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  1. #1
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    Any Gun fanciers here?

    I just purchased my first hand gun, the U.S. Navy version of the Beretta M9 9mm. The problem is that I can't find any 9mm ammo for it any where. Every one is buying it up because they think Obama is going to outlaw hand guns.

    The gun is mainly for occasional target shooting at the range.
    I recently bought a Mossberg 930 semi-auto shotgun for trapp shooting as well.
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  2. #2
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    I enjoy shooting. I don't hunt but like to target shoot. One of my favorites is my Colt 357 Trooper. Very cool piece with long barrel and full ventilated rib.

    I also have a rifle and enjoy the thrill of emptying a 30 round clip.

    I haven't picked up any ammo in a while, I might ought to check into that. If 9mm is scarce it will be a real pain to find 762's my rifle needs.

  3. #3
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I saw 762 at Gander Mountain. 9mm, .38/380 is in short supply. You cant even find it online without a few week wait.

    My son wanted me to buy a 357 Mag with an 8" vented barrel. Its too heavy and 357 ammo is so expensive. Even .38 which can be used in it is expensive. I want to buy a nice .22 target pistol.

    I'm not into hunting either, although Minnesota is a hunters paradise.
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  4. #4
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    I have a concealed weapons permit and carry most of the time in my state. When at home "Tiny Tim" is on guard. He is a S&W model 442 airweight (15 oz) hammerless, 5 shot, 38 special with plus P rounds. I like the light weight as a priority. I also prefer a revolver for instinctive use and safety for pocket or holster carry.

    My older heavier handguns were just not practical for carry. I might look at the new Ruger polymer lightweight 38 LCR hammerless that is about 13.5 oz for my wife at home. She is interested in learning how to use a handgun and this model apparently does not have the violent kick that the S&W airweight does. We used to settle our differences with Santoku knives, but this will bring it to a whole new level.

    I don't know if there is any shortage of ammo in my area. My son works at Cabella's and I'll have to check with him.

    I had my fill of bigger firepower in the Army and Nam so its just for protection for me (or in case we have to invade Canada.....don't let that out, it is top secret at this point, eh).

    RR6

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  5. #5
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    I have a concealed weapons permit and carry most of the time in my state...

    ...its just for protection for me (or in case we have to invade Canada.....don't let that out, it is top secret at this point, eh).
    As I was reading the part about you carrying a gun most of the time, I was thinking that I would post, "forgive my Canadian ignorance, but why do you carry a gun?".

    But now that I understand that you have thoughts of invading Canada, I have to ask..."forgive my Canadian ignorance, but why do you carry a gun?".

    You could probably invade us just by waving one of those Santoku knives around.

  6. #6
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    I've never fired a gun, but I'd like to. I just want to know how it feels in case I'm ever in a situation where I need to use one. You know, some ******* attacks me, I kick him in the cahones and grab his gun off him...it could happen!

    I used to have a personal trainer who was a cop and worked on the SWAT team. I always wanted to ask him if he would take me to the range and teach me to shoot. But I never asked and then the gym shut down and I lost track of him.

  7. #7
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    I can understand light being a concern for carrying around. I've been told that a heavier weight in the larger caliber hand guns helps with the kick. I've not shot a 9mm do they have a recoil?

    My dad had a Ruger .22 single action pistol and it was one of the most accurate hand guns I've seen.

  8. #8
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    FA, I'm so glad you asked. You have probably already labeled me as one of those gun toting NRA type Yanks. Actually even thought I was in the Military Police, I was one of the restrained types. My units never used too much force, only that which was needed to inforce the laws.

    I never was a hunter or even owned a gun until about 15 years ago when I was seriously threatened and harrassed by a paranoid co-worker. I am a very responsible and instinctively non-violent person. However, I would act without any hesitation to save my life or the life of others if threatened.

    As I write this I am on vacation in Japan at my mother-in-law's condo. One can walk the streets of this large metropolitan city at midnight with no fear. I see young teenage girls riding their bikes home late at night (I already tried to catch some of them but they peddle too fast). There are some guns here but they are mostly for hunting. The only handguns are owned by the Japanese Mafia, who only shoot each other. The feeing of being safe here is a nice change.

    Unfortunately the US is a whole different ballgame. I feel safer going to the mall and any other public place in the Seattle area with my gun. There are shootings in the Seattle metro area almost every day. I am not paranoid in any way but do know in the remote chance that I would be attacked by someone with a gun I might be able to stop, with my experience under fire, a tragic situation that happens all too often in America. I am for extremely strong weapons controls, safety classes and checks before anyone is cleared to buy a gun. The old "law abiding citizen" mantra is NRA doubletalk. However, a handgun ban in the US will never happen. Our gun culture is too ingrained in our country.

    Don't worry about us invading Canada, it will strickly be non-violent. It will be anounced that anyone showing up at their local hockey rink will receive a free six-pack of Molson's Mountain Winter Ale and a free puck. The Canucks will flock to the ice rinks and will be peacefully subdued. All French Canadians will immediately be deported to France.

    RR6

  9. #9
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    The recoil (kick) depends on the individual gun. However, generally the lighter the gun weight and stronger the load the heavier the kick. Some grips are better than others at softening the recoil. Padded gloves are available for practice. Proper holding techniques help. The polymer gun I mentioned has a definitely lighter kick for that light of a gun.

    In the heat of the moment when you would be forced to fire your gun most people would not even be aware of the kick. The noise can be more of a problem which can be temporarily or permanently deafening in an enclosed area such as a car or small room.

    I don't think most people would consider the 9mm recoil as too strong.

    We had an unfortunate accident in the Seattle area several years ago. A guy took his girlfriend to an indoor range. He let her shoot his 44 magnum revolver. I would have loaded only one round at a time, he wasn't as smart. She fired the gun. The recoil with her still holding onto the gun forced the gun over her shoulder until it was pointing behind her. Her natural reaction was to pull forward on the gun to return it to the forward pointing position. In doing this she accidentally pulled the trigger again, firing a second round. He was standing behind her and was struck and killed.

    A little common sense around guns goes a long way.
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 04-30-2009 at 02:35 AM.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    My guns are used strictly for sport. Trapp shooting with a 12g shotgun is a blast (no pun intended) and cheaper than golf. The 9mm pistol is also for sport and will be rarely used. Ammo is $13.95 a box of 50. Eventually I will buy a .22 revolver or target pistol where ammo is $3 a box of 50.

    Here in Minnesota, many people are concealing and carrying since they past the law a few yrs ago. With crime going up and people bein mugged or beat up by the gang bangers all the time now, it may not be such a bad idea to carry depending upon where you live in the city.
    Many of the Chicago and LA gangs have moved out here. In fact the neighborhood around the hospital I work at has gone from being a quiet middle class area to a welfare haven for refuges from Chicago (better welfare benefits here in Minnesota).

    The police in the area all carry extra guns, ammo and knives on them do to the increase in crime and gang activity.

    I was talking to a police friend and he stated that if you used the gun in self defense and killed some one, all you have to state to the police is that I feared for my life.

    If I ever decided that I needed a conceal and carry gun (chances are slim to none for me), it would probably be the Walther PPK 380. Small and lightweight with a big round.
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  11. #11
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    FA, I'm so glad you asked. You have probably already labeled me as one of those gun toting NRA type Yanks.
    I don't think that at all. But I am always astounded at how casual Americans are about the guns that they carry. Its very different here in Canada. Although gang activity is increasing in major cities and I can see the day coming when Canadians start to think that same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Don't worry about us invading Canada, it will strickly be non-violent. It will be anounced that anyone showing up at their local hockey rink will receive a free six-pack of Molson's Mountain Winter Ale and a free puck. The Canucks will flock to the ice rinks and will be peacefully subdued. All French Canadians will immediately be deported to France.
    RR6
    The thing is...that just might work.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    I just got back from a trip to the US. I was predominantly staying in Boulder, Colorado with some friends of my folks. This man just had a 'trophy' room addition to his house made, where he has displayed a massive stuffed moose head and a Buffalo head (among other animals). He is quite the hunter and graciously showed me a few of his weapons, something I am not accustomed to as I grew up in France and firearms there are not readily available. He has quite an arsenal, including a rifle that is some 200 years old!
    He also owns a 'Dirty Harry' .44 Magnum, which I unfortunately didn't have the pleasure of handling.
    Last edited by audio amateur; 04-29-2009 at 10:50 AM.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular audio amateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6

    A little common sense around guns goes a long way.
    Especially around fire arms!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven
    Trapp shooting with a 12g shotgun is a blast (no pun intended) and cheaper than golf.
    If you've ever seen me golf you would also know that shooting is a lot more accurate than golf!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I don't think that at all. But I am always astounded at how casual Americans are about the guns that they carry.
    I am not the kind that talks about guns all day long. I only commented because BR started this thread.

    Actually, I most enjoy talking about:

    Audio/Home Theater
    Photography
    Snow Skiing
    Music
    Computers
    Astrophysics
    Sex

    (not necessarily in that order)

    RR6

    PS: Actually Canucks are more violent than Americans. They just exhibit their violence on the ice.

  16. #16
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    What do you click on to change what is said by your name, like RR6 has "audio/HT 1.3". I don't need it to say Mr Peabody is a nice guy 4 or 5 times. I might start believeing it.

    I wonder ehat Japan does different. I would hate to see it be the Wild West again.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    What do you click on to change what is said by your name...............I wonder ehat Japan does different. I would hate to see it be the Wild West again.
    User CP/Edit Profile/Optional Information/Custom User Title

    Japanese culture is very interesting. On the one hand their military behavior during WW2 was horribly attrocious towards their enemies, both military and civilian. Part of this is to due to their military mindset that one never surrenders. If one does then you drop to the level of an animal and are treated accordingly. The Japanese have a feeling of superiority which manifests itself subtly as a prejudice against other asians. I have seen a number of clubs/lounges that have a very clear sign at the entrance that states in English, "Japanese Only." How long do you think that would last in the States? Some of that is due to roudy behavior by American military personnel. However, they love English words/phrases and most things American.

    On the other hand their domestic culture is one of strict disicpline and obedience of laws that is ingrained from birth. It is one extremely safe country. Yes, there are occassional murders which are usually committed with knives by completely insane people. Unfortunately the current youth seem to be more influenced by western culture that they see in movies and music videos.

    This interesting dichotomy seems to blend seemlessly into their modern culture.

    Arigato gozaimasu.
    LL6

  18. #18
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    I've always admired the Japanese traditional view or upholding of honor and try to follow that. I had to take one of those psycological surveys along with all the employees at work one time and when we got to see our results mine was thrown out because they didn't think I was truthful. It's pretty bad when they expect some one to steal and lie to the point when you say you don't they won't believe you.

  19. #19
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Have a great time in Japan, RR6-san! This is a great opportunity for you to stock up on a few San-mai's for your collection. Beautiful knives, fer sure, and last forever!

  20. #20
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    Thanks Auricauricle. Mostly resting and relaxing while my wife helps out at her mom and brother's mochi-ten (rice cake shop). Yeah, the Japanese are artists in many ways and especially when it come to the art of cutlery! Many of their woman are beautiful works of art too (my neck is sore).

    I take the short walk to downtown Sendai every day. My favorite stop is at Yodobashi Camera (one of 20 stores in Japan) which is a complete electronics and small appliance superstore. I mainly just look because prices are actually cheaper on Japanese items in the US.

    I usually only see several other foreigners each day. With silver hair and at 6-4 I stand out like a sore thumb. Of course they are most polite and never stare.

    Always enjoy my stays here.

    RR6

  21. #21
    nightflier
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    I hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that if everyday civilians had handguns that they would be any safer. Study after study has shown that only by using a gun on a regular basis with ongoing training can someone make the right calls in a dangerous situation. Police officers do this and so do military personnel, but your typical civilian will end up either freezing up, shooting him/herself, or shooting the wrong person. And that's if they don't get shot by police who can't tell who they are in that hectic situation. Even retired police officers quickly find out that they are no longer as sure of themselves as when they were on the force. Don't believe me? Sign up for a training camps this summer and see how well you scored (and I'm not just talking about target practice).

    Fact is, most of us don't have the training nor do we keep up with it to be able to safely handle a gun in a dangerous situation. That we can still buy guns, even without a background check and from a completely unregulated industry, is a tragedy. This is the reason why there is a firearm death in this country every 15 minutes (that's 90 per day, or 32,850 per year), according to 1997 statistics, the last time the stats where compiled. Compare those figures with Japan, China, England, Russia, Iran, even most war zones. I have been lucky enough to survive most of the hairy situations I've been put in, but I can tell you that I made the conscious decision after I left to not own any firearms. I now also teach my children that there are much more efficient solutions to difficult situations, the least of which is to just talk yourself out of them.

    Considering FA's dark alley scenario, or the ubiquitous drunk in a bar scene, anyone of us would be much better off with a short nighstick, a solid flashlight, or a tonfa. Heck, if you really want to scare people, just pull out a pretty harmless-looking Shinai, even a rubber-coated one and no one will dare enter its range. Not good enough? Well then bring a shoto to the party - I guarantee no one will come near you. And if any gun-toting moron does try to pull out a firearm from some concealed pocket, I'm pretty sure you'll have time for a couple of stabs before he can even aim it - story over. I'm always reminded of a time when there was going to be a big rumble at my highschool - it lasted about 30 seconds. That's when one of the nitwits flicked out a pruning saw (the kind with the jagged edges). That cleared the field faster than if the cops had appeared. Considering most situations will be close-proximity, a handgun (concealed or not) is absolutely useless and will probably get you injured or killed. If you don't believe me, check out the statistics, they're all over the web. By the way, anyone who's ever taken a self-defense class will tell you the first thing you learn is to turn a gun back around against your assailant.

    Now as far as guns for hunting go, I'm pretty amazed at what kind of sniper rifles, automatic machine guns, and combat assault rifles get lumped into that category (uzis for squirrel-hunting, anyone?). Fact is most rifles purchased today aren't used for hunting at all so you have to ask yourself why people own them. My take on that is, if you're going to hunt something, you better bring it home and eat it. Otherwise I'll be wondering if you're the kind of fella who will end up picking off little children from the local bell tower because you lost your job, wife, life savings or whatever. Second amendment? That's for militias with leadership in case someone invades (when's the last time that happened?). If the NRA actually knew what it said, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on (that is, if they didn't already shoot themselves in that leg by accident in the first place).

  22. #22
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    ...Mmhmm, mkay...

    There are usually several sides in a story.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  23. #23
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    By the way, anyone who's ever taken a self-defense class will tell you the first thing you learn is to turn a gun back around against your assailant.
    I've taken several self-defence courses. One was taught by a member of Toronto's SWAT team. I've never been told to turn a gun back against the assailant. In fact every course that I've taken advises against this as the assailant can just as easily turn the gun back on you. The advice that I've received is to run like hell in a crooked line because most crooks don't have the skill to hit a moving target. Unless they chase you, then you run straight because it's faster and they probably can't run and shoot at the same time. If you do manage to get your hands on the gun, take the gun and run like hell. When you're in a safe place, call the cops, report the incident and turn the gun in.

    The best line of defense is to kick in his knee caps or karate chop his collar bone. If you can split a piece of wood with your fist, you can break a collar bone (or so I've been told. I've split the wood but never tested the theory on a collar bone).

  24. #24
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    You can't buy a handgun here unless you have a back ground check.
    It took 10 days for me to get my purchase permit so that I could buy the pistol. And here in Minnesota, you need a permit to conceal and carry in addition to taking a conceal and carry course,

    However, you can purchase a rifle at any time.
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  25. #25
    nightflier
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    Self-defense

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I've taken several self-defence courses. One was taught by a member of Toronto's SWAT team. I've never been told to turn a gun back against the assailant. In fact every course that I've taken advises against this as the assailant can just as easily turn the gun back on you. The advice that I've received is to run like hell in a crooked line because most crooks don't have the skill to hit a moving target. Unless they chase you, then you run straight because it's faster and they probably can't run and shoot at the same time. If you do manage to get your hands on the gun, take the gun and run like hell. When you're in a safe place, call the cops, report the incident and turn the gun in.

    The best line of defense is to kick in his knee caps or karate chop his collar bone. If you can split a piece of wood with your fist, you can break a collar bone (or so I've been told. I've split the wood but never tested the theory on a collar bone).
    You may be right but I guess it depends on the course, and most of what I've been taught may also be a little more aggressive of an approach. In Jiujitsu they teach you to use the gun to break the assailant's hand while turning it away from yourself - sometimes this will result in the gun being fired. Theoretically, if you've you're fast enough you can turn the gun around and or downward towards the assailant. While I've never been in this specific situation myself, I've heard from others who have and that's how they tell it. Basically, if you're past the point of talking the situation down and you are close enough, then a fast grapple of the hand with the gun may be the best way to break that hand or make the assailant drop it.

    All this presumes of course, that the gun has already been pulled out. If not, then there are many more options because the act of pulling it out (typically from a pocket, holster, or pants) is one that requires time and an awkward motion of the arm. This is, by the way, when most people with a gun make the mistake of firing the gun too soon and often injuring themselves or unintended targets. If the gun is not out yet, then indeed a kick to the knee or shins may be the better option. An elbow or palm to the nose or a finger to the eyes would work too, if you're that close. While the collar bones are easy to break and a very effective attack, the problem there is that the collar bones are often furthest from reach - not to mention that the chest is one part of the anatomy people instinctively protect first. I also would recommend a direct punch to the collar bone rather than a chop since the latter, if not done correctly, would be more likely to break your fingers.

    In aikido, the defensive motion if more circular, but the advantage there is that it deflects the gun/knife/stick/etc further from its intended target. Aikido also takes the whole environment into account so that static objects such as walls and poles become part of the strategy. In any case, depending on the distance involved, I would recommend either of those approaches. Hitting and kicking is sometimes not possible in close proximity so that makes many forms of martial arts, like karate for example, less effective. It's my guess that self-defense courses rely on these and take the approach that the crime will occur in a wide open space. Unfortunately, this is typically not where most crimes occur: they happen indoors, in small alleys, in public restrooms, often with other people present.

    I'm a little puzzled by what they taught you because I don't know many people who would turn their back on an assailant in an effort to run away, especially if the gun is already pointed at you. Even if one has succeeded in knocking an assailant down, I still think that most people will continue to attack in an effort to incapacitate the attacker. This is because of the fear of being shot or attacked from behind. That said, the advise of running away in a crooked line does support my point that it's very hard for anyone but the most well-trained shooters to hit a moving target. And if the shooter is injured or off balance, then I suppose that does help too.

    In the end, each situation is different. Factors such as the environment, the number of people present, lighting, and objects, all should be considered in determining a strategy for escaping harm. However, I still maintain that the handgun is not the best tool for the job in most of these situations, even considering the fear it imparts. And if it is well concealed, then it will also take longer to actually use it. In most of those situations, I would choose a different weapon.

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