Will Vinyl Save The iPod Gen From Crappy Sound?

[Woochifer]

Your title seems to imply that vinyl by default sounds good and digital files sound "crappy," which is not always true and actually closer to false if you're talking about those budget USB turntables that have flooded the market.

The sound quality variation in vinyl playback is much much much wider than with any digital format. Back in the vinyl heyday, most record players sounded MUCH worse than what you currently get with 128k MP3 files.

The typical record player used in those days included an integrated non-replaceable cartridge, unbalanced tone arm, spherical sapphire stylus, along with a drop spindle changer used for stacking multiple LPs for uninterrupted playback. All of those factors conspired to create horrid sound quality, poor tracking (which many consumers solved by taping a coin to the headshell to weight it down), and premature wear on both the records and needles.

Differences between CD players work within much narrower range -- consider that nearly all of them can produce a near flat frequency response between 20 Hz and 20 kHz with minimal wow and flutter. And while MP3 sounds can be bad in their own right, their level of bad does not even approach how horrible vinyl can sound under less than optimal conditions. Plus, if you bump up the bitrate on MP3, it can gradually become nearly indistinguishable from the original.

Audiophiles have largely forgotten about how lousy much of the vinyl market actually was when it still reigned as a mass market format. The revisionist history getting passed around right now idealizes an audio paradise that never existed.

Vinyl CAN sound better than a CD version if you got a good turntable, a very good cartridge, took the time to counterbalance and adjust the tonearm overhang, and have an LP that was mastered and pressed well. The cheap USB turntables that I've seen in stores does not look like the stuff that can reveal the best that vinyl has to offer. In fact, the build quality looks more reminiscent of those wretched record changers from decades past. A decent cartridge alone (which is fundamental to getting decent sound out of vinyl) will cost more than what these USB turntables cost.

I've been hearing about the hype about the vinyl revival since the early-90s. As much as I love my vinyl, it will never amount to much more than a niche hobby. Just look at the LP sales. 2.1 million LPs sold is the highest level in nearly two decades, yet the sales from just one hit CD will easily eclipse that total.

The difference between the vinyl market today and how it was two decades ago when it crashed is that LPs today cost about 3X more than they did back then. In college, I kept my turntable going because it was simply cheaper to buy LPs than CDs. The motive for a college student today to go with vinyl would obviously be way different.

[02audionoob]

As much as I like my vinyl, the idea of keeping a turntable going because LPs are cheaper than CDs is still part of my motivation. I'll sometimes buy something on vinyl that I could have gotten on CD for the same or less money, but for the most part I like coming home with a handful of records for about a dollar or two each. So far, the records from the mono days have sounded better than the CDs in the cases where I've had the chance to compare. That's not the fault of the medium, though. They've apparently just been remastered badly.

Beyond my own collection of around 700 LPs I was given a collection of a few hundred records, from which I culled about 100 classical LPs in mint or near-mint condition before donating the rest. Those 100 alone were probably worth the price of my humble turntable scored on eBay, although the gift records came with a nice free turntable, too.

I do feel certain that vinyl isn't really coming back. I've never understood how we could get excited about it doubling (from a drop in the bucket to two drops in the bucket).

[audio amateur]

I'd like to get a decent TT in the near future, but looking at the price of vinyl is putting me off.

[poppachubby]

I'd like to get a decent TT in the near future, but looking at the price of vinyl is putting me off.

Start looking for second hand resources. Online and off. Ebay and GEMM, Amazon too. Check around for local shops that carry used stuff. Buying vinyl shouldn't have to be expensive. There's tons of near mint/mint vinyl sitting around in people's attics and basements....

[Auricauricle]

Even if vinyl doesn't hold the market these days, the interest of those like myself (and, no doubt, many others) in some of the "classic" recodings of yore will keep the LP lovers happy for a while, I reckon. Yes, CD's, etc. and the recordings of the present day are often very well recorded abd performed, but some of us still thrill to the sound of Beverly Sills, Bill Evans and other great musicians, whose obscure oeuvre may not make it to CD. Still others don't want to spend the extra money and are quite fond of pulling the old record out of its sleeve and sticking it on the record player....

I don't necessarily feel as poorly about the state of Audio and think that, although IPods and mp3 players, etc. have certainly made their presence known, many folks are just as interested in good sound as we once were. I have had many conversations with young people who quite like the thought of visiting friends with LP's and CD's in hand and sharing an evening with good music, wine and fellowship. I have spoken of my "Back Porch" sessions, which have become somewhat legendary amongst our friends....

So, will the LP wiggle its way into the mp3 crowd? Who knows....Just knowing that the love of music and good times is still alive nd kicking gives me hope, though....

[atomicAdam]

Your title seems to imply that vinyl by default sounds good and digital files sound "crappy," which is not always true and actually closer to false if you're talking about those budget USB turntables that have flooded the market.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to open the can of worms that is vinyl vs digital.

What I really wonder is if there will be an causation effect.

100 people by Cheap turntables. 30 think there can be better - 15 buy better turn tables, go on to be part of the audiophile society. Do that a few hundred times over and more people, their friends that come over to listen and their offspring.

Something along those speculative lines.

[Geoffcin]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to open the can of worms that is vinyl vs digital.

What I really wonder is if there will be an causation effect.

100 people by Cheap turntables. 30 think there can be better - 15 buy better turn tables, go on to be part of the audiophile society. Do that a few hundred times over and more people, their friends that come over to listen and their offspring.

Something along those speculative lines.

I love that expression! Where does one actually GET a can of worms?

Your calculus actually makes sense, but in a reverse way. If your looking for a TT it means that you think there's something wrong with your audio world already. These people are budding audiophiles whether vinyl grabs them or not. In any case just by making the effort to ckeck out vinyl they are likely to run into some seriously good audio rigs, and after you've been exposed to that, audio is never the same again.

[Auricauricle]

Peronally, I think no matter what these IPods and what not are made of--whether they're plastic, aluminum, vinyl or whatever--they still won't play as well as the real thing!

(Ummm...)

[02audionoob]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to open the can of worms that is vinyl vs digital.

There are worse cans you could open...

[Woochifer]

As much as I like my vinyl, the idea of keeping a turntable going because LPs are cheaper than CDs is still part of my motivation. I'll sometimes buy something on vinyl that I could have gotten on CD for the same or less money, but for the most part I like coming home with a handful of records for about a dollar or two each. So far, the records from the mono days have sounded better than the CDs in the cases where I've had the chance to compare. That's not the fault of the medium, though. They've apparently just been remastered badly.

Yep, for all the energy wasted in the countless the vinyl vs digital debates, the point often lost is that a lot of recordings were optimized around the quirks of the vinyl medium. Those master recordings that produced great sound quality with LPs sounded horrible when transferred to CD. A lot of the remasters had to take a more careful read on the intended sound quality rather than simply taking a master tape and presuming that an unequalized playback was what sounds best.

Start looking for second hand resources. Online and off. Ebay and GEMM, Amazon too. Check around for local shops that carry used stuff. Buying vinyl shouldn't have to be expensive. There's tons of near mint/mint vinyl sitting around in people's attics and basements....

But, not nearly as much good stuff as before.

Problem with the second hand market is that the vast majority of the product was produced more than 20 years ago. More and more of what I see in the used record bins is not in great condition. That's just simply because as time elapses, those used LPs might actually get played a lot and go through multiple owners, many of whom don't know how or care to properly maintain their LPs. It's a finite supply whose value partly depends on the condition, and that condition that will only get worse over time as the LPs get played and resold.

When the CD began its ascension, people were dumping their LP collections right and left. Many of these records were practically brand new, and the record stores could barely keep up with the flood of used LPs coming through their doors. One of the stores in my old neighborhood had days where they would sell LPs by the pound (as in weight, not the currency) to open up space on their shelves. Back then, you could find some bona fide gems in those mass selloffs. Definitely not the case now.

I don't necessarily feel as poorly about the state of Audio and think that, although IPods and mp3 players, etc. have certainly made their presence known, many folks are just as interested in good sound as we once were. I have had many conversations with young people who quite like the thought of visiting friends with LP's and CD's in hand and sharing an evening with good music, wine and fellowship. I have spoken of my "Back Porch" sessions, which have become somewhat legendary amongst our friends....

I agree with the assertion about the state of audio. I don't think it's all that different now, and might in fact be better overall. Like I mentioned in my previous post, a lot of audiophiles tend to idealize the LP era as a time when more people cared about sound quality. But, it's hard to take that assertion seriously when recalling how LPs primarily got played back on portable record players, all-in-one systems, spindle changers, and any number of other devices that would make an iPod sound like extreme high end audio by comparison.

Then, just as now, the majority of the market was not investing in full sized component-based systems. Yesterday's all-in-one systems serve the same function as today's mini-systems. Yesterday's portable record players and boomboxes have evolved into today's iPod docks.

The audio market has been in a long-term movement towards mobility. That's why the wretched sounding prerecorded cassette had already begun outselling the LP before the CD format was even introduced. Those who value sound quality have always sought out ways to optimize their listening experience. I think the difference is that today, it's actually a lot easier to get decent sound quality from lower end equipment. With digital formats, you're really starting at a higher baseline than with analog. Analog CAN sound better, but a lot more steps need to be optimized along the way and that typically costs more money.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to open the can of worms that is vinyl vs digital.

What I really wonder is if there will be an causation effect.

100 people by Cheap turntables. 30 think there can be better - 15 buy better turn tables, go on to be part of the audiophile society. Do that a few hundred times over and more people, their friends that come over to listen and their offspring.

But, on the flip side, you might have the other 70 thinking "What the hell have these audiofools been smoking? I'd rather listen to AM radio than this crap!"

One of the things about vinyl's exile to the wilderness fringes of the audio market is that it weeded out most of the lower end equipment. For a while, it was actually hard to find a bad record player. Now, with the USB turntables beginning to gain a market foothold, you're seeing the return of the low end turntable with absolutely no documentation about the cartridge that they use. For anyone wanting to see what all the vinyl hype is all about, this is bound to disappoint in a big way.

[atomicAdam]

Now, with the USB turntables beginning to gain a market foothold, you're seeing the return of the low end turntable with absolutely no documentation about the cartridge that they use. For anyone wanting to see what all the vinyl hype is all about, this is bound to disappoint in a big way.

Yes - I worry about this as well. But also, what makes me giggle, is that I know some folks with some nice turntables, and some big homes in the hills, who say they like music, and then go buy the $199 USB TT to convert to mp3. Just makes me shake my head.

I don't know why though, someone would buy a USB turntable if they were just getting into vinyl.

[Ajani]

I agree with the assertion about the state of audio. I don't think it's all that different now, and might in fact be better overall. Like I mentioned in my previous post, a lot of audiophiles tend to idealize the LP era as a time when more people cared about sound quality. But, it's hard to take that assertion seriously when recalling how LPs primarily got played back on portable record players, all-in-one systems, spindle changers, and any number of other devices that would make an iPod sound like extreme high end audio by comparison.

Then, just as now, the majority of the market was not investing in full sized component-based systems. Yesterday's all-in-one systems serve the same function as today's mini-systems. Yesterday's portable record players and boomboxes have evolved into today's iPod docks.

The audio market has been in a long-term movement towards mobility. That's why the wretched sounding prerecorded cassette had already begun outselling the LP before the CD format was even introduced. Those who value sound quality have always sought out ways to optimize their listening experience. I think the difference is that today, it's actually a lot easier to get decent sound quality from lower end equipment. With digital formats, you're really starting at a higher baseline than with analog. Analog CAN sound better, but a lot more steps need to be optimized along the way and that typically costs more money.

Well said Wooch...

I'm getting kinda tired of the cries of doom and gloom from audiophiles... The claims that the hobby is dying... The over-romanticizing of glory days of Vinyl and Tubes that never really existed... I remember the Turntable my parents had in the Living Room when I was a kid... In fact I even got one of those all in one turntable boomboxes that my dad had back in college, when I was young... All of those items were far far far inferior sonically to an ipod playing 256K AAC tracks (downloaded from the iTunes Store)....

Considering that we can't even count the number of High End manufacturers available today, and that number keeps on increasing.... I seriously doubt that the hobby is dying...

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, just check out head-fi and then try claiming that young people don't care about sound quality... In fact, while so many still claim that "MP3 killed our hobby and that young people don't care about quality", they ignore the fact that the largest "MP3" seller (Apple) upgraded all of their files to Higher Bitrates early this year... so now all iTunes downloads are 256K.... WHY would they increase the quality, if young people don't care??? Why has Rhino Records started releasing their material online in Lossless and High Resolution formats???

The only way to claim the hobby is dying is if you define an Audiophile solely as being someone who listens to Vinyl/analog...

Like with most debates in Audio, it comes down to the simple attitude that "whatever type of equipment I like is real High End (sounds like live music), and anything else is crap"....

[Auricauricle]

I'll jump on this one and suggest that the audio industry is in a state of flux. At the dawn of the Digital Age, when the CD was introduced, there was much hue and cry about the awful harshness and general sonic inferiority of that medium. Since then, manufacturers have risen to challenge to produce recordings and players that are pretty dern spectacular. Now that we are in the Internet Era, the audio industry has followed the according trends...Many of us are decrying the loss of quality and the deterioration of everything we hold dear. Eventually, I suspect these quirks and kinks will be worked out, and the mp14 players of the future and it's cousins will produce recordings of exceptional quality.

(Ahem.)

[Ajani]

I'll jump on this one and suggest that the audio industry is in a state of flux. At the dawn of the Digital Age, when the CD was introduced, there was much hue and cry about the awful harshness and general sonic inferiority of that medium. Since then, manufacturers have risen to challenge to produce recordings and players that are pretty dern spectacular. Now that we are in the Internet Era, the audio industry has followed the according trends...Many of us are decrying the loss of quality and the deterioration of everything we hold dear. Eventually, I suspect these quirks and kinks will be worked out, and the mp14 players of the future and it's cousins will produce recordings of exceptional quality.

(Ahem.)

I agree to some extent.... I've always said that MP3 was a transitional format... and truth is that the original MP3s aren't even dominant anymore... 256K AAC is far superior to 128K MP3 (just check John Atkinson's comparison of formats - last year on the Stereophile forums I believe) and for many persons is an acceptable substitute for lossless/redbook....

Also, any iPod can play 256K AAC and Lossless (CD Quality) formats... so it's just a matter of filling your iPod with quality tracks (and not some 96K MP3 Crap that you stole from Limewire)...

The Tech is already there.... I'm just happy to see so many High End manufacturers finally embracing what the New Generation of Audiophiles are into...

[poppachubby]

I agree to some extent.... I've always said that MP3 was a transitional format... and truth is that the original MP3s aren't even dominant anymore... 256K AAC is far superior to 128K MP3 (just check John Atkinson's comparison of formats - last year on the Stereophile forums I believe) and for many persons is an acceptable substitute for lossless/redbook....

Also, any iPod can play 256K AAC and Lossless (CD Quality) formats... so it's just a matter of filling your iPod with quality tracks (and not some 96K MP3 Crap that you stole from Limewire)...

The Tech is already there.... I'm just happy to see so many High End manufacturers finally embracing what the New Generation of Audiophiles are into...

Hmmm, maybe it's just me but it seems you are making some pretty tall claims also my friend. I said that analog has a soul, you say The New Generation of Audiophiles, isn't that Prince's backing band? Oh wait a sec....

I think we can re-visit the OP's article to find out that the new generation is looking past the predictable MP3 and portable route. The thing is, you are making some great points but you seem to have a hate on for analog. There's no room for it in your audiophile world or what? Not to be rude, but I am sensing that since you have not bothered to embrace vinyl or analog, you are rationalizing it out of the equation.

I indeed love my turntable more than my CDP, but I still acknowledge the benefits and reality of digital.

[Smokey]

Vinyl CAN sound better than a CD version if you got a good turntable, a very good cartridge, took the time to counterbalance and adjust the tonearm overhang, and have an LP that was mastered and pressed well.

Of course assuming that CD we’re talking about is not remastered, and optimized to full capacity

If everything is equal, Vinyl’s inherently lower dynamics and higher noise (even with proper setup) will put it a notch below CD in term of sound quality.

[poppachubby]

Of course assuming that CD we’re talking about is not remastered, and optimized to full capacity

If everything is equal, Vinyl’s inherently lower dynamics and higher noise (even with proper setup) will put it a notch below CD in term of sound quality.

Nope. Not really. The Beatles remasters that came out in '87 were awful. I've been listening to my old man's vinyl up until this year. The new remasters are quite nice on CD. Remastered doesn't always mean:

optimized to full capacity

[Feanor]

Nope. Not really. The Beatles remasters that came out in '87 were awful. I've been listening to my old man's vinyl up until this year. The new remasters are quite nice on CD. Remastered doesn't always mean: {optimized to full capacity}.

You're correct from what I hear about these Beatles remasters. They've have been criticized extensively for excessively high recording levels and compression.

Of course this doesn't have anything to do with the CD as a technical medium, only the way it is used. That's a point I've made for most of this decade that it's not the medium but the recording practice that is to blame. As a mainly a classical listen I haven't been nearly so afflicted by the abuse of the medium as people who listen to the more popular schlock but there are plenty of not-so-good classical recoridings too.

The same sort of argument applies to hi-rez. Is SACD or DVD-A techically better than CD? Maybe, but I can't hear it; (I'm deaf above 10kHz). However, do SACDs sound better on average? Yes, but it's because more care has typically been taken with the recording and mastering.

[Ajani]

Hmmm, maybe it's just me but it seems you are making some pretty tall claims also my friend. I said that analog has a soul, you say The New Generation of Audiophiles, isn't that Prince's backing band? Oh wait a sec....

I'm not sure what you are referring to as tall claims... Could you be more specific...

Also Prince's Backup was called The New Power Generation... Prince and The NPG produced some great stuff (clearly that's just an opinion)....

I think we can re-visit the OP's article to find out that the new generation is looking past the predictable MP3 and portable route. The thing is, you are making some great points but you seem to have a hate on for analog. There's no room for it in your audiophile world or what? Not to be rude, but I am sensing that since you have not bothered to embrace vinyl or analog, you are rationalizing it out of the equation.

Nope, I have no hate for analog... And I have no issue with those who continue to use it OR even new persons who want to adopt it... While I personally have no interest in it, I don't see how someone else liking it affects me...

What you are reading as me hating analog is actually my disdain for the mentality that only Analtube Lovers are Audiophiles! I am certain that Tubes and Analog can sound brilliant, but I find it ridiculous how many audiophiles want to reject anything digital or Solid State as not being high end...

I constantly hear claims in audio that Magnepan Speakers sound better than any B&W Speaker, Totem/PSB is the best value for money and will "Destroy" any other brand at 3 times the price... Recently (in another thread) I've even seen the claim (from someone who really hates high powered SS amps) that a set of B&W 802D Speakers sounded better with the power off than using Bryston Amps... And the list goes on and on...

Audiophiles constantly claim that people have never heard X Speaker, Y Amp or Z Source and that's why they buy the "inferior" stuff that they do... So many of us refuse to accept that someone else may actually have heard the gear we rave about and just not liked it!

It is all about about our sonic preferences... I've heard some highly regarded brands in the Audiophile community, and thought they sounded like nothing special to me (in fact one even sounded downright awful to me)... I also know that there are Audiophiles who have heard/owned the Equipment that I rave about, and didn't like the sound at all... This fact is true of both us Audiophile Consumers and Reviewers at the Major Mags... Take Stereophile for example, some of the Reviewers preach every month about Low powered Tubes and Vinyl... Others only go for Multichannel Sound... some love Digital and Solid State with traditional cone speakers... etc... These reviewers have different sonic priorities... It's clearly not the case that John Atkinson and Kalman Robinson have never heard Tubes, Vinyl and High Efficiency Speakers... yet they both still review, rave about and own a load of high powered solid state, digital and Low Efficiency speakers... So clearly they just like the way the gear sounds...

So to summarize this sermon:

IMO, anyone interested in better quality sound is an audiophile... Regardless of whether you love, low powered SET Tubes and Horn Speakers, Massive Panel Speakers that like to be dominated by a big brute of an amp, Rocking the Turntable or tape deck, Using a standalone CD Player, have gone discless (whether by computer, USB DAC or iPod Dock) or are listening to a multichannel mix with a SACD/DVDA/BuRay Source....

There is NO universally acknowledged "Superior" format... All this disagreement exists because we all have different sonic preferences (not because the other person has never heard our setup and would therefore immediately toss all their existing gear if they did)...

I indeed love my turntable more than my CDP, but I still acknowledge the benefits and reality of digital.

There's nothing wrong with that... If you enjoy that sound coming from the turntable then that's all that matters!!!

[Geoffcin]

Ok, who let the worms out?

[Feanor]

...
Nope, I have no hate for analog... And I have no issue with those who continue to use it OR even new persons who want to adopt it... While I personally have no interest in it, I don't see how someone else liking it affects me...

What you are reading as me hating analog is actually my disdain for the mentality that only Analtube Lovers are Audiophiles! I am certain that Tubes and Analog can sound brilliant, but I find it ridiculous how many audiophiles want to reject anything digital or Solid State as not being high end...
...

Know what? ... either do I -- whatever the impression I might have given.

I find the sound of vinyl agreeable. But I have the sort of mind that detests irrationality. The superiority of the LP format today -- such as it might be -- lies entirely in the production choices, not the medium. The popularity of LP -- such as some would like to believe -- is entirely based on trendiness and the appeal of gimickery. If the supposed "audiophiles" who are supposedly flocking to the format really wanted better sound, they would instead insist on better produced CD or hi-rez downloads. But if vinyl makes people happy, why not, eh? The same for religion.

BTW, Poppachubby, I hope you're not including me amongst the people who reject vinyl because they haven't tried. I hope you caught to fact that I was listening to vinyl for years before you were born and a quite few afterwards on a much more than decent analog setup, viz. ERA belt drive turntable, Grace 707 tonearm, Sonus Blue cartridge, Apt Holman preamp.

[02audionoob]

Of course this doesn't have anything to do with the CD as a technical medium, only the way it is used. That's a point I've made for most of this decade that it's not the medium but the recording practice that is to blame. As a mainly a classical listen I haven't been nearly so afflicted by the abuse of the medium as people who listen to the more popular schlock but there are plenty of not-so-good classical recoridings too.

Everything but your own choice of music is schlock. Typical.

[Feanor]

Everything but your own choice of music is schlock. Typical.

Pardon me: typical of what?

Chacun à son goût. Your entitled feel the same about my choices: I won't be offended.

[02audionoob]

Pardon me: typical of what?

Chacun à son goût. Your entitled feel the same about my choices: I won't be offended.

Typical choice of words for you. You make it point to offend.

[Ajani]

Ok, who let the worms out?

Let the Worms eat the rotting flesh of the ******** Lovers!!!!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA