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Quality issues aside downloading will not be a viable alternative for some time.The big reason is download speeds are to slow.Here in Canada we are at about 7mbps and my American friends are at 1.9 mbps,while South Korea is at 45 mbps and Japan 61 mbps.Right now our infrastucture wont keep up if downloading was the main method of movie distribution.
bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
It would cut into the 360's price advantage only if Microsoft chooses to pass the unit cost increases along to consumers, which is why I presumed that it's cheaper to pay the studios to drop Blu-ray than to add HD-DVD support to the 360 (and also a lot cheaper than the costs that MS had to write off to fix the 360's motherboard problems). .
Well, it also goes back to the MS talking points. The 360 is a gaming machine. Those that want the ability to play HD-DVD need to pay for it. Plus if HD-DVD dies, MS is not on the hook for a player that supports a dead format only. As stated before MS has stated if HD-DVD ever dies, they are not against a blu-ray addon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Frankly I don't see anyone saying that "every PS3 has converted every user into a Blu-ray buyer" so I don't know where you've been reading that. But, no one looking at the market objectively denies that the PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base. .
There is the line I was looking for. "PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base." Yes, in absolute terms, PS3 has expanded the base for players. But the base has not translated directly into movie sales. There are plenty of PS3 users who are either unaware that the PS3 is either HD, or offers HD movie playback.
But, for every HD-DVD addon purchase, you can bet that people are buying HD-DVD's as there is no other purpose for buying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Up to this point, Blu-ray has been outmaneuvering HD-DVD for the past 9 months, so I don't know where you get this idea that "Sony" (Blu-ray is more than just Sony) got "caught flat footed AGAIN" (how can Blu-ray get caught flat footed "again" if they have consistently outsold, outreleased, and outpartnered HD-DVD since then?). This is really the first bit of good news for HD-DVD since that time, but no denying that it's a huge coup that could very well end any chance of Blu-ray winning the format war outright..
I was simply pointing out that in this round of fighting, MS has been more nimble, and free with the purse strings. Buying out Paramount is simply another example where MS has either gained an exclusive, or bought into a previously "exclusive" that Sony has had for its own. Sony has lost many more exclusives on the gaming side than MS has in the battle for HD gaming. I guess its not so much a slam on Blu-Ray, other than it appears that Sony seemed to be trying to wrap up the fight, and MS pulled the plans out from under them.
It seems like Sony has everything to lose, and MS can only go up.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
While I would agree that the quality is not that of the physical disc, your suggestion that it is 'vastly inferior' is no more accurate.
Well now we're engaged in a debate of opinion which will take us nowhere...some people would be just as offended as you were by my "vastly inferior" comment that MS is calling these "HD" at all.
I guess I have higher expectations for my HD videos and put too much value on the audio track then. Some people probably wouldn't notice at all, and for many, there will be little added benefit from the disk - I'll concede that.
Quote:
Perhaps you are right, in the future if pay per bit becomes prevelant. However, current pricing structures DO NOT support your theory.
Only if you assume everyone who would download HD movies already has a sufficient internet service package. I currently would not. There will be marginal costs for many associated with this. When I get my Xbox 360, I will definitley have to upgrade. My connection is sufficient now for our casual browsing/downloading needs...won't be if I want any kind of suitable connection for downloading large files. Dunno about your ISP's , but ours cap our DL capability after so many GB each month based on which service we have. The next level up costs me about $15/month. Speed goes up nominally. A lot of people are going to run into this, ISP's everywhere have similar price structures. Most people don't have the premium internet package.
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Unless you can find me that 1 person that gets Hi-Speed internet for the sole purpose of renting movies, your cost for internet is irrelevant. Because I HAVE broadband I am able to rent movies. But my broadband is not for the purpose of renting movies. No more than I bought my mini-van to rent movies at Blockbuster
.
Again with this? This logic only works if you assume everyone has suitable internet connections already. I don't and will need to spend more than I am right now as a result. For me, this added expense increase is 100% attributable to the resource demands downloading movies will impose. Not other internet functions. The first $20 or whatever (the level of service I have now) covers the other internet usuage. My decision to download movies will necessitate an added expense.
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And at $30 a pop, it only takes about 1 movie purchase per month of a physical disc to match the cost of a DSL connection
Well that's 12 fewer titles of superior audio and video quality I'll own each year!!! :D
Well, I guess if that's what people need to tell themselves to justify it.
My point wasn't really to argue the merits of DL vs discs, as much as my frustration that the industry has again denied all logic and forced me to choose between 2 compromised solutions because several major players continue to ignore the market's demands! (I know of very few people that wanted a format war at all) Grrrrr...
On the DL'ing subject...I wouldn't be surprised if the convenience aspect wins out over the quality aspect though. I could see both BluRay and HD-DVD dragging this on a long time while Microsoft gets more people used to the idea of downloading instead of buying tangible disks...enough so that people just give up on BluRay or HD-DVD altogether.
I'm just waiting for Apple to dive into this business too...iFlicks or somethings...(maybe they have it up and running already?).
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A lot of good comments posted so far ...
Fitting in with kex's scenario, I'm one of those consumers that had been sitting on the fence, and looking forward to going with Blu-ray sometime next year. But, obviously MS put an end to that plan. At this point, I'm not entirely sure what I'll do, and that's exactly the kind of thinking that MS is likely trying to create in the market. MS is HD-DVD's second biggest purported supporter, yet their actions boil down to impeding the market progress for HD optical media in general. Sure, they're trying to take a bigger piece of the pie away from Blu-ray, but ultimately they're also trying to limit how big the overall pie grows.
It's frustrating because Paramount's actions are clearly not market-driven, but rather totally financially driven. I can see how accepting an in-kind arrangement with MS would benefit Paramount and Dreamworks' bottom line. $150 million is petty cash to MS (Microsoft now claims that it's not a cash arrangement), but I would venture to guess that it's worth a lot more than the revenue that Paramount and Dreamworks would get from Blu-ray sales. They are entitled to make that decision, but it's also anti-consumer considering that this action does nothing more than constrict the market and Paramount had already announced several upcoming Blu-ray releases that they have now cancelled.
An underreported aspect of this Paramount/Dreamworks arrangement is that it will only last 18 months. After that time, Paramount is free to ramp up Blu-ray production again.
But, in the context of this format war, 18 months might be enough time for HD-DVD and Warner in particular to force the market into a dual format compromise of some kind. I don't like it, because it still leaves market confusion and any kind of dual format compromise means higher costs for consumers. Unfortunately, this also has long-term ramifications for both formats, as I think this seriously slows down market adoption for both HD optical discs in general.
Without this move, I seriously doubt that HD-DVD would have remained a viable format for 18 months. The whole market moving to Blu-ray I think would end any lingering confusion, more rapidly ramp up the market for HD optical discs, with lower costs for consumers in the long run. With HD-DVD in the mix as a viable minority format, this increases the likelihood of both formats failing. As I've said before, the real competition should be the DVD, and I doubt that retailers will be too happy with maintaining triple inventories indefinitely. If the HD disc market begins to plateau at any point, I can see retailers pulling back on their orders and letting the Blu-ray and HD-DVD sections languish, which leaves consumers stuck with 480p DVDs much like SACD/DVD-A's failure leaves music fans stuck with two-channel 44.1/16 CDs.
As far as HD downloads go, I think it's a nonfactor so long as these downloads have time and/or view limits. If these downloads could reside on one's hard drive with no time or view limits, then I would see them as viable competition for HD optical media. But, with these restrictions in place, they are not yet viable replacements for disc purchases, but rather a lateral move away from rentals and PPV.
Plus, aside from these HD downloads (at least with the Xbox service) coming with only 720p resolution, I'm also curious as to how they handle the audio. Are we talking about 448k Dolby Digital? Or the lower resolution (and noticeably inferior) 384k Dolby Digital, which is what you get with HDTV broadcasts? And is there any kind of DTS option? Either way, I doubt that these video downloads will come with lossless audio. The mass market might not care, but it's yet another way that HD downloads might wind up taking a step back.
Microsoft is obviously trying to grease the tracks for HD downloading, but that market has a lot of other players waiting in the wings. Depending on how the market plays out, Microsoft might be doing nothing more than the dirty work for other players like Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Directv, Dish, and Apple who all likely have their own HD PPV/downloading plans.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I was simply pointing out that in this round of fighting, MS has been more nimble, and free with the purse strings. Buying out Paramount is simply another example where MS has either gained an exclusive, or bought into a previously "exclusive" that Sony has had for its own. Sony has lost many more exclusives on the gaming side than MS has in the battle for HD gaming. I guess its not so much a slam on Blu-Ray, other than it appears that Sony seemed to be trying to wrap up the fight, and MS pulled the plans out from under them.
It seems like Sony has everything to lose, and MS can only go up.
Again, you're singling out Sony, when Blu-ray is more than just Sony. Also, Paramount was not an "exclusive" rather they were the only truly neutral major studio (Warner is purportedly neutral, but they've got financial stakes and patents in the DVD, HD-DVD, and TotalHD formats).
The anti-consumer aspect of this action is that Paramount is taking away an option that consumers previously had, and cancelling disc releases that they had previously announced. It's very different than Universal or any of the other "exclusive" studios going neutral, because that would entail expanding market options and have more market-driven justification. At this point, Paramount's move is not market-driven at all, since it entails them purposely taking a payout in order to reduce their product sales. (This happens in other industries as well, and hardly ever to the benefit of consumers)
Like I said, brilliant and very self-serving move on MS' part. Despite the market shift, Blu-ray still has the upper hand, and will likely maintain a market share lead, but they no longer have a sense of inevitability. A lot of things have yet to play out, and everything's setting up for a very interesting holiday season.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Again, you're singling out Sony, when Blu-ray is more than just Sony. Also, Paramount was not an "exclusive" rather they were the only truly neutral major studio (Warner is purportedly neutral, but they've got financial stakes and patents in the DVD, HD-DVD, and TotalHD formats).
Like I said, brilliant and very self-serving move on MS' part. Despite the market shift, Blu-ray still has the upper hand, and will likely maintain a market share lead, but they no longer have a sense of inevitability. A lot of things have yet to play out, and everything's setting up for a very interesting holiday season.
Well, on this board there are those that seperate the Blu-Ray/ Sony segments apart. Travel on over to some of the more gamer oriented sites and they are all wetting themselves either from frustration (Sony) or joy (MS). Like it or not, PS3/Sony has tied themselves together pretty tight with the whole game/HD Blu-Ray movie player theme. So naturally the (Sony) Blu-Ray crowd is none to happy to have gotten the news.
The sense of inevitablity that Sony has had for years is no longer around. That was the point I was making.
And yes, this holiday is going to be brutal. I predict at least one more price cut from both Sony, and MS if things dont pick up. Considering that Sony's 'Price Cut' is simply inventory reduction (after the 60 gig units are out, 80 gig are still $599, and no more 20 gig), they may have to reduce prices still.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
But an HD-DVD player cost less than a BR player. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but my first impression was that this would make the bigger difference.
I think that Blu-ray could afford to sit on a price premium because of their superior studio support. But, with Paramount dropping Blu-ray, the justification for Blu-ray players costing upwards of ~$200 more than HD-DVD players has waned considerably.
Of course, one potential reason why HD-DVD players have been so cheap is because Toshiba reportedly was taking a loss on each player sold in order to maintain market share. With the studio support now less of a disadvantage to HD-DVD, will Toshiba continue to drive hardware prices down as loss leaders? Or will they stay at the current price points for the time being and wait for the Blu-ray price drops to catch up? Blu-ray player prices were already projected to drop down to around $300 by the end of the year (current list prices are around $500), and Paramount's action very well could force the price drops to accelerate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Again with this? This logic only works if you assume everyone has suitable internet connections already. I don't and will need to spend more than I am right now as a result. For me, this added expense increase is 100% attributable to the resource demands downloading movies will impose. Not other internet functions. The first $20 or whatever (the level of service I have now) covers the other internet usuage. My decision to download movies will necessitate an added expense.
On the DL'ing subject...I wouldn't be surprised if the convenience aspect wins out over the quality aspect though. I could see both BluRay and HD-DVD dragging this on a long time while Microsoft gets more people used to the idea of downloading instead of buying tangible disks...enough so that people just give up on BluRay or HD-DVD altogether.
I'm just waiting for Apple to dive into this business too...iFlicks or somethings...(maybe they have it up and running already?).
Ok, I will agree that if you need to upgrade your connection then perhaps you should consider the cost. However, I would venture to guess that after upgrade you would be willing to downgrade service if you were unhappy with the movies you d/l. After all, why have anything but dial-up if you are never going to get movies? The point is, perhaps you will need to upgrade. But after that, you are still going to use the internet for other things.
And Apple is getting into the IPTV business as well. They have it paired to their Itunes network, and frankly its getting its ass handed to it by MS. The 360 is much more user friendly, and intuitive to use. It doesn't require any special adapters other than what a user needs to set it up to play games. Once you are set up to game, your set up to d/l movies, TV shows, music videos and the like. With the Apple system, it is going to sit on your TV until you are specifically ready to utilize the service. And at $299 excluding cables you might as well spend the $50 extra and get a gaming machine to boot.
Currently MS is the nations largest provider of downloadable HD content, and it is being added to constantly. Companies are pretty confident of the security, and the abiltiy to lock content after a time period as well. Unless you are an Uberhacker, I don't think there is anyway to strip the content off the HD and use it later.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
This would be my first dip into the whole gaming thing. I know nothing about who has the best games, other than hearing that Wii is top of that class. But I do know what I like. Who has the better racing games of the two?
I'm sorry, but the Wii is crap. Its strictly SD, with no DVD support. The graphics are dated, and with the lowest price of the 360 at $279, the $249 Wii is no bargin.
What kind of racing games do you like? Arcade or realistic? Forza 2 is really hot for the 360, as well as Colin McRea (DIRt). I have Dirt, and it's pretty cool. The first time I went off the track, and my windshield exploded all over my co-pilot I about crapped my pants. This was after I buried my front end in a tree at about 60 mph on dirt.
The buggy races are cool, but online is time trials, and kinda sucks actually.
Project Gotham Racing is also a pretty good game, but I haven't played it. Stay away from the Need for Speed series unless your strictly arcade.
Forza, and Dirt can get technical if you are a gearhead, and like to play with suspensions, gear ratios, and other details. I just use stock ratios, but you can really spend some time if you are into it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
I think that Blu-ray could afford to sit on a price premium because of their superior studio support. But, with Paramount dropping Blu-ray, the justification for Blu-ray players costing upwards of ~$200 more than HD-DVD players has waned considerably.
Of course, one potential reason why HD-DVD players have been so cheap is because Toshiba reportedly was taking a loss on each player sold in order to maintain market share. With the studio support now less of a disadvantage to HD-DVD, will Toshiba continue to drive hardware prices down as loss leaders? Or will they stay at the current price points for the time being and wait for the Blu-ray price drops to catch up? Blu-ray player prices were already projected to drop down to around $300 by the end of the year (current list prices are around $500), and Paramount's action very well could force the price drops to accelerate.
I have two HT rooms with projectors. I was trying to hedge my bets by putting one gamer in the living room (with an HD player of one kind) and then a stand alone player (of the other format) in the bedroom. Picking out which room gets what format is what's on my table.
Is it better to go with a PS3 in the living room and HD-DVD in the bedroom?
Or is an Xbox with HD-DVD add on in the living room, and a stand alone BR in the bedroom a better way to go?
I was leaning to choice number one because it seems that this combination costs a little less.
Games and ease of use should be determining factors but I don't know which games are "better" or which units are easier to operate.
A plus for choice number two would be that if BR wins out in the end, I may be able to add another BR to the Xbox to replace the HD-DVD add on unit.
Maybe a couple more months will bring the picture into focus better. But, it could become as clear as mudd, as you can see from current events.
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Wow, this thread is so...so....so.....
EPIC!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Well, on this board there are those that seperate the Blu-Ray/ Sony segments apart. Travel on over to some of the more gamer oriented sites and they are all wetting themselves either from frustration (Sony) or joy (MS). Like it or not, PS3/Sony has tied themselves together pretty tight with the whole game/HD Blu-Ray movie player theme. So naturally the (Sony) Blu-Ray crowd is none to happy to have gotten the news.
The sense of inevitablity that Sony has had for years is no longer around. That was the point I was making.
It's not just the "Blu-ray crowd" that's frustrated. As kex pointed out, it's also consumers (like myself) who've been waiting for the dust to settle so that we can put our money on one format and get on with things. All that was left for that to happen was Universal going neutral. But, this decision by Paramount puts the wet blanket on a lot of potential purchases.
From the beginning, I've said that I did not care which format won so long as one format did win, and win decisively, and win quickly. The longer that any format war drags on, the greater the possibility that we wind up stuck with choosing between lower resolution DVDs and HD downloads that are compromised in other ways (time/play restrictions, 720p, low res audio, etc.). And the possibility of both formats failing increases the longer that the format war continues to drag down the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
And yes, this holiday is going to be brutal. I predict at least one more price cut from both Sony, and MS if things dont pick up. Considering that Sony's 'Price Cut' is simply inventory reduction (after the 60 gig units are out, 80 gig are still $599, and no more 20 gig), they may have to reduce prices still.
I doubt that the PS3 prices will tumble below $400, but I can easily see the Blu-ray player prices going below $300 (some analysts have already projected this). As I pointed out to GM, the player prices could wind up equalizing somewhat because this Paramount deal has bought HD-DVD some extra time, and Toshiba no longer has the desperate incentive to slash hardware prices below cost to prop up their market share. In the meantime, Blu-ray player makers now have extra incentive to reduce hardware prices. Blu-ray already had things on tap for the holiday season to try and deliver a knockout punch on HD-DVD. Obviously, the knockout won't happen, but the Blu-ray Association is reportedly going to augment their holiday marketing campaign. Just yesterday, Fox responded by announcing a large release slate through the end of the year (after not announcing any new Blu-ray titles since March), and Disney is reportedly teaming up with Panasonic to launch their widely-anticipated Platinum series Blu-ray titles.
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It looks like both sides still have lots of tricks up their sleeves and this could get ugly before it ends, if it ends. Maybe pixelthis will be a casualty of this war.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I'm sorry, but the Wii is crap. Its strictly SD, with no DVD support. The graphics are dated, and with the lowest price of the 360 at $279, the $249 Wii is no bargin.
I only know that they sell more. But I have seen people say that although they are SD, that they have the "best" games that have the "most" fun. Don't worry, HD is a priority for me. Wii is out of the running no matter what the numbers say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
What kind of racing games do you like? Arcade or realistic? Forza 2 is really hot for the 360, as well as Colin McRea (DIRt). I have Dirt, and it's pretty cool. The first time I went off the track, and my windshield exploded all over my co-pilot I about crapped my pants. This was after I buried my front end in a tree at about 60 mph on dirt.
The buggy races are cool, but online is time trials, and kinda sucks actually.
Project Gotham Racing is also a pretty good game, but I haven't played it. Stay away from the Need for Speed series unless your strictly arcade.
Forza, and Dirt can get technical if you are a gearhead, and like to play with suspensions, gear ratios, and other details. I just use stock ratios, but you can really spend some time if you are into it.
I like them to be as realistic as possible. If I had my way, they'd have flight simulators for me to sit in so I could feel every bump. I'd like to be able to have the car skid around a right hand turn so much that I'd have to look left to see where I'm going. I'd like to smell the fuel and the burnt oil. They can keep the dust though.
Sounds like there is no shortage of driving games to choose from. Something that reacts as close to the real thing as possible would be great. I might enjoy the picking out of gearhead equipment, but the real joy is in the driving fast as h.ll without getting a ticket.
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GM, the most realistic games in my opinion are PC games. I was never a fan of XBOX, PS and whathaveyou because I just think they've got too much of a juvenile look and feel. I don't know if there's a NASCAR game for consoles, but the PC version is spectacular. I've just about finished putting a new PC together; maybe I'll start an Off Topic thread with it's specs, and I can't wait to get back into gaming. While I realize these consoles may/will have dual functionality, I just don't find anything mind-blowing about them. JMO though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
I like them to be as realistic as possible. If I had my way, they'd have flight simulators for me to sit in so I could feel every bump. I'd like to be able to have the car skid around a right hand turn so much that I'd have to look left to see where I'm going. I'd like to smell the fuel and the burnt oil. They can keep the dust though.
Sounds like there is no shortage of driving games to choose from. Something that reacts as close to the real thing as possible would be great. I might enjoy the picking out of gearhead equipment, but the real joy is in the driving fast as h.ll without getting a ticket.
Well if money is no object get your ear on the phone and dial this outfit out. You really cant get more realistic without the car than this for your 360!!
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/costs-mor...ity-269325.php
Or perhaps this setup would better fit your budget:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/someone-h...tup-263810.php
You may want to see if some video stores in your area rent machines (PS3, 360) and try them out for a week.
Also, if you like realistic the PS3 flagship racing game Gran Tourismo is long on pretty, short on realistic. Apparently they cant show damage modeling on the cars, (something to do with mfgs of the car not wanting damage...I'm not making this up). So if you hit a wall at 175mph, you just bounce.
The 360 doesn't have the same damage constraints as the PS3 for some reason. I find it a bit more realistic in that fashion.
Forza 2...hit a wall at 175, you'll be ejected as your car splinters around you. Same with DIRt. Check out the video here:
http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-...lay-Trailer-2/
Its impressive in the box, but if you d/l and watch full screen its even better. Then imagine with surround sound. If you are in car, you can hear the rocks hitting the undercarrige.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
GM, the most realistic games in my opinion are PC games. I was never a fan of XBOX, PS and whathaveyou because I just think they've got too much of a juvenile look and feel. I don't know if there's a NASCAR game for consoles, but the PC version is spectacular. I've just about finished putting a new PC together; maybe I'll start an Off Topic thread with it's specs, and I can't wait to get back into gaming. While I realize these consoles may/will have dual functionality, I just don't find anything mind-blowing about them. JMO though.
2 years ago I would have agreed with you. But you really ought to check out the new console racers. Some are pretty arcade like with limited damage, and wonky physics. However, there are several now on the market that have very good damage modeling, and the physics are as good as a PC. Plus with the MS wheel, you get force feedback, and shifting capabilities via paddles on the wheel. Check out my above post for some UBER racing setups, and you will be suprised.
The capabilites of the consoles now would require a multi thousand PC to equal the graphics output for a fraction of the cost.
I don't think the NASCAR is good for the console though. EA has pretty much ruined the feel. Papyrus was and will be the best even though they haven't made a game in years. It's still pretty much the gold standard for NASCAR
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The MS deal is only for 18 months, do you all think this being temporary, possibily, makes any difference?
I for one have not downloaded music and I won't DL movies either, it's a royal pain in the butt.
I wonder if Onkyo's new HD-DVD player will still be out at the price of $899.00 and in light of current events, I wonder if Denon's BR players will still hit at $1 & 2k.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
The MS deal is only for 18 months, do you all think this being temporary, possibily, makes any difference?
I for one have not downloaded music and I won't DL movies either, it's a royal pain in the butt.
Supposedly, there are a lot of exemptions and loopholes that Paramount can use if they choose to do so, and this agreement specifically exempts Steven Spielberg (who is on record as a Blu-ray supporter, and has prohibited Universal from releasing any of his movies on HD-DVD only), so titles like Saving Private Ryan and War of the Worlds might still come out on Blu-ray.
As for the difference that 18 months makes, I think a lot in this market can change in 18 months and 18 months is definitely long enough for HD-DVD to force Blu-ray into a dual format compromise (or for Blu-ray to maintain its market lead). Right now, Warner's holding a lot of the cards, and they've been trying to steer the market towards dual format support. The current situation gives them a lot of leverage particularly with the Blu-ray Association, because if they drop Blu-ray, they would basically force the market into an impasse.
This Paramount deal basically ensures that HD-DVD will survive another 18 months, but what happens thereafter is anyone's guess. I think that without Paramount going HD-DVD exclusive, that format would have been a goner inside of 18 months.
I used to think that HD downloads were the wave of the future, but if the tight time and use restrictions on Xbox Live HD downloads are typical of how these HD downloading services will work, then it will have minimal impact, except with rentals and PPV. Just think of all the pissed off parents who'd have to pay yet another fee when their kids want to watch Finding Nemo for the 30th time! Downloads won't compete in the same space as disc media unless they have no time and viewing limits.
But, I gotta disagree that downloading will be a pain. Except for the downloading time, it's not much different than using a DVR, and once you get a set-top box configured for your internet connection, it should actually be simpler than using a PC application. The only drawback is that with most household broadband speeds, it's far from "on demand" and in a society of instant gratification, waiting one to four hours for a file to download before being able to watch a movie might be enough to keep HD downloading from taking over the market. And even then, users are still constricted by their drive space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I wonder if Onkyo's new HD-DVD player will still be out at the price of $899.00 and in light of current events, I wonder if Denon's BR players will still hit at $1 & 2k.
Considering that Toshiba's still selling an $800 HD-DVD player model, Onkyo's player would not be too far out of line pricewise if it has some compelling features or performance improvements. It would not surprise me if Denon sticks with that price structure for their Blu-ray players, considering that models from the mass market models from the likes of Sony and Philips are only now hitting the $500 list price. How long Denon will keep those players at that price I think is the real question. Five years ago, Denon only had one DVD player model that sold for less than $800, and even now, their two flagship models still sell for more than $1,000. So, there is room in the market for higher end Blu-ray players (that is the market can grow fast enough to support a wider variety of models and price points).
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Here is the breakdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
So what are the 4 rooms that you have it set up in and do you have them all connected to TV's or just the one?
I have a refurbished D2(same as A2) model downstairs in the "main" high wattage setup I talked about previously that is connected to my 65" 1080i Hitachi CRT RPTV. In my living room I am running my original A1 with a 52" CRT RPTV from GE and I'm using 5.1 analog outputs.. Currently in my bedroom I have a refurbished A1 running in a 5.1 setup via analog outputs connect to a 50" RCA Scenium DLP 720p TV.
My 4th HD-DVD player I haven't set up yet. It is the A20 and I plan on using it with my Sanyo PLV-Z5 LCD projector also downstairs with all the other gear. Yes it is overkill but it wil be a lot of fun.
BTW, 2 of the players, the refurbished ones, were only about $200 at Tigerdirect.com.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drseid
Personally I am elated at the news.
While I am just as disatisfied as most that there is a format war in the first place, with HD DVD players coming down in price all of the time, I think this creates a very *good* market for the consumer.
This announcement is gargantuan, and changes the dynamic entirely. I will not predict an HD DVD win, but I would say this announcement actually now gives HD DVD the upper hand in "the war" with an eventual dual-format player result highly likely. I believe this due to the large price differential between the cost of the two formats' respective players, coupled with the recent seeming destruction of the lame combo HD DVD/DVD discs that put HD DVD at a price disadvantage on the software side. With these two developments in hand, HD DVD is well poised to start attracting the average joe at the store. I also believe retailers will have to start to create more shelf space for HD DVD titles and players... It is happy days in the HD DVD camp indeed!
All of the above said, I too was shocked at Paramount's decision. Apart from the already speculated financial arrangement, I too see no reason why they would do this... I guess HD DVD put up some cash, but it may have been the best investment they could have made for long-term survival.
So PixelThis... Still making predictions of HD DVD's immenent demise? :-) Like I have said previously, I believe both formats can survive long-term, and there will be no "winner" (except the consumer). It is still too early to make predictions with any real certanty.
---Dave
Be great if they could, but I doubt it.
Let me say that when I refer to "downloading" I am primarily reffering to video on demand, or VOD, movies over the net still have a ways to go.
Whenever there is a "win" in a battle its just that, a win in a battle, not the WAR.
And blu-ray still outsells HDDVD by a wide margin, and most are still favoring blu-ray.
And if Microsoft is behind this then they are effectively punching themselves in the face,
since Blu-ray is a much better medium for computers (more storage space)
Personally I perfer Blu-ray, technically its much better, however I also favored
beta-max, but predicted its demise, it was clear early on they wouldnt beat VHS.
One really has nothing to do with the other.
But I will not support either one just yet, in the area where it counts... financially.
This is because Microsoft came out with a great HD format, I even have a few movies
on it, however it committed the cardinal sin, you didn't need a new player for it, just a
decent computer. Dedicated players would have been cheap. But nobodsy went for it because they want to sell players, and HT types want a new "toy".
So when one of these crashes and burns and dies a stinking death I will then (maybe)
jump on board and get a player, and begin the much more expensive task of upgrading my collection (the BIRDS, blues brothers, chasing amy, body heat, indiana jones collection, cinema paradiso, halloween)
Maybe by then these classics, as well as a few others will be out in that format
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
And why exactly (besides exaggeration) do you have 4 HD-DVD players???
I wouldn't put it past him PS. Remember this:
http://forums.audioreview.com/home-theater-video/pictures-my-home-theater-8-behringer-ep2500s-22029.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Well if money is no object get your ear on the phone and dial this outfit out. You really cant get more realistic without the car than this for your 360!!
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/costs-mor...ity-269325.php
Or perhaps this setup would better fit your budget:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/someone-h...tup-263810.php
You may want to see if some video stores in your area rent machines (PS3, 360) and try them out for a week.
Also, if you like realistic the PS3 flagship racing game Gran Tourismo is long on pretty, short on realistic. Apparently they cant show damage modeling on the cars, (something to do with mfgs of the car not wanting damage...I'm not making this up). So if you hit a wall at 175mph, you just bounce.
The 360 doesn't have the same damage constraints as the PS3 for some reason. I find it a bit more realistic in that fashion.
Forza 2...hit a wall at 175, you'll be ejected as your car splinters around you. Same with DIRt. Check out the video here:
http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-...lay-Trailer-2/
Its impressive in the box, but if you d/l and watch full screen its even better. Then imagine with surround sound. If you are in car, you can hear the rocks hitting the undercarrige.
Unfortunately, money is an object. Thanks for the cool links though.
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Rip van Winkle
Wake me up when it's over :sleep: Since I'm working with a 27" CRT I find it hard to care (-- meanwhile my wife buys standard DVDs: what's the premium for HD anyway?)
I bought cassette vs. 8-track in circa 1970: won on that one. Oh yeah, I bought Beta back in '83: lost on that one. I'm holding off.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Unfortunately, money is an object. Thanks for the cool links though.
Well, if money is an object, head over here for a more modest injection of realism into your games:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x...ssracingwheel/
However, there are several other websites that sell it for a bit less. I think the one in BB actually comes with a free game...so thats a bonus. The Force Feedback is a nice feature, and lets you "feel" the rumble of the road. As a bonus, with an adapter it will work with any PC driving games you have as well.
'Wireless' is a bit misleading as well. The controller is 'wireless' from the console, but it does require an outlet to power the rumble and such.
BTW did you happen to check out the video?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
Well, if money is an object, head over here for a more modest injection of realism into your games:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x...ssracingwheel/
However, there are several other websites that sell it for a bit less. I think the one in BB actually comes with a free game...so thats a bonus. The Force Feedback is a nice feature, and lets you "feel" the rumble of the road. As a bonus, with an adapter it will work with any PC driving games you have as well.
'Wireless' is a bit misleading as well. The controller is 'wireless' from the console, but it does require an outlet to power the rumble and such.
BTW did you happen to check out the video?
Thanks, I'll poke around to see what's available.
No, can't view videos at work. No downloads aloud. I'll check it out at home later, if wifey gives up the computer for a minute.
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ahhhhh yes.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
How could I forget the 8X8 room with 4,000 watts of sheer noise.
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I check back in on that thread every once-in-a-while when I'm feeling like my cable routing is lacking...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I check back in on that thread every once-in-a-while when I'm feeling like my cable routing is lacking...
I shall now look back at this thread when I need a great laugh!
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The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.
One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.
One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.
On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.
It is sadly all about marketing.It does not matter if a product is good or not as long as people believe that it is.Example,Monster Cable,a poor quality product that people are willing to overpay for because they believe they are good quality.
bill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.
One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.
The latest shoe to drop is the Warner top exec who was in charge of the dual-format BD/HD DVD discs (I think they are calling it Total HD) just resigned. Some are now saying that this could be a signal that Warner is going to go exclusive to one format or the other... I personally have no idea if there is any validity to this, but if they *did* go exclusive, it would make sense that they would align themselves with HD DVD as they have in the past (and still favor to some extent). If this were to occur, then we really have a mess to sort out in this "war."... The soap opera continues...
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
2 years ago I would have agreed with you. But you really ought to check out the new console racers. Some are pretty arcade like with limited damage, and wonky physics. However, there are several now on the market that have very good damage modeling, and the physics are as good as a PC. Plus with the MS wheel, you get force feedback, and shifting capabilities via paddles on the wheel. Check out my above post for some UBER racing setups, and you will be suprised.
The capabilites of the consoles now would require a multi thousand PC to equal the graphics output for a fraction of the cost.
I don't think the NASCAR is good for the console though. EA has pretty much ruined the feel. Papyrus was and will be the best even though they haven't made a game in years. It's still pretty much the gold standard for NASCAR
I just finished putting together a gaming rig for a bit over $1K, and played the Bioshock demo last night. Sent chills up my spine with the incredible detail. What Doom 3 started this game has exploited to the max. I don't know about multi-thousand $$$ to get equal eye-candy but if you're talking about console games in hi def well... maybe maybe not. My nVidia graphics card and Acer widescreen LCD are HDCP compliant and I'm running at 1680 x 1050 native resolution. Total cost for those two was < $400.
You can play NASCAR with a force-feedback wheel and peddal controller too on a PC, and no, I didn't know EA took the game over (I lost interest in NASCAR after Dale died).
Anyway, I don't want to start a PC/Console debate, but yeah, I haven't sat in front of an XBOX or PS in about two years, so...
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I did see that was the rumor that Nickerson was stepping down, has it been confirmed? He was an outspoken proponent for HD-DVD. The dual format that WB proposed was delayed and now this. If WB decides to only support one format that would definitely tip the scales which ever way they go. If it's HD-DVD I think the war will just rage on without a decisive winner and the HD formats may become just a nitch. Because I think Sony, Fox & Disney by themselves could support BR. Warner with Paramount & Universal should certainly be able to support HD-DVD. Will anyone join Toshiba and Onkyo with new HD-DVD hardware...... If Warner goes Blu-ray it could put HD--DVD back on death roll.
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Isn't 300 WB? Of course, selling more titles didn't mean anything to Paramount's decision.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.
I think it's almost all about marketing at this point. Any significant improvements to either format will likely create backwards compatibility issues (e.g., the eight-layer 200 GB Blu-ray disc format that TDK recently demonstrated and Toshiba's three-layer 45 GB HD-DVD disc likely won't play on existing units), and even Blu-ray's long-planned BD-Java implementation (which all Blu-ray players sold after October must include) will result in some added features not working on current players. Given that both formats use the MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 video codecs and the same processing chips are used in players for both formats, it's no longer about R&D but more about better execution and incremental improvements. And aside from maybe making better use of Blu-ray's larger disc capacity, I don't see either format with an advantage in that regard.
Blu-ray still has the upper hand, but they are no longer positioned to deliver a knockout blow. They very well might still win the format war, but the additional time required to beat out HD-DVD might be enough to relegate both formats to niche status.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drseid
The latest shoe to drop is the Warner top exec who was in charge of the dual-format BD/HD DVD discs (I think they are calling it Total HD) just resigned. Some are now saying that this could be a signal that Warner is going to go exclusive to one format or the other... I personally have no idea if there is any validity to this, but if they *did* go exclusive, it would make sense that they would align themselves with HD DVD as they have in the past (and still favor to some extent). If this were to occur, then we really have a mess to sort out in this "war."... The soap opera continues...
And earlier, one of Universal's biggest HD-DVD proponents got forced out as well, yet Universal's still HD-DVD exclusive. Steve Nickerson of Warner was supposedly a huge HD-DVD backer, but also one of the people who spearheaded the TotalHD disc format. No telling how to read this latest move, but I would say that it potentially puts Warner closer to the HD-DVD camp, since Nickerson was pushing more for a dual format strategy.
I don't see Warner going Blu-ray exclusive unless everyone else does. They still have patents on the DVD (and by extension HD-DVD) and the TotalHD formats, so ironically they have better financial incentive than anyone to go more actively support HD-DVD. They originally planned to have TotalHD on the market by now, but pushed it back to early next year (presumably to see if HD-DVD makes it through the holiday season with some market share intact). From a purely financial point of view, Warner stands to make a lot if the other studios adopt the TotalHD hybrid format.
But, like Paramount and Dreamworks, they could also be enticed by another bribe from Microsoft, since the revenues they potentially receive from Blu-ray disc sales in the next 18 months will likely pale in comparison to what Microsoft's deep pockets can provide. Supposedly, the $150 million that Microsoft paid Paramount and Dreamworks is worth more than the sales to date from all HD optical discs combined.
Just for perspective, 300 just became the biggest selling HD disc in either format, with a combined 250,000 in sales the first week (prior to that, The Departed was the best selling HD disc, with sales of less than 150,000 units). With a wholesale unit cost of ~$20 (that's purely my own assumption), that works out to a grand total of $5 million in revenue for best selling HD disc. Until the market for HD discs grows to a serious share of the overall home video market, studios will remain easily swayed to trade the long-term need to grow the HD disc market for short-term bucks that likely outweigh the HD disc revenues in the meantime.
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This whole thing just stinks...
I am beginning to get tired of the whole format debacle. For one, I am trying to wait patiently and see what develops, but it looks like both sides are just ousting one another here and there and no one is really coming forth the victor. It's really a marketing battle at this point and there seems to be little end in sight at this point. More importantly it's not really generating a whole lot of confidence either because if one format does win, than a lot of people from the losing side are going to be ticked off for supporting the loser, wasting money, etc etc. If (and I do mean a big IF) there is some sort of compromise hybrid format that emerges it will take forever for that to happen and we will go through years of waiting while upgrades take place in both hardware and software, also meaning that some people will be left in the dust with certain limitations of their current gear. Lastly, there is just too much confusion over the various sound formats and sound compatibility with HDMI and Dolby TrueHD, as well as DTS plus receivers that are supporting those as well.
It would be different if the BETTER format emerged from this and some standards were issued in terms of compatibility, but at this point it's just a slugfest between both sides in marketing terms and we have 3 groups of people. First, are the tech people who want the latest and greatest and they are adopting these formats with caution, but at least they are making the moves to help get the ball rolling. Then there are the middle ground people who are waiting for things to get ironed out. Lastly we have the people who know nothing about the formats and are unaware of the progress or the differences between these formats.
Exposure-wise both formats have made a dent in the industry and I think at this point MOST consumers are at least aware of the words Blu-ray and HD-DVD. In my experience I have heard more people using the phrase "BLU-RAY" when it comes to the HD formats, while very little say HD-DVD, although I have heard a few people say that they thought that Blu-ray WAS the official name for High Definition DVD's, essentially they meant that HD-DVD was the technical term and Blu-ray was the street name.
I am leaning more towards Blu-ray as I have said in the past....I think the name and color alone will help push this format along. More people are attracted to blue than red and the name is easier to say and identify. I know it sounds backwards, but this is marketing 101, you need a product that sells with a catchy name and solid branding. Blu-ray has that nailed down.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman1999
It is sadly all about marketing.It does not matter if a product is good or not as long as people believe that it is.Example,Monster Cable,a poor quality product that people are willing to overpay for because they believe they are good quality.
bill
I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:
Ahhhh, I have missed these mindless ramblings...have you been on vacation?
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