was;PARADIGM REFERENCE SERIES :"THE KILLERS"

[leftit ]is Amazing How People Are Criticizing Paradigm Studio Series Well Known As:"the Killers".there Is Not Doubt Around The World In Hifi Quality Terms That It Is One Of The Speakers You Can Bet
And Never Be Regret.after A Long Time Looking For A Pair Of Floorstand I Had The Opportunity To Compare A Lot Of Them.i Checked
Monitor Audio,b&w(lowest Price),boston Acoustic,tanoy,psb,kef,thiel,
Totem,jamo,saphire,energy,mirage,polk,........,and Many Others.the Studio Series Killed All Of Them.why? ?????.
Why Paradigm Has Been Rated For Fourteen Consecutive Years # 1
In Price/value And First Place Overall Four Time So Far.?
The Sound Comes From Reference Is Very Good Even If You Play Them Loud ,smooth,natural,extended.the Midrange Were
Well Detailed And Sweet.high Frecuency Clean And Dynamic,never Strident.i Was Really Impressed With The Bass Response That Comes
From Those Small Woofers.you Don't Need Sub For Listening Music.extended And Powerful.
Paradigm Is Also One Of The Few Speaker Manufacters That Makes Every Part Of It In Their Own Manufacturing Facilities.
State Of The Art Performance.highly Recommended.
"easy To Live With.they Offer A Big And Involving Sound That Is Hard To Refuse.awesome Sound,nice Look,affordable Price.what Are You Looking For?
Dont'n Even Try To Compare With Audio Note Anymore( For People Who Dare To Do It) That Is Not Fair.by The Way Where Can I Get A Pair Of Them ? Best Buy ,walmart Or Home Depot?...
Thank You For Your Time And Raeding This Post.any Comments Will Be
Well Accepted.
For All Paradigm's Owner:enjoy Your Sound And Be Quiet Thinking Your Are Listening Killer Sound One Of The Best In The Earth Ever Heard .good Luck To All Of You..

I don't know about you other Paradigm owners, but this guy makes me PROUD to say I'm part of the Paradigm family. It's nice to be part of such elite company.

Here's your sign....

...They aren't the best speakers ever made.It is more than clear. But if you want to get a well built, excellent sound, sweet detail speakers, they are for you. I have been more than 20 years of my life listening hi-fi staff. Since Tannoy , Altec , Whaferdale, the old Fisher and Mc Intoch until now with Arcam, VTL, Conrad Johnson, Musical Fidelity, Balanced Audio, Meridian,and many others. Having the opportunity to compare many speakers, I can say with category Paradigm Studios are well designed. Probably there aren't speakers in the market that offer you what they do for your money. I am not fanatic of Paradigm. I also own B&W, Monitor Audio, and Boston Acoustic. I only want to be just. That is it. If there are people who prefer listening dark silk domes lack of details, they have the right but something is clear MUSIC isn't in that way. I advice everybody who has a limited buget, to listen them before to buy. There isn't other thing more important that put all the money you can buying the speakers. Forget about the electronic, they are important but nothing is more vital than speakers in a hi-fi chain. Paradigm aren't the last cup of tea, but they will pay you with real music every dollar you had to spend for them.

Jorge.

Please post a link that shows that Silk Domes lack detail or sound dark. PMC (The Professional Monitor Company) and much of the high end and mid-fi industry must have missed out on that information.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Please post a link that shows that Silk Domes lack detail or sound dark. PMC (The Professional Monitor Company) and much of the high end and mid-fi industry must have missed out on that information.

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Please post a link that shows metal tweeters are bright, RGA.;) It's hardly fair of you to complain about his remarks about silk dome tweeters since you do the same sort of thing with metal dome tweeters. Of course, it's silly either way.

Actually you can get that information from B&W - Their tweeter system is all about reduction of ringing created by their metal tweeters. So it is a series of error correction reducing the audible effect of those errors as much as they can. JM labs et al have similar methods. It is all very impressive that they can fix up the sound of these things - I would rather them choose complimentary materials that don't require error correction in the first place - but that costs money and reduces profit and don't look as cool.

Was there a Paradigm convention urging owners to go forth in the world and spout ridiculous claims? Maybe the trolls are simply getting more creative in trying to incite flame wars? My reply to ECP is the same as for the other poster: Get some help. If you are this insecure and your ego is so fragile about something as trivial as speakers, friend you've got far bigger issues to deal with.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Actually you can get that information from B&W - Their tweeter system is all about reduction of ringing created by their metal tweeters. So it is a series of error correction reducing the audible effect of those errors as much as they can.

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RGA where do you get your information on B&W's tweeters? The Nautilus tube is designed to dissipate acoustic waves from the back of the tweeter to stop them from bouncing back and affecting the primary wave eminating from the front of the dome. Metal has nothing to do with it. Think of throwing a stone in a pool. As the waves hit the wall they bounce back into the oncoming waves creating distortion and eventually will return to the point source. The tube prevents them from coming back. Simple.

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I would rather them choose complimentary materials that don't require error correction in the first place - but that costs money and reduces profit and don't look as cool.

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LOL! That's rich. Check the prices of your beloved AN. Do you honestly believe that Peter's profit margins aren't 10X greater (at least) than those of B&W? Sorry, if his hard costs are that high, he's either shopping where the US military does or he's a blithering idiot.

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Originally Posted by topspeed

RGA where do you get your information on B&W's tweeters? The Nautilus tube is designed to dissipate acoustic waves from the back of the tweeter to stop them from bouncing back and affecting the primary wave eminating from the front of the dome. Metal has nothing to do with it. Think of throwing a stone in a pool. As the waves hit the wall they bounce back into the oncoming waves creating distortion and eventually will return to the point source. The tube prevents them from coming back. Simple.

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You may have figured out what RGA was referring to, I certainly haven't. Heaven knows what he meant or where he got his information or whether he understood what he read. He didn't provide a link.

Its all subjective anyway

WTF???
Why all these stupid Paradigm posts? That's it..I'm selling them. I don't hate Paradigm, I hate their fanboys.

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Originally Posted by N. Abstentia

I don't know about you other Paradigm owners, but this guy makes me PROUD to say I'm part of the Paradigm family. It's nice to be part of such elite company.

Here's your sign....

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ROTFL. Yeah, Where I grew Up,People Sill Had To Be Proud Of Their Inbred Second Cousins Too. Family Pride, That's Touching. Snif.

Gotta Give ECP and 'E' for Effort. Its A Pain Capitlizing The First Letter In Every Word...

noddin0ff

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

WTF???
Why all these stupid Paradigm posts? That's it..I'm selling them. I don't hate Paradigm, I hate their fanboys.

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is Amazing How People Are Criticizing Von Schweikert. Well Known As:"the Killers".there Is Not Doubt Around The World In Hifi Quality Terms That It Is One Of The Speakers You Can Bet And Never Be Regret.after A Long Time Looking For A Pair Of Floorstand I Had The Opportunity To Compare A Lot Of Them.i Checked Paradigm Studio, Monitor Audio,b&w(lowest Price),boston Acoustic,tanoy,psb,kef,thiel,
Totem,jamo,saphire,energy,mirage,polk,........,and Many Others.the Von Schweikerts Killed All Of Them.why? ?????. Why Von Schweikert Has Been Rated For Fourteen Consecutive Years # 1
In My Mind And First Place Overall Four Time So Far.?
The Sound Comes From Von Schweikert Is Very Good Even If You Play Them Loud ,smooth,natural,extended.the Midrange Were
Well Detailed And Sweet.high Frecuency Clean And Dynamic,never Strident.i Was Really Impressed With The Bass Response That Comes
From Those Small Woofers.you Don't Need Sub For Listening Music.extended And Powerful. Von Schweikert Is Also One Of The Few Speaker Manufacters That Makes Every Part Of It In Their Own Manufacturing Facilities. State Of The Art Performance.highly Recommended. "easy To Live With.they Offer A Big And Involving Sound That Is Hard To Refuse.awesome Sound,nice Look,affordable Price.what Are You Looking For? Dont'n Even Try To Compare With Paradigm Anymore( For People Who Dare To Do It) That Is Not Fair.by The Way Where Can I Get A Pair Of Them ? Best Buy ,walmart Or Home Depot?...Thank You For Your Time And Raeding This Post.any Comments Will Be Well Accepted.
For All Vonschweikert Owner:enjoy Your Sound And Be Quiet Thinking Your Are Listening Killer Sound One Of The Best In The Earth Ever Heard .good Luck To All Of You..

How you like dem apples ;)?

Geez, I've owned a set of Paradigm Studios for three years, and I've never called them KILLERS or heard anyone else call them that either, so I have no idea how you get this idea that they're "well known" by that moniker. The only thing in my neighborhood that anybody calls by that name is the little chihuahua down the street, and something tells me that was done in jest.

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Originally Posted by RGA

Actually you can get that information from B&W - Their tweeter system is all about reduction of ringing created by their metal tweeters. So it is a series of error correction reducing the audible effect of those errors as much as they can. JM labs et al have similar methods. It is all very impressive that they can fix up the sound of these things - I would rather them choose complimentary materials that don't require error correction in the first place - but that costs money and reduces profit and don't look as cool.

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Not just metal ones. Silk, fabric, or ANY material that is used for a tweeter diaphragm will ring under the right conditions. That's the physics of it. I've induced ringing in almost every speaker I've owned, and I'm absolutely certain I could do it with your beloved AN's. It's just a matter of reaching the SPL that the back wave from the tweeter caused audible ringing. Some companies like B&W have gone to great length to increase that level to a point that you don't reach. Designing great speakers, and advancing the quality of them is all a matter of error correcting until your goals are met.

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

WTF???
Why all these stupid Paradigm posts? That's it..I'm selling them. I don't hate Paradigm, I hate their fanboys.

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I can't take it either. I just dissmanteled all my paradigms and used the wood for shelving. All the speakers I'm now using for coasters. I'm now going to buy some killer Yorks speakers.

Tell to B&W and JM Lab that they should change their metallic tweeters by silk. More over, beryllium is more extensive than aluminum and titanium. According to JM Lab engineers, it is the best material available to built tweeters at this moment. They don't have way to determinate the frequency response range because there aren't microphones able to do that at this time. Oh, problably we can suggest to musicians to change all the tweeters they have in their speakers, in their studios by silk domes. Maybe they will be able to realize how a real sound is. I am thinking to email to Philp Collins and advice him how easy his drum can sound better using silk domes in his new tour. Marshall, Pevey, JBL, Electrovoice will be very happy discovering this. I don't loose my illusion of see Pink Floyd in concert playing with silk domes manufactured by AN. Is it wrong? Noooo... if there is nothing better than silk......I don't see to much silk shirts lately.

The treble range is not just the top of the frequency area which you can get a vague impression of it is closer to the 1khz and up range. B&W IMO has issues with their handoff from midwoofer driver to tweeter. The tweeter in the B&W N805 is not in itself BRIGHT. The sound however doesn't mate well with the woofer so it sounds highly compartmenatalized so what you get is a hick-up - sometimes referred to as the BBC dip. They use a system to reducing resonances created by themselves and is only necessary because of their design. There is nothing particularly smooth or grain free about B&W tweeters. I have liked them because they happen to be along with JM labs some of the least annoying uses of metal tweeters i have heard - bith extensively work to FIX their tweeters. Of course SIlk can create a ring when pushed or even when not - some cheap sild speakers sound shut in perhaps giving Soft domes a bad rap. The 303 sounds more spitty and "louder" in the treble than the 302 when you listen to the two. the 302 s a way better sounding speaker but less fashionable and elss useful for screeching when a plane crashes on your Die Hard movie.

Generally though I'm pretty forgiving and would recommend the 303 and the Atom. It is not JUST the metal tweeter I take issue with - it may in fact as PatD argues have nothing whatsoever to do with the tweeter. it is however the treble response I do take issue with and the empiracal evidence or correlation of what I have heard seems a striking number of speakers I dislike using metal compared to others using silk domes - they have an inherent sonic characteristic otherwise they would NOT have been chosen in the first place - sorry but Tweeters DO in fact make a sonic difference.

The AN Tweeters are not in themselves inexpensive - Audio Note could use musch cheaper Metal tweeters and still advertise the use of SEAS and Foster and put in Kevlar drivers with metal tweeters and it would cost him no more money to build and probably a LOT less snce some of these companies are making drivers JUST for him. They chose those particularl drivers as they do all their parts for specific reasons - because they compliment the sound he is trying to achieve.

Music at rock concerts require a different sound alltogether. Generally horns. I have heard lots of speakers with metal tweeters and even on this foorum very recently you will see lots of recommended speakers using metal tweeters. It is the entire musical event that I am interested in - and there are very very few speakers using metal tweeters that I would be happy to own - lots I would recommend but I personally would not want to own.

Who really cares - if you want to believe that Paradigm is better than everything else then be happy that you have what you desire. You should also be happy that more peope will own Paradigm than the Audio Note. It's not a contest - AN has no interest in competing with that market.

The kind of people they will attract are the likes of this bloke http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/gen...es/345133.html

I'm Thinking About Change My Speakers For A Pair That Comes With Silk Dome
Specially If It Was Made With Silk From China The Best Believe Me.
Simple And Logical Question. How Is Going To Reproduce A Silk Dome A Cymbal Or Bells That Comes From Drums Or Instruments That Sound At Super
High Frecuency And By Nature Were Created With Metallic Parts.i Mean Made Of Metal.???????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????...........

aren't the best speakers available. First, look the money you pay for them and what they give to you in sound material. This is the point. I have to recognize Paradigm has done a good job. If they have a little agressive tweeter, tha's right for me. I am one who think if you start limiting the high frequency range, you cut music. For example, if you use quality staff, let say an Arcam cd player, and Musical Fidelity integrated, a well recorded cd, and a set of Studio 100, you have a terrific system. There is nothing which the speakers can add that not be music. Of course, if you hook the Paradigm to a cheap receiver and open the tone control to the top, it is impossible to enjoy good sound. All in all RGA, the studio serie is good for the money it cost. B&W,which are very good, are overpriced in my opinion. Eh, RGA, many times I put this kind of topic here to learn from different opinions. There is always something you can learn.
Jorge.

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Originally Posted by RGA

The sound however doesn't mate well with the woofer so it sounds highly compartmenatalized so what you get is a hick-up - sometimes referred to as the BBC dip. They use a system to reducing resonances created by themselves and is only necessary because of their design. There is nothing particularly smooth or grain free about B&W tweeters.

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While I'm not much of a measurement kind of guy, I'm sure you have some charts or links showing that the famed Nautilus tweeter is neither smooth in response or grain free in character...or are we to merely believe your golden ears?

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I have liked them because they happen to be along with JM labs some of the least annoying uses of metal tweeters i have heard - bith extensively work to FIX their tweeters.

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Again, I'm interested in where you get this information. Considering the huge pool of resources, R&D and engineering available to B&W and that they design and manufacture their own drivers, unlike AN, I'm interested in reading why a company would knowingly design a defective tweeter and then waste resources on what is apparently a proven bad design.

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Audio Note could use musch cheaper Metal tweeters and still advertise the use of SEAS and Foster and put in Kevlar drivers with metal tweeters and it would cost him no more money to build and probably a LOT less snce some of these companies are making drivers JUST for him. They chose those particularl drivers as they do all their parts for specific reasons - because they compliment the sound he is trying to achieve.

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Really? You're kidding! Choosing drivers that compliment a desired sound? What a novel approach! You're implying that other companies such as Paradigm, B&W, JM Lab, Avalon, Wilson, Kharma, Talon, Totem, MBL, Revel, and others chose metal tweeters because it was cheaper?? Well if Peter says it, it must be true. Shame on these reputable manufacturers for cutting corners and ripping off consumers. 5 minutes in the corner for them!

Tweeters, regardless of material, are part of a whole. It is up to the designer and engineer to get it to sound right. My belief is that when people automatically label metal tweeters as "harsh, sibilant, ringing" and soft domes as "natural, extended, smooth" they aren't necessarily lying, they are just preconditioning themselves for the result based on visually influenced psychoacoustics and presuppositions. I honestly believe that if we took a fair sample of reputable speakers sporting both hard and soft dome tweeter and (dare I say it?) blind folded the listeners, the majority of the time they wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.

As for me, I own and enjoy speakers with both metal and soft dome tweets and quite honestly, never gave a moments notice to the material being used when I bought them. As long as it sounds good, they could use whatever they want.

I didn't buy a tweeter...I bought an entire speaker.

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Originally Posted by dvjorge

aren't the best speakers available. First, look the money you pay for them and what they give to you in sound material. This is the point. I have to recognize Paradigm has done a good job. If they have a little agressive tweeter, tha's right for me. I am one who think if you start limiting the high frequency range, you cut music. For example, if you use quality staff, let say an Arcam cd player, and Musical Fidelity integrated, a well recorded cd, and a set of Studio 100, you have a terrific system. There is nothing which the speakers can add that not be music. Of course, if you hook the Paradigm to a cheap receiver and open the tone control to the top, it is impossible to enjoy good sound. All in all RGA, the studio serie is good for the money it cost. B&W,which are very good, are overpriced in my opinion. Eh, RGA, many times I put this kind of topic here to learn from different opinions. There is always something you can learn.
Jorge.

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You wanna learn? Good. I'm going to teach you a lesson in value so maybe you and your cronies will stop spouting off about Paradigm.

Perceived Value:
What you think a product is worth.

Real Value:
What everyone else thinks the very same product is worth.

True Value:
Ah yes...this is a hardware store.

End of lesson.

Class dismissed.

Topspeed.

I arrived at my correlational conclusion after looking back at what I liked and what I didn't like and it seemed to me that those were generally separated into the types of tweeter material selected - I never paid any attention to tweeter material at the time. The New Paradigm sounds laid back. The 604S3 didn't send up a red flag either and it isn't overly pricey.

There is no further use discussing the issue - I have stated exceptions and my views and I agree with Auio Note's and Quad's philosphy that the sonic signature of the driver should form a close match - just using a silk dome does not gaurantee that either and I can;t speak for how it worked out for Quad or how it worked out for the VR-1. There is no sonic advantage for metal tweeters - when they ring they ring badly.

As for what B&W does or does not do and why a maker builds their own drivers - has more to do with money than quality. Companies like Dynaudio, SEAS, VIfa, Scanspeak, Fostex(Foster) etc make the best drivers in the world. How they are used of course is most important.

Comparing the N805 directly against the J/Spe - it doesn't take a golden ear - Layman at AA discussed the treble response numerously of B&W - you can find lots of results doing a search there I'm sure.

"Considering the huge pool of resources, R&D and engineering available to B&W and that they design and manufacture their own drivers, unlike AN, I'm interested in reading why a company would knowingly design a defective tweeter "

Well there is Bose. They claim to use massive R&D and have the most money in the industry and build their own stuff. The point?

The B&W tweeter is not defective - but there is a good reason that when you go from 600 to Nautilus to Sig you get a better tweeter - which implies the one below it isn't as good - which means it's improveable and where is it improved - less grain. And I'm not here to slag thir tweeters - I'm the one who usually fdefends B&W. But these companies are trying to suggest sonic improvements with metal tweeters - there never was any and there isn't. Why pretend they are re-inventing and revolutionizing the industry? They ain't.

AN does not need to build their own drivers when there is a company who SPECIALIZES in making some of the best drivers on the planet to Audio Note's specs. No question that this raises Audio Note's costs relative to the company who can mass produce their own drivers. But Audio Note is not about reducing costs at all costs. Plus they are not big enough to be mass producing their own drivers - that requires a plant with workers and that's not what they're interested in when what they would make won't be any better than what SEAS or Foster can make for them. I mean Audio Note could start making their own capacitors too I suppose.

Audio Note as it is builds a considerable part of the audio chain - their own transformers, their own wiring, their own soldering material. But there is a limit.

You need to start getting your facts straight and quit relying on the biased opinion of Mr. Peter Q and the AN fan club.

There was a very significant advantage that prompted the transition to metal tweeters.
Precision. Accuracy. The metal dome has been proven to be far more precise, revealing and accurate than the soft dome tweeter, silk, etc.

In exchange for this "closer to perfection" advantage there was some baggage that the metal tweeters brought along with it. They require integration with a very well designed, well thought out crossover that attenuates certain frequencies and limits the burden on the tweeter, protecting it from the harmful midrange frequencies.

The problem you're hearing is too many "stock" or "non-optimized" crossovers that are likely compromised for cost or ease of assembly, at the expense of making the tweeter sound "harsh" "revealing" and "fatiguing". But given the cost of crossover components (pennies) to tweeter design (dollars), it was an excellent tradeoff. You're also likely hearing very cheap metal tweeters that aren't an even a comparable match to the Foster/Seas drivers in the AN's.
Wanna hear some cheap soft dome tweeters??? Let me know...

Soft domes are far more forgiving and don't always require as much work in crossover design. They're quite popular in the DIY world because of this. They also generally lack the last bit of detail and accuracy, but, it's not a night and day difference.
Now as you start getting further into the high end, the soft-dome keep sounding better too, and the differences between metal and soft-dome diminish further...

Often times (in fact, I'd say most of the time) the choice of soft-dome, silk, titanium, aluminium, or whatever for the tweeter is made from the point of view of complementing the mid-woofer.
Given what you can expect in a crossover for the woofer, you can start looking at choices of tweeters to best compliment the sytem. Material is really important, though biases (too often) creep in.

You are very right in that alot of todays entry level and mid-fi speakers are harsh in the highs. They use cheap metal tweeters because of the increased detail they provide. So a guy at Best Buy or Future Shop thinks a $300 Athena is incredibly detailed. A more experienced, or critical listener hears the flaws it brings with it.

You shouldn't look at the material of the tweeter as a factor of performance within a complete speaker system. I'm very sure Audio Note could build a great speaker with a metal tweeter.

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Originally Posted by RGA

As for what B&W does or does not do and why a maker builds their own drivers - has more to do with money than quality. Companies like Dynaudio, SEAS, VIfa, Scanspeak, Fostex(Foster) etc make the best drivers in the world.

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I'm quite sure there are financial benefits in being able to produce your own drivers. I'm also quite sure they are able better control quality and development of said drivers to meet their specific needs. To make a continuous profit, you must realize it's always, always, always about the quality of the product.

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Comparing the N805 directly against the J/Spe - it doesn't take a golden ear - Layman at AA discussed the treble response numerously of B&W - you can find lots of results doing a search there I'm sure.

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Well if Layman believes it, it must be true also :rolleyes:. I've bandied about at AA now and again and for the most part find the place to be a giant circle jerk. Look, you know I think amps sound different, sources sound different, and dbt's aren't the answer to world hunger. But good Lord, most of the fawning that goes on over there elevates a$$ kissing to an art form. Far too much "flavor of the month" front-running for my taste. While I like the VR4jr, look how many threads have been about that speaker in the last 3 or 4 months. You'd think it was signaling the Second Coming.

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Well there is Bose. They claim to use massive R&D and have the most money in the industry and build their own stuff. The point?

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You might very well be the only person on the face of the Earth that equates B&W with Bose. I'm so flabbergasted...I'm...I'm speechless...

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The B&W tweeter is not defective - but there is a good reason that when you go from 600 to Nautilus to Sig you get a better tweeter - which implies the one below it isn't as good - which means it's improveable and where is it improved - less grain.

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Actually, the differences are found in the crossovers and quality of components used. I'm unable to locate where B&W claims the tweeters are different from the 700's to the Nauts to the Sigs. Could you provide a link?

any other instrument store and you listening to a kid to hit a cymbal directly on the drum. (no amps, no microphones, no speakers) You listen to the sound from the instrument directly. When a silk dome shows me it can reproduce a high frequency like this, I mean metallic, a metallic sound, this will be the day I will burn all my speakers. Is a non-metallic material able to produce a matallic sound? The problem aren't voices and other instruments, the problem is silk can not sound as a cymbal. Metallic tweeters can.