assetts (bass guitars I don't need) even as we speak. I'll start keeping some money in the house now and load up on surplus MRE's. Not panicing just gettin' ready.

    Da Worfster

  10. #10
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    MRE's? Can you send some my way?

    No wait. Never mind. I'll just wait for the next Economic Stimulus care package to come my way.

  11. #11
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    MREs

    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    I've done my part. 2 years left on the car, 7 on the house and a grand total of $960 of revolving credit card debt. I'm working to get out of debt as fast and as hard as I can and I'm in the process of selling off unused assetts (bass guitars I don't need) even as we speak. I'll start keeping some money in the house now and load up on surplus MRE's. Not panicing just gettin' ready.

    Da Worfster
    Good plan, Worfster.

    But I hope your paying less than $86.98 per dozen. This from Wikipedia ...

    ... The recent growth of MREs listed on eBay (2005) has resulted in a government investigation of whether they were intended for Hurricane Katrina victims, and the news media nickname "Meals Ready for eBay." Some cases are being sold from Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and other Gulf states affected by Katrina. The internal cost of a 12 pack case of MREs is $86.98 (approx. $7.25 a meal) to the government, much higher than what is actually paid to vendors. ...
    Maybe you could just eat your neighbours when the time comes.

  12. #12
    Can a crooner get a gig? dean_martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    I've done my part. 2 years left on the car, 7 on the house and a grand total of $960 of revolving credit card debt. I'm working to get out of debt as fast and as hard as I can and I'm in the process of selling off unused assetts (bass guitars I don't need) even as we speak. I'll start keeping some money in the house now and load up on surplus MRE's. Not panicing just gettin' ready.

    Da Worfster
    we started our family debt reduction plan this year. we're off to a good start, but we have a long ways to go.

    what's buggin' me about all of this is not just the billions of dollars, but the law that will be passed that authorizes the money. right now, it looks more like a power grab. the more debt you have, the more likely you'll be subject to the new authoritiy.

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