-
Will Vinyl Save The iPod Gen From Crappy Sound?
Interesting little article from the NYT -
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/ny...2&ref=nyregion
I personally think it is a bit of a fluke - but maybe not. Maybe a $100 turntable doesn't sound that bad?
What say you all? I know there is a bit of a push from the emo/hipster/fixie bike/ crowd with vinyl. But it can't be that big. I'm the only person of my age group I know that owns a turntable. Not that I hang out with people in my age group. I'm still trying to learn how to tie my shoes and all.....
-
No, Vinyl will not save us from 'crappy sound'. Lossless and better yet... High Resolution Downloads will...
Vinyl will continue indefinitely as a niche product... It may even triple its market share to less than 3% of total album sales, but it will never be a dominant format again... CD, SACD, DVDA, BluRay Audio will all fade out before the light extinguishes on Vinyl... The reason simply being that all those formats are digital (like the downloads they compete with)... while Vinyl is both analog and fun (to hold, look at and collect)....
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
No, Vinyl will not save us from 'crappy sound'. Lossless and better yet... High Resolution Downloads will...
Vinyl will continue indefinitely as a niche product... It may even triple its market share to less than 3% of total album sales, but it will never be a dominant format again... CD, SACD, DVDA, BluRay Audio will all fade out before the light extinguishes on Vinyl... The reason simply being that all those formats are digital (like the downloads they compete with)... while Vinyl is both analog and fun (to hold, look at and collect)....
Don't get me wrong. I don't think vinyl will ever be dominate. I'm just curious if it will help spur a new generation of audiophiles. Realizing there is better sound than an mp3.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
Don't get me wrong. I don't think vinyl will ever be dominate. I'm just curious if it will help spur a new generation of audiophiles. Realizing there is better sound than an mp3.
I think it might contribute but I don't believe it will be the major factor...
An interesting point that was raised on the Stereophile Forums the other day was whether the "new generation of audiophiles" already exists!
Someone pointed out how massive the movement on Head-Fi is... That there are many younger persons purchasing high end headphones and going to Canjam meets etc...
So it may just be that the traditional view of what an audiophile is has changed, with the new gen... New Gen seem to want portable, convenient, affordable and good quality....
Another possibility is that these headphone lovers will buy speakers, as the earn more income later on in life...
Ironically, without even intending to, I ended up being in the headphone crowd, along with my generation, based on the fact that it was the cheapest way to get real high-end sound + it was portable...
And when you really think about it... it makes sense that a generation raised on iPods would seek out high end headphones, instead of high end speakers...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
I know there is a bit of a push from the emo/hipster/fixie bike/ crowd with vinyl. .
Dude, that is SO funny!! I laughed out loud....oh man, so true. Or should I say, so rad.
Vinyl won't save anyone from anything except maybe having to buy a frisbee occasionally. I think the people you've described so well have no clue about fidelity. They want vinyl cuz it's totally cool.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
Don't get me wrong. I don't think vinyl will ever be dominate. I'm just curious if it will help spur a new generation of audiophiles. Realizing there is better sound than an mp3.
I think the problem isn't the fact that vinyl sounds better, it's that to listen to it you actually have to sit and listen when you do. Most people now rarely just sit and listen to music. There's just so many distractions from so many other different forms of entertainment that music gets put into the background. Audiophilia has been steadily contracting even as the technology gets better. Witness the failure of DVD-Audio, or the minor inroads of SACD on CD. People simply do not spend the time or effort to actually hear the difference, so why pay a premium to get better quality? I know it's a pretty cynical view of the audio scene , but I'm just calling it as I see it.
-
All I can say is that all the independent music stores in the Twin Cities (at least the one's that I visit) have huge Vinyl sections and business is booming!
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Dude, that is SO funny!! I laughed out loud....oh man, so true. Or should I say, so rad.
Vinyl won't save anyone from anything except maybe having to buy a frisbee occasionally. I think the people you've described so well have no clue about fidelity. They want vinyl cuz it's totally cool.
Dood - you know what is sad. I have a fixie. But I don't dress like a hipster and I take showers every day.
You know what is funny though. I went to a hipster music show a month or so ago. And besides from smelling a lot less than punk rockers, and a bit diff dress and sound, it was pretty much the same scene.
Oh, and one of the bands was using a tape deck, old keyboards, and old equipment. It was such a throw back in the days of software. I swear my other friend who is a real musician but does most of his work on the Mac could have played their whole set with a click of the space bar and it would have been better. Shiat, There was probably more processing power in my cellphone than in the pounds and pounds of old equipment they used.
Anyways....just a little rant.....
But I do hope that through the resurgence of vinyl there maybe birthed some real audiophiles who are willing to sit, listen, buy, and enjoy good equipment.
-
Just a fad.
I am from the days when records were serious, with shelves of records, zillions of record stores, and a lot of turntables to choose from.
I spent my gas money on Physical grafitti once.
But those days are gone, the pleasant surprize to todays kids that something sounds better than an 128 kbs MP3 to the contrary.
I have a turntable, one reason I started with Integra/Onkyo is their inclusion of phono preamps, but there is ONE place to buy records in this town, hanging on by its toenails.
That is just the reality, and I hate it, but records will die out eventually.:1:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
You know what is funny though. I went to a hipster music show a month or so ago. And besides from smelling a lot less than punk rockers, and a bit diff dress and sound, it was pretty much the same scene.
Funny I was talking to Troy about this not too long ago. Years ago I roadied for my friends band, Shotmaker. Nick Pye, bass player. We came through Cali twice, once with Fugazi and another tour with Quicksand and Sparkmarker. We stopped in Oakland for one night with Fugazi. They played a club called the Music Hall, or something like that. Long time ago...
I've seen scenesters in almost every major city in N America. They are all the same. Arms crossed, possibly earplugs, don't look too happy or impressed, could possibly nod to the beat if the band starts cookin...
Sound familiar? By the end of any tour with these guys I was SOOOOO sick of the "scene".
OK, I put in my rant...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
What say you all? I know there is a bit of a push from the emo/hipster/fixie bike/ crowd with vinyl.
HHhhmmmnnn...interesting question. Swishy is a consumate hipster and, despite being a notorious skinflint, is willing to spend some cheese on righteous wax. That's a plus. Finch is a biker dude but is completely into buying CDs in volume via the 50 cent bins...a wash...
Then there's the Emos...eventually a few of them will have to grow up and recognize the level of pretentious douchebagedness involved in wearing all black with pink and purple spiked hair while drinking Starbucks lattes in their mom's Saab amidst lamentations of suburban angst. These developing youth will eventually eschew all remnants of their embarassing past lives and create a boomerang effect. We may be seeing the last spike in vinyl sales right now.
Unfortunately, there are more goth wannabes than Swishies....
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
Then there's the Emos...eventually a few of them will have to grow up and recognize the level of pretentious douchebagedness involved in wearing all black with pink and purple spiked hair while drinking Starbucks lattes in their mom's Saab amidst lamentations of suburban angst. These developing youth will eventually eschew all remnants of their embarassing past lives and create a boomerang effect. We may be seeing the last spike in vinyl sales right now.
.
Ha! Well put.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicAdam
Interesting little article from the NYT -
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/ny...2&ref=nyregion
I personally think it is a bit of a fluke - but maybe not. Maybe a $100 turntable doesn't sound that bad?
What say you all? I know there is a bit of a push from the emo/hipster/fixie bike/ crowd with vinyl. But it can't be that big. I'm the only person of my age group I know that owns a turntable. Not that I hang out with people in my age group. I'm still trying to learn how to tie my shoes and all.....
Pathetic. That's my reaction to the vinyl fad. Yes of course, LPs are going to sound better than 128kbps download. And I suppose it's true that popular music is typically severely compressed on CD, (from what I'm told since I listen most to classical). But there is no technical, economic, or rational reason why such a compromised medium as the LP should continue to be used.
Doubtless a properly engineer CD is superior in terms of fidelity to the LP equivalent. The same may be said for digital files that are lossless 16/44.1 or even 320kbps MP3. They will also sound better played using a good player, properly configured computer, and/or DAC. Granted, these conditions met too infrequently.
As Geoffcin mentions, the necessities of handling LPs tends to make people to listen with more attention. It's damned true that you will like a piece of good music better if you listen with degree of concentration -- if you don't like it better, the music is crap.
Also a lot of people simply like the rituals of handling vinyl. BTW, this was never my problem: I was a early convert to CD largely because I hated what was required to properly handle LPs. For that matter I no longer have much patience for handling CDs and listen instead to ripped copies.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
[
Doubtless a properly engineer CD is superior in terms of fidelity to the LP equivalent. The same may be said for digital files that are lossless 16/44.1 or even 320kbps MP3. They will also sound better played use a good player, properly configured computer, and/or DAC. Granted, these conditions met too infrequently.
.
Fair enough. That's your opinion. You didn't address the potential of analog when properly set up though. Have you heard a high end Linn table? Believe me, it has a magical sound that digital could never hope to reproduce.
Clearly, you enjoy accuracy with your music Feanor. For that digital is fantastic. But analog has a soul...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Clearly, you enjoy accuracy with your music Feanor. For that digital is fantastic. But analog has a soul...
Not to attack you poppaC, but WTF does that mean???
Analog and tube Lovers are perplexed as to why digital and Solid State audiophiles often regard them as lunatics...instead of trying to focus on the kind of measurements that would show why "analog sounds better" than digital, they instead choose to dismiss measurements (and science in general) and refer to witchcraft and mysticism in their explanation of why Analtube is better...
Why won't the Analtube Manufacturers stop being so lazy and start designing their own test measurements to show why "Analtube is better"...
I have no doubt that any real differences can be measured, but it's up to someone to show the initiative and start measuring...
SS/Digital have already designed measurements that support their position, so it's more than overdue that Analtube does the same...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Fair enough. That's your opinion. You didn't address the potential of analog when properly set up though. Have you heard a high end Linn table? Believe me, it has a magical sound that digital could never hope to reproduce.
Clearly, you enjoy accuracy with your music Feanor. For that digital is fantastic. But analog has a soul...
I love the sound of good analog, but it is too much trouble to get to that good sound. Too much tinkering, too much cleaning, too much care in storage, it is all just too much. Also much like digital, not all analog is equal, and just like digital you run into far too many warts before you get to that rare spine tingling recording.
For far to many years we have been using the CD format as a comparison to good analog. The problem with that comparison is that digital has not been taken to the level that analog has. We(as in recording engineers) have not taken advantage of the lower noise floor and wider dynamic range, and only a few of us are recording, editing, and mixing on high quality digital equipment. Analog has had far more years for both recording engineers and end users to tinker with, tweak, and perfect. Only now do we engineers have the tools to create truly good digital recordings, but the adoption of the format that can best carry it out is slow in catching on in music only applications.(Bluray disc)
To be honest, I have never heard a analog recording (regardless of the cost of the equipment) that sounded quite as good as TrondheimSolistene: Divertimenti on Bluray disc. The recording, musicianship and music quality is breath taking.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Fair enough. That's your opinion. You didn't address the potential of analog when properly set up though. Have you heard a high end Linn table? Believe me, it has a magical sound that digital could never hope to reproduce.
Clearly, you enjoy accuracy with your music Feanor. For that digital is fantastic. But analog has a soul...
Soul you say?? Pardon me but that is really a weary cliché. I've never understood what it meant.
Well, maybe I've never listened to high-end analog setup -- or maybe I did but it just didn't make much impression. But so what? For me it's irrelavant because classical music is basically completely unavailable in vinyl; (please don't talk to me about flea market bargins: these virtually not extent nowadays even if they were 10-15 years ago). Is it an odd coincidence that classical, the most demanding musical form, isn't available on vinyl? Maybe not.
-
OK, Terrence. That was an earful. You are a passionate guy, I like that. I know you're a man of audio science, and I am not. I only know what I hear. Digital has a harshness about it that at least to my ears, analog does not.
You could very well be right. I very well may be living in an audio fantasy land of my own creation. But what can I tell you? It's what I enjoy. I also LOVE the interaction with the discs and tables. It's a big point of pride for me knowing my LP's are in top shape, and my tables are set up correctly. I don't think that pride exists for CD lovers, but I could be wrong about that.
I also haven't heard the greatest offerings of digital format. I am familiar with studio work, as I am a musician and have been in a few studios. Realistically, digital will lead audio into the future. I'm sure the Blu-Ray sounds great. What makes it better than CD? Less compression? School me daddy-o, in layman's terms please.
As far as my reply to Feanor goes, I didn't feel that he was giving the potential of analog a fair shake.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Pathetic. That's my reaction to the vinyl fad.
:eek: Wow Feanor, tell us how you really feel? :mad5:
While I agree on several points, I do feel that sitting down and listening to an album on vinyl isn't a pathetic thing.
One of the things I think is driving the resurgence in vinyl is the fact that people are interested in how things were in the past. We're more than a generation into the "Digital revolution" and people are curious about how music sounded in the past. More than a few are surprised to hear that the compressed ultra-limited CD's they are used to have nothing in common with quality vinyl. Sure high rez digital formats, or even a well engineered CD will eclipse vinyl, but give the kids the props for at least trying to find good recordings.
Of course there's always the element of "She'll think I'm cool with my retro-sound system" But that's been going on since time began. Heck, I've even done it back in the day. (hey baby, wanna hear my cool 6ft tall speaks?) :wink5:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Soul you say?? Pardon me but that is really a weary cliché. I've never understood what it meant.
Well, maybe I've never listened to high-end analog setup -- or maybe I did but it just didn't make much impression. But so what? For me it's irrelavant because classical music is basically completely unavailable in vinyl; (please don't talk to me about flea market bargins: these virtually not extent nowadays even if they were 10-15 years ago). Is it an odd coincidence that classical, the most demanding musical form, isn't available on vinyl? Maybe not.
OK, I won't use "soul" since it has everyone in an uproar. I will simply say that it has a sound that digital cannot replicate. Unless of course you've ripped an LP, but even then, not the same.
I enjoy digital just fine, so don't think I am against it. I have owned many dac's and have a small collection of CD and digital files.
My real love is for vinyl though.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Not to attack you poppaC, but WTF does that mean???
Analog and tube Lovers are perplexed as to why digital and Solid State audiophiles often regard them as lunatics...instead of trying to focus on the kind of measurements that would show why "analog sounds better" than digital, they instead choose to dismiss measurements (and science in general) and refer to witchcraft and mysticism in their explanation of why Analtube is better...
Why won't the Analtube Manufacturers stop being so lazy and start designing their own test measurements to show why "Analtube is better"...
I have no doubt that any real differences can be measured, but it's up to someone to show the initiative and start measuring...
SS/Digital have already designed measurements that support their position, so it's more than overdue that Analtube does the same...
No, I don't feel attacked at all. I have no numbers for you, but do you have any numbers for me? Personally, I don't care too much about numbers anyhow. I will trust my ears to tell me, and believe me, I am open minded.
I am not over the vinyl deep end. I just get sick of people taking a giant crap on the format. Infact, I am weary of extreme vinyl lovers who over tweak their tables with voodoo type changes. As I have said, I listen to all kinds of digital and like it fine. I probably wear my portable every other day, 320 kb MP3.
-
I really don't think vinyl will go away but I think the future of high end audio is in music servers running lossless file formats that will have sound equal and probably superior in many ways to vinyl. Analog has came to the end of improvement level and vinyl is the best analog can bring which is fine and sounds great. But I think digital is just starting to show its ability to convey the same good things that analog brings with the lower signal to noise and distortion numbers of digital. I think physical media in any form has a limited time left for the new comers to this hobby. I do think there will be vinyl lovers around for a while but at some point the file based non physical media will be the next audiophile media. Just my opinion.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
OK, Terrence. That was an earful. You are a passionate guy, I like that. I know you're a man of audio science, and I am not. I only know what I hear. Digital has a harshness about it that at least to my ears, analog does not.
I agree with you chubbs. Digital does have a harshness to it.
Best Regards,
Stan
-
In my line of work, I believe most of us are guilty of not only liking our own way of doing things but also of expecting our colleagues to like it, too...or else they're just plain wrong. In audio, I see the same thing.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
...
But what can I tell you? It's what I enjoy. I also LOVE the interaction with the discs and tables. It's a big point of pride for me knowing my LP's are in top shape, and my tables are set up correctly. I don't think that pride exists for CD lovers, but I could be wrong about that.
...
As far as my reply to Feanor goes, I didn't feel that he was giving the potential of analog a fair shake.
That part I believe. Basically that's what I said earlier: some people actually like these rituals. For me they hold no charm.
When I got into audio circa 1971, analog was all there was; actually apart from cassettes (which were very new and very crappy) LPs were all there was. In fact I had a pretty good setup: the sort that would cost ~$2k today. But in the dozen or so years before the advent of CD I'd had my fill of pampering LPs and was ready to move on.
Actually, my first CDP sounded pretty awful; really the stereotypical CD sound; it was relatively bright, harsh, etc., compare to vinyl. However never so bad as digital haters made it out to be. But that was then. Today, digital nasties are largely a thing of the past.
Hey, if you want smooth, try 256 kbps; a lot of people actually prefer its sound to full 16/44.1.
|