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  1. #51
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    A little watch trivia; years ago the quality of a watch was judged by it's number of jewels. Some questionable watchmakers would put in jewels where none were needed. Today a stem wind watch requires about 17 jewels and an automatic needs about 21-25. The moving rotor requires more jewels for the swinging motion that winds the watch. As more complications are added the jewel number increases. Watches with moon phases, date, power reserve, tourbillon, minute repeater would all add to the number of jewels.
    LOL. Nice fact - once you use a single criteria to determine quality, persons are bound to abuse it.

  2. #52
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    This is my current watch, cheap but nice IMO:



    This watch shape is called Tonneau which means barrel shape. This has always been a popular shape. Back in the days of mechanical watches the movements were designed to fit the case. Today with watches being fairly large a round movement can fit inside without problem. Quartz movements can be made fairly small and dropped into any shape of case.
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  3. #53
    RGA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    I'm not really into metal bands, but this Seiko is interesting:



    I'm sure it's worth the price based on quality, but it would be a shame to spend $850 on a Seiko, and have everyone assume you're wearing a $100 watch.
    I suppose you're right - but then why not buy a fake Rolex for $30 - it looks identical - I know because I walked into a Rolex dealer in Shanghai and walked out to a guy who had the exact same looking watch (I mean it was uncanny) for $30 (which I paid $15 too much for I am sure). If it's just about perception then buy a fake.

    But here's the MORE troubling thing Ajani - you spend the $10,000 on a Rolex or Omega and everyone who sees it will just ASSUME it's a fake anyway - LOL.

    Granted the fake Rolex I had began to rust and the band broke after 3 months. However there is a website that seems to offer high quality (so they say) replica versions for $300-$500. I don't know how good they are but they may be high quality watches (different movement) but the same "look" as the high end brands. Only people super into watches would likely know the difference. Like the fakes didn't have the Rolex crown on the knob - or the second hand wasn't a smooth rotation.

  4. #54
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Here is a truly inventive line of Swiss watches.

    Reverso - Complication - Jaeger-LeCoultre
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone into watches-q3002401-jlc-reverso.jpg  
    Last edited by JohnMichael; 03-13-2012 at 08:23 PM.
    JohnMichael
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  5. #55
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post

    Granted the fake Rolex I had began to rust and the band broke after 3 months. However there is a website that seems to offer high quality (so they say) replica versions for $300-$500. I don't know how good they are but they may be high quality watches (different movement) but the same "look" as the high end brands. Only people super into watches would likely know the difference. Like the fakes didn't have the Rolex crown on the knob - or the second hand wasn't a smooth rotation.


    Must be the same place I buy my knock off Audio Note equipment. Who wants the real thing if you can buy a knock off and trick the inexperienced.
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  6. #56
    RGA
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    John

    I guess you missed the point.

    My question was "why buy a watch?'

    1) to tell the time. People who don't care about watches would be happy with a TImex since it "takes a lickin and keeps on tickin" Maybe the G-Shock would be their model up.

    2) as a jewelry - get the looker using gold/silver and fine details - telling the time is secondary

    3) a Respect for the quality of craftmanship and engineering to get an accurate reliable manual watch - (ie buying a watch designed and built in house. These buyers from what I can tell are the equivalent of the "Car Guys" who restore classic excellent designed cars and are in it for the love of the engineering.

    4) to show off how much money they spent.

    #2 and #3 go together in the sense that a car guy may have respect for the engineering but they still choose the cars they admire with the tipping factor towards the one they like the looks of best.

    #2 and #4 go together with the people who like jewelry and may also like to show off - telling time is secondary.


    What I have not accounted for is the "pride of ownership" factor. Ajani noted that he would not like to spend $850 on a Seiko if most people would assume it to be a $100 watch.

    I certainly get that - the perceived value of brands is pervasive in society and not limited to cars, watches, stereo equipment clothes, perfume etc.

    The fact is when you buy something that is dear you want to feel good about the item - you want to believe your getting excellent value, that it's well made, and yes even providing a sense of "prestige" or pride of ownership.

    So if a Breitling or Movado makes you feel that over a Seiko for the same money - I am not here to say anything about it.

    Audio has the same problems that X brand is better than Y for prestige reasoning when in reality the Y is much better but doesn't have the name brand or marketing appeal - or looks worse. Audio Equipment is unique because it is not a "showy" product. Unlike Cars and watches that you take with you when you are out in public for ALL TO SEE - Audio sits like a lump in your house.

    No one makes fake audio equipment brands in general - but they certainly do for watches because #4 is pervasive - people want to give of the impression they're more than they are via what they possess. And yes RGA bought a fake Rolex - but I would always go on about the fact that it was a fake. I get the impression most people want to give off the impression they spent $15,000 on a watch.

    You sound like a #3 guy to me - you care about the design/engineering and you want #2 involved in there.

    Still I have not been able to see why one movement is superior to another - more common less common but there doesn't seem to be any winner. Seiko has done a lot more inventing on a lot more technologies than some very expensive brands who have done zippo. So I don't see how a #3 could have any respect for those companies.

    I have respect for Audio Note because they hand build almost everything they sell, and they design almost everything they make as well. You pay the big money but you get something.

    The VAST VAST majority of high end brands buy off the shelf parts and slap them together and stick a label on the front and hype the hell out of it. You get the same critical parts in $15,000 SS amps that you see in $800 amps.

    I guess the thing with watches is it's tough to see what it is you are paying the extra money for - is it the movement - the link I posted to Ajani has the Seiko gaining 3 seconds per week (automatic/manual) which is highly impressive. A $150 Seiko 5 divers watch - with a movement found in many of their watches. So a #3 should be highly impressed by the quality of said movement.

    So now it comes down to #2 and #4. Unless I'm missing something that I am not seeing in watch discussions. I mean I have this weird impression this comes down to race a little bit - maybe on a subconscious level - but German/Swiss versus Japanese - I dunno but I certainly don't see a real "substantial" link to quality. Indeed people will fork the money over for Mercedes over a Lexus for the same money where Lexus destroys Mercedes in almost every way yet they won't buy a Japanese car - they need "German Engineering". Yeah a car that breaks down 5 times as often so much for German engineering.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Must be the same place I buy my knock off Audio Note equipment. Who wants the real thing if you can buy a knock off and trick the inexperienced.
    The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.

    Personally, I would rather buy a $100 watch every 10 years or as needed. I don't have a need to play "Look at me, my watch costs as much as your car".

    I have 3 watches, a 2-tone Seiko with a white face and numbers, an REI Field Watch, and a 2-tone Citizen eco which I wear all the time and it has been flawless now for 4 years. None of them cost more than $150 so the rest of the dough is in the Audio Note Fund.

  8. #58
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.

    Personally, I would rather buy a $100 watch every 10 years or as needed. I don't have a need to play "Look at me, my watch costs as much as your car".

    I have 3 watches, a 2-tone Seiko with a white face and numbers, an REI Field Watch, and a 2-tone Citizen eco which I wear all the time and it has been flawless now for 4 years. None of them cost more than $150 so the rest of the dough is in the Audio Note Fund.

    Some people wear watches and some people love watches. Some people need excellent audio equipment to enjoy their music and others get their groove on from a Bose wave radio. If you truly like watches and admire the skills needed to make a fine mechanical movement a knock off will not make you happy no matter how many people you fool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    Some people wear watches and some people love watches. Some people need excellent audio equipment to enjoy their music and others get their groove on from a Bose wave radio. If you truly like watches and admire the skills needed to make a fine mechanical movement a knock off will not make you happy no matter how many people you fool.
    OK, so what is the real markup on these babies?

    Does it really cost $20k to make a watch? Or rather a few hundred, then add a diamond chip and shazam, now it's worth $20k.

    How much difference is there really in the movements? I'm not saying that fine watchmaking is not a skill but there is only so much you can do with a watch movement.

  10. #60
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    If you want a "value" watch maybe Seiko is the way to go. Like I said, I have two I bought for myself that are close to 25 years old and still working fine, (both quartz with dead batteries at the moment). I have another wind-up that belong to my mother that she wore occasionally for 40 years that still works. Also, Seikos have been great-looking watches in their price ranges.

    Admiration of craftsmanship closely combined with pride of ownership are big factors for "fanciers" of watchs as for fanciers of a lot of other things. For example, guns: I've know a quite few gun collectors. Most are not would-be Rambos but rather fit the preceding definition of "fanciers".

    And when it comes to hi-fi, I have no doubt that a high proportion of owners of very pricey systems fit the definition of "fanciers" as above. Of course they want good sound but they also want handsome-looking, well-made, technically SOTA equipment in addition.

  11. #61
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    OK, so what is the real markup on these babies?

    Does it really cost $20k to make a watch? Or rather a few hundred, then add a diamond chip and shazam, now it's worth $20k.

    How much difference is there really in the movements? I'm not saying that fine watchmaking is not a skill but there is only so much you can do with a watch movement.

    The same could be said about speakers, automobiles, or any other specialist product. My ten year old Toyota Echo takes me from A to B so why would I spend money on a BMW? In the realm of mechanical watches there is much going on with development in new materials to make a longer lasting and more accurate timepiece. Like a speaker the drivers need an enclosure as with movements they need to be protected. When a movement is designed that is state of the art it is usually placed in a case of precious metal. That type of movement has parts that are made within microns of spec. The parts are then hand assembled followed by calibrating the movement in multiple positions. Once the movement is ready it is fitted to it's case. So for your $20,000 you have extremely tight tolerance parts assembled into a state of the art movement, lots of skilled labor, and a case of gold and either a leather strap of some exotic leather or a gold bracelet.
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  12. #62
    RGA
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    Well my reply was lost bugger

    Anyway - I think I understand why there is added prestige in the swiss watches - many are hand made - the Seikos pumped out by robots. There is a precision and unique design aspect. If you're into watches then you value these things. JohnMichael has been cordial and probably taking some heat when he should not have to.

    I see the value in the expensive watches to a degree and there is a whole package that needs to be accounted for (design, looks, precision, artistry). While the Seiko's arguably look a little more utilitarian. Watches are a form of jewelry after all and that aspect is highly personalized.

    I don't think the car analogy works as well because cars are clearly measurably better or worse.

    Audio equipment is murkier since it doesn't play well to my scientific ideals of better/worse because unfortunately too often I come across the mediocre measurements that sound more like the real instruments and therefore more accurate to the ear while on paper it is not so. I get the groaning sensation every time I see graphs and the the one that's worse I have to say "yeah but it sounds better" - uggh.

    Watches I am not seeing what constitutes as clearly better - but like I said there is a much clearer jewelry aspect to the thing - and where fashion is concerned some bets are off.

    Anyway - I ended up buying the Seiko today - I signed up to Citi-bank Hong Kong in October and received a thank you of about $130 US in grocery coupons. That was nice. So what the heck - almost a free watch. Since I move around so much I like the world clock bezel and knowing what time it is anywhere anytime - a bit of a gimmick but I would use it from time to time. I almost opted for the black steel brown bezel watch but for 1/3 more money I just could not do it. The black metal is a coating so if it scratches the silver would come through - so that didn't help.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone into watches-srp127k.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    The same could be said about speakers, automobiles, or any other specialist product. My ten year old Toyota Echo takes me from A to B so why would I spend money on a BMW? In the realm of mechanical watches there is much going on with development in new materials to make a longer lasting and more accurate timepiece. Like a speaker the drivers need an enclosure as with movements they need to be protected. When a movement is designed that is state of the art it is usually placed in a case of precious metal. That type of movement has parts that are made within microns of spec. The parts are then hand assembled followed by calibrating the movement in multiple positions. Once the movement is ready it is fitted to it's case. So for your $20,000 you have extremely tight tolerance parts assembled into a state of the art movement, lots of skilled labor, and a case of gold and either a leather strap of some exotic leather or a gold bracelet.
    Right, and 60 seconds is still 60 seconds.

    At least with speakers, you can clearly hear the difference between a pair costing $100 and a pair costing $5k, with a watch you can't tell a difference in the fact that over 30 some years one will be off by a millisecond and the other off by 5 milliseconds.

    What about resale? Can yo buy a $20k watch today and sell it for $22k next year?

    Feanor, with gun collecting, whatever gun you buy today holds it's value or more. The un-shot collector editions go up drastically.

    Harleys are similar, you can get what you aid for it a year later unlike cars that drop in value the second you drive it off the lot.

  14. #64
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.
    You know, I thought that until I started shopping for watches for Hubby. I had only a $500 budget, but some jewellers were showing me watches in the 4 digit range...don't ask me why, I was clear on my budget.

    They all did the same basic job...told the time. But if you watched the second hand, you could see the difference in movement on some watches. Some of the watches had a definate ticking movement. Others just flowed around the face smoothly. There were also options. Waterproof depth. Scratch resistance. Things like moon phases and second time zones, if that floats your boat. There is a series of Tissot watches that have touch technology built in (they were out of my price range, so I didn't spend much time learning about them, but I'm intrigued). Hubby doesn't like heavy watches, so I discovered that there are watches made out of titanium, but you won't find one for $100.

    Buying a watch is like buying a car, as JohnMichael pointed out. They all tell the time. But do you want to chug along listening to a noisy engine and have to manually roll down your window? Or do you want a smooth, quiet ride with some bells and whistles?

    Personally, if I never have to listen to something tick again, that would make me very happy. Few things get on my nerves more than constant ticking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    OK, so what is the real markup on these babies?
    I have a friend who owns an ad agency and does work for Bulova. He can get watches from them for half price. So I have to figure that the markup, on Bulova at least, is around 100%. I don't think that they would sell to him at a loss.

    I also discovered, while shopping for hubby, that prices were negotiable. None of the jewellers that I talked to about price would have charged me the ticketed price. At the high end of savings, I was offered 25% off. The watch we ended up buying was 13% off (equivalent to the tax).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    You know, I thought that until I started shopping for watches for Hubby. I had only a $500 budget, but some jewellers were showing me watches in the 4 digit range...don't ask me why, I was clear on my budget.

    They all did the same basic job...told the time. But if you watched the second hand, you could see the difference in movement on some watches. Some of the watches had a definate ticking movement. Others just flowed around the face smoothly. There were also options. Waterproof depth. Scratch resistance. Things like moon phases and second time zones, if that floats your boat. There is a series of Tissot watches that have touch technology built in (they were out of my price range, so I didn't spend much time learning about them, but I'm intrigued). Hubby doesn't like heavy watches, so I discovered that there are watches made out of titanium, but you won't find one for $100.

    Buying a watch is like buying a car, as JohnMichael pointed out. They all tell the time. But do you want to chug along listening to a noisy engine and have to manually roll down your window? Or do you want a smooth, quiet ride with some bells and whistles?

    Personally, if I never have to listen to something tick again, that would make me very happy. Few things get on my nerves more than constant ticking.

    I have a friend who owns an ad agency and does work for Bulova. He can get watches from them for half price. So I have to figure that the markup, on Bulova at least, is around 100%. I don't think that they would sell to him at a loss.
    If you can hear the second hand on your watch ticking, you should be writing reviews for Stereophile cause you got Golden Ears.

    As long as the watch tells me what time it is, I don't care how the second hand moves.

  16. #66
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Handsome watch RGA. That is a classic style that you should enjoy for many years. No more changing batteries. Mechanical watches run slightly fast at first. You will know the watch needs cleaned and lubed when it begins to lose time. Of course it will be years before that happens. The more you wear your watch the more accurate it will be since this will keep the mainspring wound. I only take my watch off to shower.

    If your watch has an exhibition back it can be interesting to look at the movement. You can see the swing of the rotor that winds the watch and the balance wheel and hairspring oscillate that regulates the time. Young friends who only know about quartz watches are surprised that mechanical watches are still being made. You know the same ones who do not know turntables are still being sold.

    Enjoy!
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  17. #67
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    If you can hear the second hand on your watch ticking, you should be writing reviews for Stereophile cause you got Golden Ears.
    LOL! I can't hear my watches unless I forget to take it off before I go to bed. Then if my hand ends up under, or near, my pillow I realize very quickly that my watch is still on.

    However, we used to have a couple of clocks in house that drove me mad until I convinced my husband that they needed to go in the basement!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    As long as the watch tells me what time it is, I don't care how the second hand moves.
    And that's totally cool. Be happy with your $10 watch and let those of us who appreciate the finer watches enjoy our purchases. I was just trying to explain to you that there are, in fact, differences and what they are aside from the things that John's been talking about.

  18. #68
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    I can't see RGA's photo of his new watch here. Grrrrrr. I'll have to wait until I get home. Congrats on your new watch RGA. Now you have no excuses if you're late for something!

  19. #69
    RGA
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    ForeverAutumn

    It's the one reviewed in this link Some Pictures of the Seiko 5 World Time – SRP127K « Yeoman's Watch Review

    here is the back
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Anyone into watches-srp127k_back.jpg  

  20. #70
    RGA
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    John Michael

    I doubt it will be the only one I buy - I live in Hong Kong the watch capital of the world - it's absolutely nutty here.

    Here is my blog of living in Hong Kong so far Richard in Hong Kong

    There is no way around it - the marketing finally got to me - it's relentless. The Seiko is a big heavy brute watch which I like - but I would like a leather strap watch - very much like the Blue Omega you posted - I am nowhere near in the $3k range but if I see something that looks somewhat in the ballpark from a reputable company I would go for it.

    I have read positive things about Orient. So perhaps I'll look around - gee maybe get one Swiss - one Japan - and one China. Future watch reviewer - hahaha - I'm in the right place.

    I will be going tomorrow to some stereo shops with a fellow Dagogo reviewer (Lawrence Lock) who is far more knowledgeable about classical music than I. He's going to show me around. He recently interviewed Karita Mattila - who? Yeah I don't know opera at all. Interview with Finnish soprano Karita Mattila - The Columns - Dagogo

    I really have to stay away from these expensive hobbies because umm I seriously don't have the money for them. Audio is somewhat sane - it can be - but watch collecting would ruin me. I know if I started I'd be buying them up beyond my means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    LOL! I can't hear my watches unless I forget to take it off before I go to bed. Then if my hand ends up under, or near, my pillow I realize very quickly that my watch is still on.

    However, we used to have a couple of clocks in house that drove me mad until I convinced my husband that they needed to go in the basement!



    And that's totally cool. Be happy with your $10 watch and let those of us who appreciate the finer watches enjoy our purchases. I was just trying to explain to you that there are, in fact, differences and what they are aside from the things that John's been talking about.
    Hey, you all can enjoy whatever you like, I just question the motive and thinking that goes with a purchase of something that doesn't do it better than the cheaper one. I question the same with cars too. Oh yeah, one gets to the next red light faster than the other. And as I pointed out earlier, the same person that complains that a $4200 Amp is crazy, would go out and buy a $10k watch without a thought.

    Bells and whistles are great but again can be had for much less.

    I think you mis-read, my 3 watches cost between $100 and $150, not $10. I am not stopping you from enjoying an extravagant look at me purchase. Just chiming in on a public message board. If you would like to exclude those that don't agree with you 100%, take the thread Private.....oh wait, can't do that here...take it to PM.

  22. #72
    RGA
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    Hyfi

    I think the thing is the jewelry factor - Watches are jewelry - audio equipment isn't.

    For instance the Omega at $3k is a stunning watch - so are a number of the very expensive models here - does it tell time better than a cheapish watch? No.

    But it's the same reason people buy a necklace - what is the point? Style - Fashion - and people are either into such things or they're not. I see no problem with that - and watches are a cut above just jewelry at least since there is function and design effort in them - it's not just melted gold and artificially propped up in value stones like diamonds - which are only "rare" because the giant diamond companies make them artificially rare.

    Jewelry doesn't entirely get away from the audio industry either - Peter has been railing against most stuff on the market for designing a look first and then trying to get quality sound out of a look that has no hope of producing great sound. Or component makers that use 1/2 inch thick plates to weigh an amp down to make it seem solid because buyers think heavy is better. When you look inside and see that the actual parts that influence sound are cheap affairs decked out in fancy cases and sculpted looks.

  23. #73
    Charm Thai™
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    I do not have any interest in watches nor do I like wearing them but you'd better believe I have 3 nice ones on tap at all times. Women judge men by: first their shoes and second their watch.

    Can't tell you how many times I've been on dates and had the broad ask me what kind of watch I was wearing and where I purchased it. Then on the second date I've caught them peering at my wrist to see if I was wearing the same watch.

  24. #74
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHills44060 View Post
    Women judge men by: first their shoes and second their watch.

    Can't tell you how many times I've been on dates and had the broad ask me what kind of watch I was wearing and where I purchased it. Then on the second date I've caught them peering at my wrist to see if I was wearing the same watch.
    Wow, you need to find some less shallow women to date.

    I have never judged a man on how expensive his watch, shoes, or car is. It's a good thing too, because if I did I would have never given my husband the time of day (pardon the pun ). And he's the best thing that's ever happened to me.

    Of course, you might want to stop calling women "broads".

  25. #75
    Charm Thai™
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    It is probably a gauge as to how much money you are likely to spend frivolously on them.
    I think you hit the nail on the head there.

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