Plasma Is Dead

[Feanor]

Say it isn't so!! But the way prices are looking around here now it could work out that way.




I keep an eye on the options and prices for 46" or 47" 1080p units. Right now, BestBuy.ca's least expensive plasma is ...

Panasonic 46" 1080p Plasma (TH46PZ80) = $1700

On the other hand they offer no fewer than five LCD for <$1700:

Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p LCD (LC46D65U) = $1600
Samsung 46" 1080p nel LCD (lN46A530) = $1400
Toshiba Regza 1080p 46" LCD (46RV530U) = $1400
LG 47" 1080p LCD (47LG50) = $1350
Sony 46" 1080p LCD (KDL46S4100) = $1300

For a poor person like me the $400 differential is very significant. Although I plan to hold off for while, were my CRT to poop out, I'd probably have to opt for one of these LCDs.

Prices in Canada for either technology are unlikely to fall any further in the next quite a few months due to the bashing the Canadian dollar has taken. (The Cdn$ collapse is God's punishment for Canadians who are degenerate anti-American supporters of Obama and gay marriage.)

[DetroitIrish]

make the drive and jump the border LOL

[Woochifer]

Say it isn't so!! But the way prices are looking around here now it could work out that way.




I keep an eye on the options and prices for 46" or 47" 1080p units. Right now, BestBuy.ca's least expensive plasma is ...

Panasonic 46" 1080p Plasma (TH46PZ80) = $1700

On the other hand they offer no fewer than five LCD for <$1700:

Sharp Aquos 46" 1080p LCD (LC46D65U) = $1600
Samsung 46" 1080p nel LCD (lN46A530) = $1400
Toshiba Regza 1080p 46" LCD (46RV530U) = $1400
LG 47" 1080p LCD (47LG50) = $1350
Sony 46" 1080p LCD (KDL46S4100) = $1300

For a poor person like me the $400 differential is very significant. Although I plan to hold off for while, were my CRT to poop out, I'd probably have to opt for one of these LCDs.

Prices in Canada for either technology are unlikely to fall any further in the next quite a few months due to the bashing the Canadian dollar has taken. (The Cdn$ collapse is God's punishment for Canadians who are degenerate anti-American supporters of Obama and gay marriage.)

If price is a concern, you'll want to expand your options to also include the 42" and 50" sizes. You don't have a lot of plasma options in the 46" size to begin with, since that's more of a standard size in the LCD market, and the highest volume plasma panel makers primarily supply 42" and 50" panels.

Just checked the Future Shop website, and they have a 50" LG 1080p plasma listed for $1,700, as well as the 50" Panny 1080p for $1,900. These are really high prices compared to what's available stateside. There are also lower prices on sets in the 720p resolution. The standard large LCD panel size is 52" and those are generally more expensive.

When comparing the LCD prices, you should focus on the 120 Hz models. Those are the only LCD models that can maintain anywhere near HD resolution with moving images. Definitely compare the picture though, since LCD and plasma have different image characteristics. The measured characteristic where LCD has a clear-cut advantage is brightness, so if you have a bright room, that might be better for you. OTOH, plasma has much higher motion resolution, higher contrast levels, better color accuracy, and IMO better handles SD programming.

[Feanor]

If price is a concern, you'll want to expand your options to also include the 42" and 50" sizes. You don't have a lot of plasma options in the 46" size to begin with, since that's more of a standard size in the LCD market, and the highest volume plasma panel makers primarily supply 42" and 50" panels.

.

Thanks, Wooch,

I definitely would prefer plasma and wouldn't exclude 50" (though anything larger would be excessive for our viewing space).

Right now for me any decision criterion are hypothetical. However if I had to right now today, I'd probably go under C$1000 and plasma -- that would restrict me to something like this ...

Samsung 42" Plasma (PN42A450) = $900.

[Woochifer]

Thanks, Wooch,

I definitely would prefer plasma and wouldn't exclude 50" (though anything larger would be excessive for our viewing space).

Right now for me any decision criterion are hypothetical. However if I had to right now today, I'd probably go under C$1000 and plasma -- that would restrict me to something like this ...

Samsung 42" Plasma (PN42A450) = $900.

Costco Canada also has a coupon special on the 42" 720p Panny for $980CDN. Need to add $60 shipping plus GST. A plus with Costco is their 90-day return window (this is also the window in which you can get refunded for any future price reductions), and automatic doubling of the factory warranty.

Costco special

Too bad the pricing's so out of whack north of the border because the U.S. Costco site currently sells the 42" 1080p Panny for $900USD, which is insane considering that those 1080p plasmas only arrived in stores in March 2007 with a list price of $2,500USD.

If you're not looking to buy right now, you might want to check on the Black Friday specials. That could be where the price points remain after the holidays.

[Feanor]

...

If you're not looking to buy right now, you might want to check on the Black Friday specials. That could be where the price points remain after the holidays.

There's no Black Friday up here, Wooch: too bad!

Yes, I would definitely check out Costco. In fact my wife & I get there 1/mo. or so for various things; they have some interesting deals on the TV and various accessories.

The Canadian dollar has once again be come an reason (or excuse) for price differentials vs. the U.S.

[Duds]

If you are in Canada, I would definitely have the Pioneer 5080 at the top of my list. As far as I know they are still available in Canada.

There's no Black Friday up here, Wooch: too bad!

Yes, I would definitely check out Costco. In fact my wife & I get there 1/mo. or so for various things; they have some interesting deals on the TV and various accessories.

The Canadian dollar has once again be come an reason (or excuse) for price differentials vs. the U.S.

[kexodusc]

There's no Black Friday up here, Wooch: too bad!

Yes, I would definitely check out Costco. In fact my wife & I get there 1/mo. or so for various things; they have some interesting deals on the TV and various accessories.

The Canadian dollar has once again be come an reason (or excuse) for price differentials vs. the U.S.

Unfortunately the Canadian government in its wisdom continues to insist upon a consumer gouging, protectionist 7% import duty on consumer electronics and our dollar's strength vs the Yen and other Asian currencies the last year or so hasn't been great. There's your price difference.
A/V receiver prices are even more sickening.

2 years ago the prices were pretty damn close to par on TV's though...
FWIW, Projector prices are much closer from what I've seen. Futureshop isn't the best place to TV shop, I don't think.

[pixelthis]

When comparing the LCD prices, you should focus on the 120 Hz models. Those are the only LCD models that can maintain anywhere near HD resolution with moving images. Definitely compare the picture though, since LCD and plasma have different image characteristics. The measured characteristic where LCD has a clear-cut advantage is brightness, so if you have a bright room, that might be better for you. OTOH, plasma has much higher motion resolution, higher contrast levels, better color accuracy, and IMO better handles SD programming.

MORE lies and nonsense from shameless liar wooch, govt propaganda
wonk in his "real" life.
THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen.
Just another example that you will say anything to justify the idiotic purchase of a plasma, a tech with more problems than a Mexican soap opera.
Plasma does NOT have "better color" higher motion res, or any other advantage over LCD, this is just a fanboy for plasma talking,
trying to sucker the clueless into buying into the format HE bought into,
in the vain hope that the more who buy plasma , the longer it will stay
on the market.
NEED to trim that nose of yours, its growing a tad fast

[GMichael]

MORE lies and nonsense from shameless liar wooch, govt propaganda
wonk in his "real" life.
THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen.
Just another example that you will say anything to justify the idiotic purchase of a plasma, a tech with more problems than a Mexican soap opera.
Plasma does NOT have "better color" higher motion res, or any other advantage over LCD, this is just a fanboy for plasma talking,
trying to sucker the clueless into buying into the format HE bought into,
in the vain hope that the more who buy plasma , the longer it will stay
on the market.
NEED to trim that nose of yours, its growing a tad fast

Pix,

I don't own a plazma and agree with what Wooch said.
Plasma DOES have better color, better motion res, better black levels, etc etc etc.....

Not saying LCD is bad. Just stating the truth.

[GTF]

MORE lies and nonsense from shameless liar wooch, govt propaganda
wonk in his "real" life.
THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen.
Just another example that you will say anything to justify the idiotic purchase of a plasma, a tech with more problems than a Mexican soap opera.
Plasma does NOT have "better color" higher motion res, or any other advantage over LCD, this is just a fanboy for plasma talking,
trying to sucker the clueless into buying into the format HE bought into,
in the vain hope that the more who buy plasma , the longer it will stay
on the market.
NEED to trim that nose of yours, its growing a tad fast

"THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen."

Do you feel the same way about DLP?
They both do the same thing.
If you can't see it fine.
Nothing wrong with that.

But pixelthis, I see it and that is why I purchased a CRT instead of any flat screen TV.
DLP, LCD or Plasma.
I didn't want a 201 lb TV. I wanted something lighter, thinner, latest technology.
I spent hours in 3 different store's looking at all 4 type's of TV's and picked a CRT
because It's flaws are easier on my eye's then any of the others, especially LCD!!!

OK Plasma doesn't have the motion problems like the other two,
just a different set of a compromise's that are in my opinion, easier to live with.
Once the CRT dies.

LCD is even worse as a computer monitor.
BUT! try finding a CRT monitor any longer. :-(

Thankfully I have a relic.

[Woochifer]

MORE lies and nonsense from shameless liar wooch, govt propaganda
wonk in his "real" life.

And you accuse me of personal attacks and lies!

THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen.

Only if you believe that there's nothing wrong with the resolution on moving images dipping below even DVD resolution, which is exactly what happens with 60 Hz LCD screens. 1080p plasmas maintain over 800 lines of resolution on moving images, while the Vizio 1080p 60 Hz LCD that Home Theater magazine tested last year couldn't even display 400 lines. Even the 120 Hz LCD models have lower motion resolution than plasma, DLP, and LCoS, but at least they're above DVD resolution.

If there's nothing wrong with the moving image on a 60 Hz LCD, then I suppose you'll tell everyone that Vizio is ripping people off by selling and marketing the more expensive 120 Hz LCD TVs?

Just another example that you will say anything to justify the idiotic purchase of a plasma, a tech with more problems than a Mexican soap opera.

Nope, just stating how I assessed the advantages and disadvantages of each screen tech. You seem to be the only one so blindly worshipful of his TV that you won't acknowledge one single drawback.

EVEN William Wang, founder of Vizio, last year had this to say about the plasma tech that you claim is so problematic:

"I personally think plasma is better technology and picture quality"

Lemme guess, he's also an idiot and a Mexican novela fan!

Plasma does NOT have "better color" higher motion res, or any other advantage over LCD, this is just a fanboy for plasma talking,

Only a blind (and stupid-as-rocks) LCD fanboy would deny all the benchmark tests confirming that plasmas have these exact advantages over LCD sets.

And BTW, let's not forget that your hero William Wang of Vizio says "plasma is better technology and picture quality" Unlike you, he acknowledges reality.

He further indicated that LCD's only advantage was less glare and higher resolution. Of course, this was LAST YEAR before Panasonic and Samsung's latest anti-glare screens came out, and before 1080p plasmas hit the market.

Looks like them Vizio boys you shill for are nothing more than plasma fanboys themselves! What's a little pixie to do?

trying to sucker the clueless into buying into the format HE bought into,
in the vain hope that the more who buy plasma , the longer it will stay
on the market.
NEED to trim that nose of yours, its growing a tad fast

[Woochifer]

Pix,

I don't own a plazma and agree with what Wooch said.
Plasma DOES have better color, better motion res, better black levels, etc etc etc.....

Not saying LCD is bad. Just stating the truth.

Careful GM -- need to take baby steps with pix. After all, he still has trouble with up is up, world is round, and 2+2=4.

[GMichael]

Careful GM -- need to take baby steps with pix. After all, he still has trouble with up is up, world is round, and 2+2=4.

4?
4?!

Are you fracking kidding me? 4?

[RoadRunner6]

Yeah, and every golfer on this forum just ducked!

[pixelthis]

"THERE is nothing wrong with HD "movement" in a 60hz lcd screen."

Do you feel the same way about DLP?
They both do the same thing.
If you can't see it fine.
Nothing wrong with that.

But pixelthis, I see it and that is why I purchased a CRT instead of any flat screen TV.
DLP, LCD or Plasma.
I didn't want a 201 lb TV. I wanted something lighter, thinner, latest technology.
I spent hours in 3 different store's looking at all 4 type's of TV's and picked a CRT
because It's flaws are easier on my eye's then any of the others, especially LCD!!!

OK Plasma doesn't have the motion problems like the other two,
just a different set of a compromise's that are in my opinion, easier to live with.
Once the CRT dies.

LCD is even worse as a computer monitor.
BUT! try finding a CRT monitor any longer. :-(

Thankfully I have a relic.

aS A MATTER OF FACT I am using a 42" screen as a computer monitor as we speak.
If you havent checked out the latest screens, and if your last purchase
was a CRT then you probably havent, its time to do so, they have improved a great deal since then.
DLP isnt even worth talking about unless you're talking projectors,
they work fine in a projector.
AND you cant find a CRT because they are obsolete.
The last CRT I saw in a store (that was a serious screen) was a 34" SONY, this 1500$ set was on closeout for 600 bucks.
Its performance was somewhat disapointing.
After watching newer screens the faults of a CRT were even more noticable.
Mayby your dinosaur will last till OLED becomes a serious contender
a few years down the road.

[pixelthis]

Pix,

I don't own a plazma and agree with what Wooch said.
Plasma DOES have better color, better motion res, better black levels, etc etc etc.....

Not saying LCD is bad. Just stating the truth.

And wooch is stating a lie when he states that a LCD loses half the res
when theres movement.
LCD is progressive for the most part, and one of the good things
about progressive monitors is that a progressive doesnt lose res during movement like a interlaced screen does.
Just doesnt happen.
AN INTERLACED picture loses up to half of its resolution when theres movement.
Alll of the "experts" on this board are quick to jump on me, why don't you jump on someone who is stating an obvious and blatant falsehood to a newbie who doesnt know it?

[pixelthis]

Careful GM -- need to take baby steps with pix. After all, he still has trouble with up is up, world is round, and 2+2=4.

But one thing I dont have trouble with is the TRUTH.
Sadly you've been cooking the books for the govt for so long you dont have a clue as to what the truth IS.
Truth to you is what you can browbeat or con someone into beleiving.
Enjoy your RUBE GOLDBERG "monitor" as long as you can.
You can slander me all you want, but when they day comes (and it will come a lot sooner than you think) you wont be able to hide from the TRUTH of what a piece of CRAP tech plasma IS.
AND WHEN IT COSTS, you're the one who will be paying, NOT ME.

[Woochifer]

But one thing I dont have trouble with is the TRUTH.
Sadly you've been cooking the books for the govt for so long you dont have a clue as to what the truth IS.
Truth to you is what you can browbeat or con someone into beleiving.
Enjoy your RUBE GOLDBERG "monitor" as long as you can.

You can slander me all you want, but when they day comes (and it will come a lot sooner than you think) you wont be able to hide from the TRUTH of what a piece of CRAP tech plasma IS.
AND WHEN IT COSTS, you're the one who will be paying, NOT ME.

Piece of crap tech? That's not what your BFF William Wang (founder of Vizio) says -- "plasma is better technology and picture quality"

[Woochifer]

And wooch is stating a lie when he states that a LCD loses half the res
when theres movement.

Nope, you're the one that's lying since I've cited my sources on this finding many times. Calling someone a liar does not a truthful rebuttal make.

LCD is progressive for the most part, and one of the good things
about progressive monitors is that a progressive doesnt lose res during movement like a interlaced screen does.

All TVs lose resolution when displaying moving images, LCD just happens to lose the most. If all progressive TVs cannot lose motion resolution then how come on a benchmark test, that Vizio 60 Hz 1080p LCD TV measures less than 400 lines of resolution? Even the best performing 1080p plasmas can "only" display around 900 lines with a moving image.

AN INTERLACED picture loses up to half of its resolution when theres movement.
Alll of the "experts" on this board are quick to jump on me, why don't you jump on someone who is stating an obvious and blatant falsehood to a newbie who doesnt know it?

William Wang, Founder of Vizio: "plasma is better technology and picture quality"

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Nope, you're the one that's lying since I've cited my sources on this finding many times. Calling someone a liar does not a truthful rebuttal make.

I have tried to tell him the same thing. Vizio as a brand is particularly bad with moving images. I also led him to a link that showed this, of course he waved it off and changed the subject.

All TVs lose resolution when displaying moving images, LCD just happens to lose the most. If all progressive TVs cannot lose motion resolution then how come on a benchmark test, that Vizio 60 Hz 1080p LCD TV measures less than 400 lines of resolution? Even the best performing 1080p plasmas can "only" display around 900 lines with a moving image.

There are a few ways that LCD's lose image quality with moving images. Motion blur and the panel's pixel response. Vizio's have a problems with motion blur, and they have some of the poorest pixel response ever tested. I think pixels eyes have gotten so used to these artifacts, he denies they happen. I do not like LCD's hyper sharpness which makes everything look unnatural. Not to mention skin textures that make folks look like rubber, plasma is just a better display technology. You cannot get a person who has never seen a top notch display at work to understand this. He is so busy putting down high end CRT based projection system, but does not realize that while the technology is mature, it is still the best way to watch HD movies. Seeing a calibrated high end projector with 9" CRT's is a perfect source to compare the PQ of the digital panels. IMO plasma's come closest to mimicking the best of CRT. That is why I purchased a plasma panel instead of a LCD. The Kuro's while expensive came the closest to looking like my G-90, LCD was not even in the ballpark.

This crap he says about interlacing causes a CRT to lose half its resolution is just plain bull. I want to see the test results he conducted that support that notion.

You can only convince a person what good performance and PQ is after they have seen it. Pixie has never seen it, and you are going to have a mighty hard time convincing him that he has not already seen it. One mans floor is another ceiling.

[Woochifer]

I have tried to tell him the same thing. Vizio as a brand is particularly bad with moving images. I also led him to a link that showed this, of course he waved it off and changed the subject.

Even funnier is seeing him now trying to dodge that quote from the Vizio founder. For someone who wraps so much of his self-worth around shilling for Vizio and spreading nonsense about how plasma's a "crap tech," it's too funny to see pixie in denial over his first love sleeping with the enemy.

There are a few ways that LCD's lose image quality with moving images. Motion blur and the panel's pixel response. Vizio's have a problems with motion blur, and they have some of the poorest pixel response ever tested. I think pixels eyes have gotten so used to these artifacts, he denies they happen. I do not like LCD's hyper sharpness which makes everything look unnatural. Not to mention skin textures that make folks look like rubber, plasma is just a better display technology. You cannot get a person who has never seen a top notch display at work to understand this. He is so busy putting down high end CRT based projection system, but does not realize that while the technology is mature, it is still the best way to watch HD movies. Seeing a calibrated high end projector with 9" CRT's is a perfect source to compare the PQ of the digital panels. IMO plasma's come closest to mimicking the best of CRT. That is why I purchased a plasma panel instead of a LCD. The Kuro's while expensive came the closest to looking like my G-90, LCD was not even in the ballpark.

That's exactly why I went with plasma. Even after adjusting the settings down from the torch mode (which reduces an LCD TV's brightness advantage), the LCD picture just didn't look as natural to me as the plasma sets. And watching ESPN HD feeds, the plasma sets handled motion noticeably better the LCD sets I've seen. The 120 Hz and LED backlit LCDs handle motion better and have a better overall picture than before, but they're also more expensive than 1080p plasmas and IMO still a step below in picture quality.

I've now gone through the first 100 hours on my TV, so now I'm ready to do a more precise calibration even though I have to say that the picture adjustments on my TV are mediocre at best (that's the drawback of going with the entry level 1080p Panny). Even with my settings simply set to the AVS Forum's recommended settings, I must say I've been blown away by the picture quality, especially with OTA HD channels. Better than any of the in-store demos of that same TV.

The only demo that's been more impressive was watching a Pio Elite playing a directly connected Blu-ray. Should be interesting to see what happens when Pioneer begins using Panasonic panels starting next year. I positively have to drop by sometime and check out your new setup.

This crap he says about interlacing causes a CRT to lose half its resolution is just plain bull. I want to see the test results he conducted that support that notion.

Just like mixing meds with moonshine, I warned him about mixing his metaphors. He obviously didn't listen.

You can only convince a person what good performance and PQ is after they have seen it. Pixie has never seen it, and you are going to have a mighty hard time convincing him that he has not already seen it. One mans floor is another ceiling.

All anyone needs is to look at a calibrated picture and use that as a reference. Even though I've been going with a non-HD CRT all these years, my set was calibrated so I knew that those torch mode TV demos at Best Buy et al were nowhere close to what the color balance, sharpness, brightness, black levels, etc. should have been. Then you got pixie who thinks his TV looks great in the torch mode setting, and uses the stretch mode with 4:3 sources.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, and every golfer on this forum just ducked!

Hey RR6! I have that poster! Not sure whether or not I want to frame it and put it up in my living room though. Should I?

[RoadRunner6]

I think it would add a great deal of class to your place, Rich. I heard those guys recently got kicked out of Hooters. No.....wait a minute...oh yeah, it was John Daly.

RR6

BTW, the photo of John Daly is not available as a poster.

[pixelthis]

Nope, you're the one that's lying since I've cited my sources on this finding many times. Calling someone a liar does not a truthful rebuttal make.



All TVs lose resolution when displaying moving images, LCD just happens to lose the most. If all progressive TVs cannot lose motion resolution then how come on a benchmark test, that Vizio 60 Hz 1080p LCD TV measures less than 400 lines of resolution? Even the best performing 1080p plasmas can "only" display around 900 lines with a moving image.



William Wang, Founder of Vizio: "plasma is better technology and picture quality"

SO he (quote) makes crappy TV SETS but when he says something you agree with hes' suddenly a genius.
TALK ABOUT TWO FACED.
Doesnt matter what wang or anybody else says, as more and more have bad experiences with plasma and the word gets out, the fact that there is no reason to put up with one will become more and more apparent.