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  1. #1
    nightflier
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    Outlaw to resell Onkyo pre/pro to buy time for their own?

    I just received this message from Outlaw:

    _________________________________
    Model 997 Update

    As many of you know, the Outlaws have been working with our design and manufacturing partners at Sherwood to jointly develop a single hardware/software platform that they will sell as the R-972 audio/video receiver while we create the exclusive processor-only version of the platform, our Model 997. The plan had been for the Model 997 to be ready for production approximately sixty days after the first mass production release of the R-972.

    There are a number of key hardware and software differences between the two products, so when you hear news of the Sherwood R-972's introduction, consider it a sign that the Model 997 is moving forward, but not the start of a precise "60 day countdown clock". Before production of the Model 997 starts we need to verify that the Outlaw-specific changes have been properly implemented. We'll ship it as soon as possible, but not until it meets our quality standards.

    Given a choice between an introduction date that is a bit later than we'd like, or having the Model 997 be less than perfect, we'll choose the delay. We will continue to provide periodic updates, but to be pragmatic we have to say that the first shipments of the Model 997 will probably not occur until late this year.

    [...blah blah blah. If you're way, way, wayyyy behind schedule, just admit it already. Long story short, no 997 before x-mas, folks!]

    With that in mind, we will continue to offer the Model 990 and Model 970 while inventory is available. Our current processors are great values, and remain so, but we know that some of you simply cannot wait for the Model 997. Therefore, for those who want a high-end processor TODAY, we are pleased to bring you some important news.


    The Onkyo Professional PR-SC886

    Through a special arrangement with our long time friends at Onkyo, we are pleased to announce that effective today, Outlaw Audio is an authorized internet-only outlet for the Onkyo Professional PR-SC886 surround processor. Anyone reading the forums knows that this product is highly regarded. Indeed, it has become the "I need something now" product of choice for those on the waiting list for a number of products. When we are asked to recommend a surround processor other than our own, this is definitely it.

    ["Friends at Onkyo"? That's interesting]

    The PR-SC886 is a world-class product with a unique package of features including THX Ultra-2 processing, ISFccc video calibration settings, Audyssey Multi-EQ, 3-Zone multi-room capability with both RS-232 and IP control, HD Radio, connectivity for both XM-Ready and Sirius-Ready antenna modules, four HDMI 1.3 inputs and two HDMI outputs, a phono input, and much, much more. The internal components are first rate, including dual TI DSPs, Burr-Brown DACs feeding balanced and single-ended audio outputs, as well as HQV Reon-VX video scaling and processing. As you would expect, the PR-SC886 has Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and DTS-HD Master Audio, and even Neural Surround for use with the satellite radio services.

    [Yes, aside from Trinnov, what does the Outlaw do that the Onkyo doesn't? And how much more fanciful will Trinnov be over Audyssey really? It begs the question, why even wait for the 997 at all?]

    To make a great product even better, the Outlaws have gone one step further. While its depth of features and incredible flexibility are part of the product's appeal, some of our in-home testers found it a bit overwhelming to configure. Recognizing that, we have developed "The Outlaws' Guide to the PR-SC886" to demystify the setup menus and make it easy for even the most techno-phobic member of the family to operate and enjoy this great product. Just as a similar Guide opened the Velodyne SMS-1 to a wider audience, this Outlaw-exclusive Guide is just one part of our commitment to helping our fellow Outlaws get the most out of their home theater experiences.

    Saving the best for last, here's the most exciting part of this news. Our everyday price for the PR-SC886 will be just $1,649. Despite the considerable discount from the list price, these are all brand new units with the latest software already installed.

    [Makes you wonder what the dealer price really is on the Onkyo, huh? I bet all those who paid $2K for it are feeling a little jilted.]

    Looking to save even more? Add one of our multichannel amplifiers, particularly our Model 7500, Model 7700 or Model 7900 with fully balanced inputs that perfectly match the PR-SC886's superb audio quality. We are offering special processor/amplifier combo prices that will let you blow the doors off your home theater without digging a hole in your budget. Click HERE to view the combo prices that save you up to $750 on a great sounding system.

    [Injecting a little Outlaw spam to save face?]

    In summary, as we continue to develop great new products for the balance of our tenth anniversary, we also want to make certain that you have a wide range of options. For those who want a great value on high performance audio products, there is no better deal on the market today than a Model 990 or a Model 970. For those who are anticipating a new Outlaw processor, stay tuned for additional news this fall. For those who want the certainty of something new before the leaves start to turn, we are pleased to present the PR-SC886 as an alternative. (After all, there is no better combination than two companies whose names begin with the letter "O"!)

    ["O"? That's precious.]

    No matter which option you choose for a new surround processor, at Outlaw Audio, "The best values in Home Theater are just a mouse click away.™"

    Best regards,
    The Outlaws
    _________________________________

    [So there you have it: more delays and band-aids. By the time Outlaw actually ships something, HDMI will probably be outdated. This isn't exactly the kind of market where missing another x-mas season is OK. People are moving on, and people have moved on. Outlaw selling the Onkyo is a sign that maybe they're moving on too. I'm guessing that if it actually does arrive, the 997 won't see the inside of a consumer's living room until 2nd quarter 2010. Heck why be so optimistic, let's just hope for x-mas 2010. But will Outlaw still be in business by then?]
    Last edited by nightflier; 08-27-2009 at 09:39 AM.

  2. #2
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    You know, creating a pre/pro that can handle all of the audio and video formats used today is not like making scrambled eggs. It is extremely difficult to do, and requires a great deal of software programming and testing. I actually commend them for taking their time and doing it right THE FIRST TIME. This is what Oppo did, and I received a product that was bug free. I could not say that about any of my HD-DVD players, which came buggy and required many firmware upgrades just to perform and interact normally with the disc.

    One thing I can tell you, the Onkyo PR-SC886 is a damn good sounding pre/pro but it is a complicated thing to set up. Once set up it performs beautifully and adds no sonic signature of its own to the original signal. Outlaw is hecka smart for creating alliance with other manufacturers. It will save them money in the long run, and can create patent and licensing revenue as well.

    I paid $1700 dollars for my Onkyo, not 2K.
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  3. #3
    nightflier
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    Yes, but by the time Outlaw does get to shipping their 997, many of their customers will have the Onkyo, or a competing product. In this market, missing another x-mas season can be fatal.

  4. #4
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Yes, but by the time Outlaw does get to shipping their 997, many of their customers will have the Onkyo, or a competing product. In this market, missing another x-mas season can be fatal.
    You are right my friend, but don't sell brand loyalty short. Some folks want a Outlaw component no matter who long it takes to come to market. They are willing to wait for the value and performance Outlaw brings to the market. Oppo is the same way. Both have fierce and patient fans, and no other line of products will satisfy them
    Sir Terrence

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  5. #5
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    I agree with you both...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You are right my friend, but don't sell brand loyalty short. Some folks want a Outlaw component no matter who long it takes to come to market. They are willing to wait for the value and performance Outlaw brings to the market. Oppo is the same way. Both have fierce and patient fans, and no other line of products will satisfy them
    Oppo's a good example but so's AMD. They've a fierce, loyal following, I know I am one. But you can only screw the pooch so many times. If AMD hadn't gotten at least in the same county as Intel with its latest Phenom II's they'd a been done as a company. Phenom I was late, lame a buggy. They did the right thing next time and didn't overhype the two's and delivered a "decent' product on time and in quantity, that's all I ask.

    Da Worfster

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    A lot of pre/pros are also experiencing lengthy delays...Outlaw is hardly the only one. I believe it was Cary that put out one of the first HDMI, fully BluRay techno-compatible pre-pros and have had nothing but bugs and bad publicity on the thing.

    Good for Outlaw for taking the time to work things out instead of trying to win a race. The product will have a shelf life of several years, and I bet many of the features in the platform will be carried over to subsequent models long after, so it's worth the extra time to get it done right now.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You know, creating a pre/pro that can handle all of the audio and video formats used today is not like making scrambled eggs. It is extremely difficult to do, and requires a great deal of software programming and testing. I actually commend them for taking their time and doing it right THE FIRST TIME. This is what Oppo did, and I received a product that was bug free. I could not say that about any of my HD-DVD players, which came buggy and required many firmware upgrades just to perform and interact normally with the disc.


    Of course, being a Toshiba product



    One thing I can tell you, the Onkyo PR-SC886 is a damn good sounding pre/pro but it is a complicated thing to set up. Once set up it performs beautifully and adds no sonic signature of its own to the original signal. Outlaw is hecka smart for creating alliance with other manufacturers. It will save them money in the long run, and can create patent and licensing revenue as well.

    I paid $1700 dollars for my Onkyo, not 2K.
    Thats about the right price.
    This is called canabalizing your customer base, probably to generate much needed short term cash flow, and is not very smart, because most of those customers wont be back.
    A payday loan, corporate style.
    Outlaw is not an audio company, but a marketing one, and their days are numbered.
    Pre-pros (and receivers in some respects) are getting too complicated for all but a
    few companies, its not like it used to be.
    The pre-pro universe is going to tighten somewhat.
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  8. #8
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Thats about the right price.
    This is called canabalizing your customer base, probably to generate much needed short term cash flow, and is not very smart, because most of those customers wont be back.
    A payday loan, corporate style.
    Outlaw is not an audio company, but a marketing one, and their days are numbered.
    Pre-pros (and receivers in some respects) are getting too complicated for all but a
    few companies, its not like it used to be.
    The pre-pro universe is going to tighten somewhat.
    What are you talking about Outlaw not being a audio company. Marketing companies market products, Outlaw designs and programs all of their chips, they design all of their players, bass management systems(when they had one), and their own amps. They have their own customer services, and design department unlike Vizio which contracts ALL of the services out. So if Outlaw is not an audio company, then Vizio sure in the heck is not an electronic manufacturer or a television designer. They are truely a marketing company.

    Man...you really do not know what you are talking about.
    Sir Terrence

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  9. #9
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    What are you talking about Outlaw not being a audio company. Marketing companies market products, Outlaw designs and programs all of their chips, they design all of their players, bass management systems(when they had one), and their own amps. They have their own customer services, and design department unlike Vizio which contracts ALL of the services out. So if Outlaw is not an audio company, then Vizio sure in the heck is not an electronic manufacturer or a television designer. They are truely a marketing company.

    Man...you really do not know what you are talking about.

    Yeah, an audio company that doesnt even have the resources to make their own
    pre-amp, need to team with SHERWOOD.
    ATI used to make their amps, dont know who does now.
    Outlaw has always sold "value" versions of other companies gear, they are a
    MARKETING concern, geared towards audiophile cheapskates.
    When their last "flagship" pre-pro came out already obsolete with DVI inputs on the
    video switching they didnt even have the resources to change it, thats why sales
    have steadily tanked, while they brag about it on their website, knowing good and well its
    video section is obsolete.
    And now, because of the current unpleasantness they cant even bring their new pre-pro
    sherwood clone (a Sherwood receiver without the amps) to market.
    They are a marketing concern, running on a shoestring, and as usual you are totally
    clueless.
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  10. #10
    nightflier
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    Well I wouldn't use such strong language, but pixie has a point about DVI. Back when they came out with the 970 & 990, they tried to pass this off as somehow better and more stable than HDMI. Fact is it was outdated technology when it finally came out and now they are risking the same marketing snafu with all these delays on their 997.

    Personally, I've moved on to the McCormack and I can definitely confirm that the sound difference between it and the 970 is strikingly better. Don't get me wrong, for $299, the 997 is still a steal (even w/o HDMI), but at a slightly higher price-point there's much better to be had. Yes, I've given up video switching, but with only one source, that doesn't concern me too much and I am now much closer to having the HT system I've been wanting. There's still some work to be done, but I've been extremely happy so far. I'm afraid Outlaw has lost me as a customer.

  11. #11
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Yeah, an audio company that doesnt even have the resources to make their own
    pre-amp, need to team with SHERWOOD.
    Because of development costs manufacturers do team up in creating joint platforms with often different software programming driving the hardware. Outlaw and Sherwood are small manufacturers, and spreading the risk often means life and death for them. That does not make them any less a manufacturer than Sony or Panasonic. It just makes them less able to support losses that stem from development delays, much like what we see here.

    ATI used to make their amps, dont know who does now.
    Outlaw has always sold "value" versions of other companies gear, they are a
    MARKETING concern, geared towards audiophile cheapskates.
    Not true, but par for the course for you with you dumb down explainations. A lot of Outlaws products were designed in partnership with other manufacturers, but they have products that are designed and manufacturer purely by Outlaw. That cannot be said for Vizio which truely is a marketing concern. They do not make the panels on any of their televisions. They do not design the software that processes either the video or the sound, somebody else does that. Even basic things such as customer service is farmed out to others. As a matter of fact Vizio does not even have a design staff, but Outlaw does.

    When their last "flagship" pre-pro came out already obsolete with DVI inputs on the
    video switching they didnt even have the resources to change it, thats why sales
    have steadily tanked, while they brag about it on their website, knowing good and well its
    video section is obsolete.
    That processor was created in 2004 when HDMI transmitters were not in huge supply. Only the major electronic manufacturers(the Japanese specifically) could get their hands on them, and many of them had to resort to DVI (Hitachi comes to mind) because of the shortage. By the time they could get a hold of HDMI transmitters, two other another technologies were already in the works (that would be HD-DVD and Blu-ray). Why include HDMI transmitters in a product that was going to be made obsolete by these two formats. It didn't support the new audio codecs, and it couldn't pass AVC or VC-1 or do any upconversion or video processing. The processor also didn't have the necessary horse power to handle the HDMI protocol, so a new processor would have to be designed and incorporated into a finished design. Not an easy thing to do, and certainly not for a small audio manufacturer with limited resources. So why add something to a product (which would have increased costs) on a pre-pro that was basically going to be left in the dust by other manufacturers products?

    And now, because of the current unpleasantness they cant even bring their new pre-pro
    sherwood clone (a Sherwood receiver without the amps) to market.
    They are a marketing concern, running on a shoestring, and as usual you are totally
    clueless.
    I cannot believe how much detail you tend to leave out of your naive, ignorant, uneducated explainations of all things audio. I understand however this is the best you can do with what you have (which ain't all that much).

    If it were nothing more than a clone product, all outlaw would need is to stuff it in a box and slap their badge on it. Their pre-pro will have capabilities the Sherwood receiver doesn't have, that is why they are having problems. It may have some software and hardware similarities, but you can bet your false teeth the it will have some upgrades that differentiate it from the Sherwood It will likely have upgraded parts, and different software programming. Neither of these is easy to incorporate in a single hardware design which must serve different purposes and different consumer market segments.

    I do not know a single manufacturer who has created a new pre-pro that can handle the new audio and video formats that didn't incur delays while in production - not a single one. They require so much more processing horse power than previous designs, and need to handle to audio and video so differently than previous designs it is almost requires a ground up approach. It almost requires a completely re-tooling of your manufacturing process, something a company the size of Outlaw just does not have the capital outlay to do. It requires much more complex programming of the SOC which are already more expensive than before, requires a more knowledgeable programmer, and thereby a more expensive one. This is why the specialty manufacturers are basically late to the party. The huge electronic conglomerates have the capital, and the in house programmers and designers to easily make changes, and adopt to new products entering the market.

    Outlaw is a small manufacturer and designer of products, but they are certainly not just a marketing company like your coveted Vizio.
    Sir Terrence

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  12. #12
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Because of development costs manufacturers do team up in creating joint platforms with often different software programming driving the hardware. Outlaw and Sherwood are small manufacturers, and spreading the risk often means life and death for them. That does not make them any less a manufacturer than Sony or Panasonic. It just makes them less able to support losses that stem from development delays, much like what we see here.
    Outlaw isnt a "manufactuer " at all, just rebadge others stuff, thats why they couldnt update
    their 970 prepro, they just got the outlaw versions from the manufacturer that made them.
    outlaw picks out what they want to sell and makes deals for a rebadged version,
    and thats all they do


    Not true, but par for the course for you with you dumb down explainations. A lot of Outlaws products were designed in partnership with other manufacturers, but they have products that are designed and manufacturer purely by Outlaw. That cannot be said for Vizio which truely is a marketing concern. They do not make the panels on any of their televisions. They do not design the software that processes either the video or the sound, somebody else does that. Even basic things such as customer service is farmed out to others. As a matter of fact Vizio does not even have a design staff, but Outlaw does.
    AS usual you have it backwards.
    Vizio designs sets and uses oem parts, and they are assembled by contractors, but they are of Vizio design.
    OUTLAW designs nothing, JUST REBADGES entire products made by other
    manufacturers, the idea is at a cheaper price, but that has turned out not to be the case,
    so there is really no reason for them to be around anymore, really.



    That processor was created in 2004 when HDMI transmitters were not in huge supply. Only the major electronic manufacturers(the Japanese specifically) could get their hands on them, and many of them had to resort to DVI (Hitachi comes to mind) because of the shortage. By the time they could get a hold of HDMI transmitters, two other another technologies were already in the works (that would be HD-DVD and Blu-ray). Why include HDMI transmitters in a product that was going to be made obsolete by these two formats. It didn't support the new audio codecs, and it couldn't pass AVC or VC-1 or do any upconversion or video processing. The processor also didn't have the necessary horse power to handle the HDMI protocol, so a new processor would have to be designed and incorporated into a finished design. Not an easy thing to do, and certainly not for a small audio manufacturer with limited resources. So why add something to a product (which would have increased costs) on a pre-pro that was basically going to be left in the dust by other manufacturers products?
    Again, they are not a "manufacturer", they sell rebadged stuff, and probably had to keep selling their pre-pro because of contractual obligations.
    If they "manufactured" anything they could have come out with a new prepro,
    would have been cheaper than the huge loss in sales they suffered from offering an obsolete design, but they were stuck with what they had contracted for.


    I cannot believe how much detail you tend to leave out of your naive, ignorant, uneducated explainations of all things audio. I understand however this is the best you can do with what you have (which ain't all that much).
    Still more than you


    If it were nothing more than a clone product, all outlaw would need is to stuff it in a box and slap their badge on it. Their pre-pro will have capabilities the Sherwood receiver doesn't have, that is why they are having problems. It may have some software and hardware similarities, but you can bet your false teeth the it will have some upgrades that differentiate it from the Sherwood It will likely have upgraded parts, and different software programming. Neither of these is easy to incorporate in a single hardware design which must serve different purposes and different consumer market segments.
    They probably dont even do that much, they probably come from the contractor all ready to go, and just have to be turned around.
    And prattle on all you want about the "differences", only difference between the two will be cosmetic, like the difference between a ford focus and a mazda protege


    I do not know a single manufacturer who has created a new pre-pro that can handle the new audio and video formats that didn't incur delays while in production - not a single one. They require so much more processing horse power than previous designs, and need to handle to audio and video so differently than previous designs it is almost requires a ground up approach. It almost requires a completely re-tooling of your manufacturing process, something a company the size of Outlaw just does not have the capital outlay to do. It requires much more complex programming of the SOC which are already more expensive than before, requires a more knowledgeable programmer, and thereby a more expensive one. This is why the specialty manufacturers are basically late to the party. The huge electronic conglomerates have the capital, and the in house programmers and designers to easily make changes, and adopt to new products entering the market.
    Blah blah blah.
    Sherwoods late, so OUTLAW is late, thats basically it.

    Outlaw is a small manufacturer and designer of products, but they are certainly not just a marketing company like your coveted Vizio.
    The only thing Outlaw has ever "designed" is a corporate image , a product style,
    and a marketing plan.
    Thats about it.
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  13. #13
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Once again, you are too stupid to learn anything. Just hang on to your lies, since that is all you have the capacity to do.
    Sir Terrence

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  14. #14
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    Interesting move by Outlaw and some good comments/points. Off the top of my head I can't think of any manufacturer that has ever sold another companies product, at least without first putting their own name on it. But, after all, they are outlaws, right? That is sort of taking off the manufacturer hat and putting on the online retailer hat. Outlaw could become an in house name like Insignia is to Best Buy. I know Best Buy don't design or build the Insignia. On one hand if Outlaw was a true designer and manufacturer you'd think they could put out the product they need but on the other hand look who has, not many. And to my knowledge none of the higher end manufacturer's have. Well the exception may be the $30k Krell but I haven't seen a feature list and reports from those who have heard it have not been good. The only processors to hit the street and be successful are the larger companies with resources and many of them already had experience with HDMI and the new technologies in their receivers so it really didn't take that large of a step to produce a processor.

    Now the exception to all of what I said is Emotiva. When I was on the website their processor is out of stock. I believe they did sell some units though, didn't Roadrunner get one? Now these guys could end up being the real MVP in the game depending on whether they can supply their unit.

    Any way I see the move as a win win for both companies. Outlaw has a processor to package with their amps and Onkyo has help moving more numbers of their processor. If Outlaw has a bunch of capital tied up in amps it makes sense to do something to move them. I could be wrong but that is what I got from them offering the package deal, move some amps. I fully believe there is more motivation to Outlaw than just offering a processor to their customers. Of course, I'm sure they make a bit of jingle on the processor but I still think there's more to it.
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  15. #15
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Interesting move by Outlaw and some good comments/points. Off the top of my head I can't think of any manufacturer that has ever sold another companies product, at least without first putting their own name on it. But, after all, they are outlaws, right? That is sort of taking off the manufacturer hat and putting on the online retailer hat. Outlaw could become an in house name like Insignia is to Best Buy. I know Best Buy don't design or build the Insignia. On one hand if Outlaw was a true designer and manufacturer you'd think they could put out the product they need but on the other hand look who has, not many. And to my knowledge none of the higher end manufacturer's have. Well the exception may be the $30k Krell but I haven't seen a feature list and reports from those who have heard it have not been good. The only processors to hit the street and be successful are the larger companies with resources and many of them already had experience with HDMI and the new technologies in their receivers so it really didn't take that large of a step to produce a processor.

    Now the exception to all of what I said is Emotiva. When I was on the website their processor is out of stock. I believe they did sell some units though, didn't Roadrunner get one? Now these guys could end up being the real MVP in the game depending on whether they can supply their unit.

    Any way I see the move as a win win for both companies. Outlaw has a processor to package with their amps and Onkyo has help moving more numbers of their processor. If Outlaw has a bunch of capital tied up in amps it makes sense to do something to move them. I could be wrong but that is what I got from them offering the package deal, move some amps. I fully believe there is more motivation to Outlaw than just offering a processor to their customers. Of course, I'm sure they make a bit of jingle on the processor but I still think there's more to it.
    This is a sign of desperation, basically.
    ONKYO probably wouldnt let outlaw rebadge their stuff, so they have to sell "as in",
    and they had to take the deal, no choice, really.
    AND AFTER experiencing Onkyo a lot are going to figure out that they dont need
    outlaw.
    Middlemen like Outlaw rarely make it through hard times, and that will probably
    be the case this time.
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  16. #16
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    This is a sign of desperation, basically.
    ONKYO probably wouldnt let outlaw rebadge their stuff, so they have to sell "as in",
    and they had to take the deal, no choice, really.
    AND AFTER experiencing Onkyo a lot are going to figure out that they dont need
    outlaw.
    Middlemen like Outlaw rarely make it through hard times, and that will probably
    be the case this time.
    Once again you don't know what you are talking about. Outlaw has been partnering with other companies throughout their entire existence. They partnered with HSU in the design of their subs and speakers, and they were doing exceptionally well financially when they did.

    Panasonic has partnered with Pioneer on the development of plasma technology. Panasonic's new neo PDP panels are a direct result of that partnership. Sony has benefited from the work of both Panasonic and Pioneer and developed a panel along with Panasonic that delivers 100% of the resolution during moving scenes (1080p with moving scenes next to Vizio's 330 lines of resolution during moving scenes). A lot of small and large electronic manufacturers are partnering with others to spread the risk around.

    It is all about being business savvy(of which is apparent you are not). When you are a small manufacturing concern, why re-invent the wheel. Their facilities are not designed for creating accurate speakers (no anechoic chamber which are VERY expensive to build), so you go to somebody who makes well designed speakers. When you don't have the resources to hire a quality code programmer, you partner with others to design a mutual platform.

    This is not a sigh of desperation, this is a sign of a savvy business plan with realities in tow. Not all manufacturing concerns can afford the luxuries of the other larger manufacturing concerns. That is just a fact.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 09-07-2009 at 10:04 AM.
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  17. #17
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Once again you don't know what you are talking about. Outlaw has been partnering with other companies throughout their entire existence. They partnered with HSU in the design of their subs and speakers, and they were doing exceptionally well financially when they did.
    If by "partnering" you mean rebadging stuff made by others, then you are right


    Panasonic has partnered with Pioneer on the development of plasma technology. Panasonic's new neo PDP panels are a direct result of that partnership. Sony has benefited from the work of both Panasonic and Pioneer and developed a panel along with Panasonic that delivers 100% of the resolution during moving scenes (1080p with moving scenes next to Vizio's 330 lines of resolution during moving scenes). A lot of small and large electronic manufacturers are partnering with others to spread the risk around.
    Yeah, panasonic has "partnered " with Pioneer on getting the most out of obsolete plasma
    tech(which is basically a flat CRT)and its really done em a lot of good.
    Maybe they can "partner" in sharing their losses as plasma sales continue to tank.
    And here is the "big lie" that I keep hearing over and over, that a progressive display
    loses resolution when theres movement, which doesnt happen.
    Interlaced displays lose resolution during movement, this is why computer companies
    went with progressive displays.
    That hasnt changed, and the made up "motion resolution" tests wont change it.
    And people wont start buying plasmas in spite of these type of skewed, phoney balony tests.




    It is all about being business savvy(of which is apparent you are not). When you are a small manufacturing concern, why re-invent the wheel. Their facilities are not designed for creating accurate speakers (no anechoic chamber which are VERY expensive to build), so you go to somebody who makes well designed speakers. When you don't have the resources to hire a quality code programmer, you partner with others to design a mutual platform.
    OUTLAW isnt a small "manufacturing" concern, they are a small "MARKETING" concern.
    I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, why do you?
    I, unlike you, however, wont fall for a bunch od marketing BS.
    And Outlaw (and you) can sugarcoat it anyway you want, every sale going to Onkyo
    from the Outlaw website is never coming back to outlaw, the purchaser is
    goibg to figure out rather quickly that they dont need outlaw


    This is not a sigh of desperation, this is a sign of a savvy business plan with realities in tow. Not all manufacturing concerns can afford the luxuries of the other larger manufacturing concerns. That is just a fact.
    Like the luxery of survival, and if outlaw was a serious "manufacturing concern"
    they might have the "luxery" of changing their product line to fit changing market climates,
    instead of being at the mercy of whatever they have contracted out to sell.
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  18. #18
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Pix,
    Your lies, uneducated guesses, misinformation, long boughts of stupidity, and just plain ignorance is not entertaining at all.

    In short, you don't know $hit about electronics either on the marketing side, or the manufacturing side.
    Sir Terrence

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  19. #19
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Pix,
    Your lies, uneducated guesses, misinformation, long boughts of stupidity, and just plain ignorance is not entertaining at all.

    In short, you don't know $hit about electronics either on the marketing side, or the manufacturing side.
    OHHHHH!
    Do you talk to your children with that mouth?
    FOR SHAME!
    I have been following this scene for a long time, and being someone who works for a living(as opposed to working his mouth like you) I have found that I can make my hard earned dollar go father if i understand the ins and outs of marketing BS, in other words whats
    real and what is some marketing wonks fantasy that they want me to buy into.
    Outlaw isnt the first to set up a company to sell rebadged stuff made by others,
    wont be the last.
    If we all bought just what we need instead of what we want the American econoimy
    would collapse, marketing convinces us to buy unneeded stuff.
    For decades marketing convinced a lot of otherwise sane people to trade cars that
    last twenty years every two or three years, in order to keep the factories running.
    We may not make anything anymore but our marketing is first rate.
    Outlaws' prime market is the skinflint audiophile, their strategy is to convince them that
    they have quality gear at dollar store prices.
    But they are unable to keep the price points low enough, even using OEM'S like Sherwood.
    Eventually they will be figured out, and they will be gone.
    Of course the super clueless such as yourself will never figure it out.
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  20. #20
    nightflier
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    Outlaw drops the price on the Onkyo PR-SC866 pre/pro

    Apparently, they weren't selling too many of them and other online retailers were lower, so Outlaw is now offering the Onkyo PR-SC866 pre/pro for more respectable $1449 and offering up to 28% off any accompanying amp. They are also offering existing PR-SC866 owners (even if they bought it elsewhere) 15% off any Outlaw amp:

    http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultim.../t/000003.html

    I guess now that the PR-SC866 is $1450, it begs the question as to how much they will be selling their own pre/pro for. Trinnov or not, they will have a lot to make up for.

  21. #21
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    OHHHHH!
    Do you talk to your children with that mouth?
    FOR SHAME!
    I have been following this scene for a long time, and being someone who works for a living(as opposed to working his mouth like you) I have found that I can make my hard earned dollar go father if i understand the ins and outs of marketing BS, in other words whats
    real and what is some marketing wonks fantasy that they want me to buy into.
    If you have been following this scene a long time, then how are you so ignorant about so many things? You say Vizio is a manufacturer, yet they own no plants, no in house customer service, no inventory of parts, and no design team. What they do have is rented offices in Irvine, but you say they are a manufacturer. Outlaw has a design team, parts inventory, and a in house customer service and yet they are just a marketing concern. Yes their products are manufactured in China and Malaysia, but so are Sony's, Panasonic, and oh by the way Vizio. You inconsistancies in understanding what is a marketing concern, and what is a manufacturer is either an act of purposeful stupidity, stubborn and blind ignorance, or just immature contraryness. Take your pick.


    Outlaw isnt the first to set up a company to sell rebadged stuff made by others,
    wont be the last.
    Sorry liar(because that is what you are), but not one product produced by Outlaw is a re-badged product. Not one! All of their products are designed by them, or as a team with another company. All of their products are exclusive, designed and manufactured for Outlaw. Their speakers are made in America, a custom design for Outlaw by Dr. Poh HSU. Their recievers, amps, and pre-amps are all custom designed by Outlaw, and manufactured in China by a ISO 9001 certified manufacturer. Vizio has never gone to such great length to ensure quality, and testing shows that.

    If we all bought just what we need instead of what we want the American econoimy
    would collapse, marketing convinces us to buy unneeded stuff.
    For decades marketing convinced a lot of otherwise sane people to trade cars that
    last twenty years every two or three years, in order to keep the factories running.
    We may not make anything anymore but our marketing is first rate.
    Funny, I do not remember one time Outlaw tried to convince me to buy any of their products. I don't remember any manufacturing concern telling me to buy their products. I buy what I want when I need it or want it.


    Outlaws' prime market is the skinflint audiophile, their strategy is to convince them that
    they have quality gear at dollar store prices.
    Sorry but skinflint and audiophile are not usually used in the sentence. An audiophile usually does not care about the price of equipment as long as it performs up to his or her's expectations. A skinflint buys a Vizio television and uses his or her delusion mind to think this is a high performance quality product.

    But they are unable to keep the price points low enough, even using OEM'S like Sherwood.
    Eventually they will be figured out, and they will be gone.
    Of course the super clueless such as yourself will never figure it out.
    Hmmm, it seems to me that since Outlaw is a online only manufacturer, they can keep prices in check my eliminating the middle man. I don't think the prices of their products are the issue here, but the general economy as a whole that has even Sony, Toshiba, Pioneer, and Panasonic reeling in red ink.

    It is apparent that you see what you want to see, quote what you want to quote, and believe your inaccurate press even when presented evidence that your press is false and untrue. You are the worse kind of liar there is, a liar in completely denial of the facts.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 09-15-2009 at 02:40 PM.
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  22. #22
    Forum Regular frahengeo's Avatar
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    Taken from their website:

    "...It's true, we have no factory, and we never will. If you are not building huge quantities of products, factories are very inefficient and add unnecessary overhead to the final manufacturing cost. We are designers and engineers. First we spec and design our products, and then we locate the best possible venue for their manufacture..."

    So they control and spec out their own design and contract out the manufacturing/assembly. Doesn't exactly sound like "Re-Labeling" to me.
    It's a disease, really.
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  23. #23
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frahengeo
    Taken from their website:

    "...It's true, we have no factory, and we never will. If you are not building huge quantities of products, factories are very inefficient and add unnecessary overhead to the final manufacturing cost. We are designers and engineers. First we spec and design our products, and then we locate the best possible venue for their manufacture..."

    So they control and spec out their own design and contract out the manufacturing/assembly. Doesn't exactly sound like "Re-Labeling" to me.
    Well, thats what it is, basically.
    Sure they might change a spec here and there, but nothing significant.
    They might say they "engineer" their products, but they don't, they come up with a
    list of requirements they they want the product to "spec" out at and let others
    do the heavy lifting.
    Even if they did any serious design work, getting a design from the cad-cam to the factory
    as a finished product is half the work, and I can guarentee that a good bit of their product
    is little more than cosmetic.
    And nothing wrong with that, its a free market.
    But at my new workplace there is a Pioneer SX-650, a 34 year old stereo receiver that
    someone brought to listen to, except for one dial light it still looks and runs great.
    I doubt that any of the Realistic(Radio Shack) receivers that PIONEER made under
    contract are still going as strong.
    When people make their own stuff, they tend to care more about it, is all.
    Cambridge stuff is made in China, but they design it in England and their liason in Hong Kong handles the production end in China, they are "hands on" during the entire process.
    Outlaw isnt, is all I am saying.
    Compare some of the specs of outlaw amps to that of some Adcom amps, see how close they are , and figure out if there is more cachet to owning a ADCOM as oppossed to
    an OUTLAW, then try to figure out if you need Outlaw.
    All I am saying.
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  24. #24
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis


    Well, thats what it is, basically.
    Sure they might change a spec here and there, but nothing significant.
    They might say they "engineer" their products, but they don't, they come up with a
    list of requirements they they want the product to "spec" out at and let others
    do the heavy lifting.
    Even if they did any serious design work, getting a design from the cad-cam to the factory
    as a finished product is half the work, and I can guarentee that a good bit of their product
    is little more than cosmetic.
    And nothing wrong with that, its a free market.
    But at my new workplace there is a Pioneer SX-650, a 34 year old stereo receiver that
    someone brought to listen to, except for one dial light it still looks and runs great.
    I doubt that any of the Realistic(Radio Shack) receivers that PIONEER made under
    contract are still going as strong.
    When people make their own stuff, they tend to care more about it, is all.
    Cambridge stuff is made in China, but they design it in England and their liason in Hong Kong handles the production end in China, they are "hands on" during the entire process.
    Outlaw isnt, is all I am saying.
    Compare some of the specs of outlaw amps to that of some Adcom amps, see how close they are , and figure out if there is more cachet to owning a ADCOM as oppossed to
    an OUTLAW, then try to figure out if you need Outlaw.
    All I am saying.
    You really do like the taste of sand don't cha?
    Sir Terrence

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  25. #25
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    You really do like the taste of sand don't cha?

    YOU like being absolutely clueless, dont you?
    Well, don't worry, you are quite good at it.
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