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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Well, actually I have three: the main I7-860 in the office, a Core Duo P8400 laptop and an older Northwood P4 box upstairs as a data mirror for the main one. I really have no interest in having a desktop PC in the living room. I gave away older PCs.
rw
Not sure what your building setup is, but I place my server in the garage, so no extra noise or unsightly computer rig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
as you should have read how I have mine setup (full digital), I also said I can tell the differences from my analog ones upstairs from the one downstairs. You said that the Dac's used where only budget quality, and I posted the spec sheet to show you the quality of those Dac's being used. I also found a report on why the analog Dac's are weak and it has nothing to do with Burr Brown, but the power supply. It list a company that sales a upgraded power cord ($10.00) that allows the Dac's to reach their full potential. he use a $3k cd transport as the test comparison.
Now with that said you also have your unit connect via digital so your argument is mute.
Maybe you should read my own list of gear, the Elite line is considered a fairly good line. I didn't think I needed to point that out since its listed on every post I make. But I will play along and to let you know my CD is connected via toslink also same as the Squeezebox so my own test was completely fair. Music use was Earl Klugh acoustic guitar and ripped as WAV lossless. I would suggest you google Squeezebox upgrades and find that report and you may save yourself a dollars. $800 vs $10 power cord????? go figure.
So a $10 powercord is all that is needed to turn a Squeezebox into a High End source? How about if I just put a heavy rock on top of it to reduce vibrations, would that make it rival the $5K Berkley DAC?
(Also, the equipment in your signature is clear, which is why I asked my question... As "fairly good" as Elite products are, they're not generally regarded as high end)
Since you are using the digital out of your Squeezebox, then I don't understand why you think my setup is "over processed"... I use digital out to my DAC/preamp (which goes directly to my power amp)...
Also I have no idea how my argument is now "mute"... My point has always been that a one box solution like the Marantz, might sound as good as my 2 box combo + save some money... I wouldn't use the Marantz plus a Benchmark DAC (that would be a waste of money), I'd use the Marantz as both transport and DAC....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
I also found a report on why the analog Dac's are weak and it has nothing to do with Burr Brown, but the power supply. It list a company that sales a upgraded power cord ($10.00) that allows the Dac's to reach their full potential. he use a $3k cd transport as the test comparison.
There is so much more to the performance of a DAC than the initial conversion chip that a ten dollar wall wart power supply can correct. A better power supply will no doubt help, but will not elevate this modest product to what is available. Not even close. Specs are essentially useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
...so your argument is mute.
The term you seek is "moot" and no, it is not. It is your level of experience that stands mute.
rw
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thank you for that correction mute/moot
and by the way the upgrade power supply is made by some company in England, by order only.
Your complaint about the squeezebox was the analog Dac, but you don't even use the those Dac's in your own setup as you connect you system via digital output. Now I never said that the Squeezebox was highend, but compared to what you posted. it will hold its own.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
thank you for that correction mute/moot
and by the way the upgrade power supply is made by some company in England, by order only.
Your complaint about the squeezebox was the analog Dac, but you don't even use the those Dac's in your own setup as you connect you system via digital output.
And??? I know what the Squeezebox plugged directly into my amp sounds like (which is why I use an external DAC)... My point has always been that the analog output of the Squeezebox is nothing special, so hopefully one of the streamers/servers I've listed will have better sound quality (meaning that an audiophile would not need to purchase an external DAC, as I did to use with the Squeezebox)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
Now I never said that the Squeezebox was highend, but compared to what you posted. it will hold its own.
Based on what??? Have you compared the Squeezebox to the "not yet released" Cambridge, Rotel or Marantz streamers??? Or have you just looked at a spec sheet and made an assumption???
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
And??? I know what the Squeezebox plugged directly into my amp sounds like (which is why I use an external DAC)... My point has always been that the analog output of the Squeezebox is nothing special, so hopefully one of the streamers/servers I've listed will have better sound quality (meaning that an audiophile would not need to purchase an external DAC, as I did to use with the Squeezebox)...
Based on what??? Have you compared the Squeezebox to the "not yet released" Cambridge, Rotel or Marantz streamers??? Or have you just looked at a spec sheet and made an assumption???
The same assumption that you took, due to the name brand of the units.?????
and yes you said it yourself, base on the sound quality of the Marantz CD unit and other products they made. I have own other DAR in the past that where not very good on many levels, made by computer companies (Netgear, Linksys) and when I found the reviews of the Squeezebox I made a leap of faith and have not turn back since. I know there are better DAR out there, but for the money its hard to beat the squeezebox and the performance it gives. I have nothing against any of the items you linked, I just felt that you tried to throw the Squeezebox down the river, because it was not made by a well known audio company. I guess we will just have to wait and see if an extra $500+ buys satisfaction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
The same assumption that you took, due to the name brand of the units.?????
and yes you said it yourself, base on the sound quality of the Marantz CD unit and other products they made. I have own other DAR in the past that where not very good on many levels, made by computer companies (Netgear, Linksys) and when I found the reviews of the Squeezebox I made a leap of faith and have not turn back since. I know there are better DAR out there, but for the money its hard to beat the squeezebox and the performance it gives. I have nothing against any of the items you linked, I just felt that you tried to throw the Squeezebox down the river, because it was not made by a well known audio company. I guess we will just have to wait and see if an extra $500+ buys satisfaction.
I've made no assumptions based on brands, here's the first post where I talk about sound quality:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ME
So IF the Marantz, Rotel, Cambridge, Olive units maintain the kind of sound quality those brands are known for, then you won't need a DAC to get good sound
Pleas note the highlighted key word in my post... I don't just assume that they will sound better than the Squeezebox (I'd have to test them first - which for me involves listening rather than just reading spec sheets)....
Also, I never tried to throw the Squeezebox down the river... It's a great product for $300 (I've had mine for over 2 years) and, like I've done, can be easily upgraded by purchasing a DAC... I created this thread to show persons, who are considering setting up music servers, that there are some (relatively affordable) new options coming soon from several brands... However the first responses from yourself and a few others were immediately negative and dismissive of the products (which none of you have auditioned or even read a review of)... So I've merely addressed all those dismissals...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Ummm Gents, the reason to consider any of those servers/streamers is not just convenience... a $300 Squeezebox Touch or a $50 used computer would make a convenient music server...
The issue is sound quality... I'd have to connect the Squeezebox/computer to a DAC to get decent sound... So IF the Marantz, Rotel, Cambridge, Olive units maintain the kind of sound quality those brands are known for, then you won't need a DAC to get good sound... Just plug them into your integrated amp (like a CD player) and listen to some sweet tunes...
My existing setup is a Squeezebox Classic ($300) connected to a Benchmark DAC1 ($1K) with an Audioquest digital cable ($30). So total = $1,330... Considering the reputation for sound quality of Marantz's cd players, the $800 NA7004 music server might sound just as good as my $1,330 setup (plus look a lot nicer - just one box)...
You left out part of the sentence?
Here is the post that got my attention and yes you made the assumption about the name brand. And when you stated that the Dac's in the squeezbox were only some budget level, I only posted the spec sheet to prove that their are quality parts used in the design of the unit. Now I re-read those ads again, the Cambridge does not even state what Dac's it has and the the Rotel use the Wolfson Dac's. So as you point out that I had holes in my points, but I only showed that the information on these are incomplete, so to say,hope or wish they are better is a reach. So even if I did tried to compare spec's only the SB would still come out ahead due to lack of information from the others. For some reason you think me and others are attacking you, but that is not the case from me for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
You left out part of the sentence?
Here is the post that got my attention and yes you made the assumption about the name brand. And when you stated that the Dac's in the squeezbox were only some budget level, I only posted the spec sheet to prove that their are quality parts used in the design of the unit. Now I re-read those ads again, the Cambridge does not even state what Dac's it has and the the Rotel use the Wolfson Dac's. So as you point out that I had holes in my points, but I only showed that the information on these are incomplete, so to say,hope or wish they are better is a reach. So even if I did tried to compare spec's only the SB would still come out ahead due to lack of information from the others. For some reason you think me and others are attacking you, but that is not the case from me for sure.
OK... how can my use of the word IF be an assumption that those brands sound better than the Squeezebox???
Anyway my point in calling attention to these 4 products is clear. I would ask what your point in this thread is (as you claim it is not to attack the products), but that would just prolong a rather pointless discussion...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
OK... how can my use of the word IF be an assumption that those brands sound better than the Squeezebox???
Anyway my point in calling attention to these 4 products is clear. I would ask what your point in this thread is (as you claim it is not to attack the products), but that would just prolong a rather pointless discussion...
my point was the value and performance of the SB compare to a unit costing hundreds more. and here is the info on a couple of companies that make the upgraded power cord:
Summing up
While the Slim Devices Squeezebox with stock power supply (footnote 1) offers generally good performance from its analog outputs, it was the sound it produced driving a high-end DAC from its digital output that persuaded me to purchase the review sample. While I still turn to a dedicated disc player for the highest sound quality, much of my listening to music is done while I'm doing something else—writing, editing, reading—and for that, the Squeezebox has become my primary source. As I wrote in the mid-April eNewsletter, "physical discs seem so 20th century!" Very highly recommended.
<HR>
Footnote 1: A number of companies, such as Red Wine Audio and Bolder Cable, now offer modifications and upgraded power supplies for the Squeezebox. Red Wine also offers a battery supply for the Squeezebox.
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I like the Olive having the hard drive built in to save space but on the other hand it could be more likely to have reliability issues down the road. These may not be for the guy who already has his library on the computer as you can stream any where from it. After all these years digital inputs are becoming a feature on CDP's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
OK... how can my use of the word IF be an assumption that those brands sound better than the Squeezebox???
Anyway my point in calling attention to these 4 products is clear. I would ask what your point in this thread is (as you claim it is not to attack the products), but that would just prolong a rather pointless discussion...
When using conjectures you lead your readers to think you are stating fact from a belief: So If the world is round I will sail around the world
So IF the Marantz, Rotel, Cambridge, Olive units maintain the kind of sound quality those brands are known for, then you won't need a DAC to get good sound...
con·jec·ture
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</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> /kənˈdʒɛkhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/...una/thinsp.pngtʃər/ http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/...on_default.gif Show Spelled [kuhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/...una/thinsp.pngn-jek-cher] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/...on_default.gif Show IPA noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun 1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
3. Obsolete . the interpretation of signs or omens.
–verb (used with object) 4. to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
Your complaint about the squeezebox was the analog Dac
Whatever do you mean by the "analog DAC"? Do you understand what that acronym represents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
, but you don't even use the those Dac's in your own setup as you connect you system via digital output
Exactly. I use better.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
Not sure what your building setup is, but I place my server in the garage, so no extra noise or unsightly computer rig
At as IT professional who works out of his home, I place my "unsightly" computers in the office.
http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/office1.jpg
http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/office2.jpg
If I want to use a computer in the garage or out by the pool, I use the laptop. My audio gear in the garage is tucked away in a closet behind the speakers. I rather like the fact that the Touch has such a small footprint.
http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/touch.jpg
rw
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very nice home office, love the wood floors
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I also order the Squeezebox Touch and should get it in a few days. I'll hook it up to the Living Room system whiIe streaming the audio thru the wireless router. I got lots of music in my PC mostly CDs and downloads from itunes. The units in Ajani's post looks like high end Squeezebox type devices. It should play well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
my point was the value and performance of the SB compare to a unit costing hundreds more. and here is the info on a couple of companies that make the upgraded power cord:
Summing up
While the Slim Devices Squeezebox with stock power supply (footnote 1) offers generally good performance from its analog outputs, it was the sound it produced driving a high-end DAC from its digital output that persuaded me to purchase the review sample. While I still turn to a dedicated disc player for the highest sound quality, much of my listening to music is done while I'm doing something else—writing, editing, reading—and for that, the Squeezebox has become my primary source. As I wrote in the mid-April eNewsletter, "physical discs seem so 20th century!" Very highly recommended.
<HR>
Footnote 1: A number of companies, such as Red Wine Audio and Bolder Cable, now offer modifications and upgraded power supplies for the Squeezebox. Red Wine also offers a battery supply for the Squeezebox.
Seriously do you even read the reviews you post??? They all say the exact same thing I've said:
The analog output of the Squeezebox is nothing special - good for $300, but definitely not mid or high end, regardless of what the spec sheet says about the DAC chip that it uses (BTW Burr Brown DAC chips are used in $300 CD players as well - that doesn't meant those players sound as good as high end ones)... The reviewer you quoted, John Atkinson if I'm not mistaken, makes it clear that he purchased the sample to use the digital outputs with a high end DAC... The digital outputs are fine, but that requires using an external DAC (like the Benchmark I use)... Note that he does not say that he bought the unit and used the analog outputs with an upgraded power supply ($10 power cord or whatever)...
Also, I suggest you research the rating the Squeezebox Classic was given in Stereophile versus the Marantz SA8001 CD Player... Then you will understand the reputation I am referring to for Marantz products around the $1K mark... And why it is possible that the players I opened this thread to talk about may indeed sound better than the $300 Squeezebox...
Note also, that an $800 streamer sounding better than a $300 one does not in anyway imply that the $300 one is not a good product (since somehow you think I'm dissing the Squeezebox by suggesting that more expensive alternatives might sound better)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Seriously do you even read the reviews you post??? They all say the exact same thing I've said:
The analog output of the Squeezebox is nothing special - good for $300, but definitely not mid or high end, regardless of what the spec sheet says about the DAC chip that it uses (BTW Burr Brown DAC chips are used in $300 CD players as well - that doesn't meant those players sound as good as high end ones)... The reviewer you quoted, John Atkinson if I'm not mistaken, makes it clear that he purchased the sample to use the digital outputs with a high end DAC... The digital outputs are fine, but that requires using an external DAC (like the Benchmark I use)... Note that he does not say that he bought the unit and used the analog outputs with an upgraded power supply ($10 power cord or whatever)...
I read them all in full, but as with many on here, If I can spend less and get more I am a happy man.
Now, since you feel I am shooting down these item you posted. Maybe it is the fact there is no spec sheet to compare to the $300 SB. The Rotel listed one and I did not see anything that would get me all warm and fuzzy to upgrade for the price. So lets just call this for what it is, you have your view and I have mine and until these items it the market its all sale pitch. But at least I post facts and unbiased reviews and I have yet to see you post the same. oh by the way if your interested I found a few more companies that make the upgrade power supply:
Hosfelt Electronics.....................Hosfelt.com......P art #7202C3 (you may have to change the connection end) price $7.00
Elpac............................................. ..................Part # WM075-1950-760
All I try to do is help. hopefully this upgrade will save you a few dollars down the road.
If you re-read all these post, it has been you that has continued this dialog all in a effort to try to promote these items and prove your point that the analog output is lacking, which no one disagreed with. I do appreciate this exchange for I have learned about the power supply upgrades myself and just may look into getting one for my own system. So I did learn something.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
I read them all in full, but as with many on here, If I can spend less and get more I am a happy man.
Now, since you feel I am shooting down these item you posted. Maybe it is the fact there is no spec sheet to compare to the $300 SB. The Rotel listed one and I did not see anything that would get me all warm and fuzzy to upgrade for the price. So lets just call this for what it is, you have your view and I have mine and until these items it the market its all sale pitch. But at least I post facts and unbiased reviews and I have yet to see you post the same. oh by the way if your interested I found a few more companies that make the upgrade power supply:
Hosfelt Electronics.....................Hosfelt.com......P art #7202C3 (you may have to change the connection end) price $7.00
Elpac............................................. ..................Part # WM075-1950-760
All I try to do is help. hopefully this upgrade will save you a few dollars down the road.
If you re-read all these post, it has been you that has continued this dialog all in a effort to try to promote these items and prove your point that the analog output is lacking, which no one disagreed with. I do appreciate this exchange for I have learned about the power supply upgrades myself and just may look into getting one for my own system. So I did learn something.
If you learned something then congrats...
Why you seem to think I'm a salesman for products I have no financial interest in is beyond me....
My sole aim has been to identify new products... and like anyone with even a lick of intelligence, I will wait for them to be released, so I can audition them and determine if they are worth the money...
Also spec sheets would not be reason to upgrade from the Squeezebox... Even if the Rotel, Marantz, etc have better specs I would not buy any of them unless they actually sound better than the Squeezebox...
Also, why would I need to post unbiased reviews, when all the reviews you post are saying exactly what I've been saying?
As for the issue of me continuing the dialog. Note 1: Dialog requres 2 people... so you are as guilty of continuing it as I am (since you always respond)... Note 2: You started this dialog in the first place... I had no desire to discuss anything with you (please refresh your memory of my initial post - which was about 4 new products and had nothing to do with you or the Squeezebox)... And my second post where I mention my setup was not even to you (since you weren't in this thread yet) but you felt the need to comment and started this dialog...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by recoveryone
very nice home office, love the wood floors
Thanks. BTW, I just ordered a surplus Elpac WM220-1 power supply for $55 delivered. Since it has a DIN plug, at the very least I will need to replace it with a 2.5mm barrel. This is the one Bolder modifies ($125) for use with the SB. Then again, you could purchase the "Ultimate Power Supply" and aftermarket cable for a cool $1325!
Mods to Elpac
Power supplies always matter, but I really think you will not find much, if any in the way of improvement for ten bucks. You are probably aware that the WM075-1950-760 is no longer available. Mouser has a compatible one for about $26 plus shipping, but it is still a wall wart.
WM1005-760
rw
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I read the info on the bolder and they go way over the top..lol, but for $20-60 bucks I will give one of them a try. Don't forget to post your findings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Pix these products (with exception of the Olive) are essentially Squeezeboxes (hopefully with better DACs and output stages)... So the reason to consider buying any of them is because they would have good sound quality... If you believe that all digital sounds the same, then you could just buy a Squeezebox or even better yet a used laptop and plug it directly into your stereo...
You miss my point.
How much extra would a cheap optical drive and a 1TB drive for storage cost? A few
hundred bucks. So its a squeezebox, still figuring out why you need one of those,
but why do you need one of these then? Anybody that knows computers doesnt need a squeeze, BTW.:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
You miss my point.
How much extra would a cheap optical drive and a 1TB drive for storage cost?
The appropriate question is: How much extra would a better DAC cost?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Anybody that knows computers doesnt need a squeeze
or...
1. Wants multiple music systems sharing same library
2. Wants a digital transport in a different room from the music server
3. Has limited space
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
You miss my point.
How much extra would a cheap optical drive and a 1TB drive for storage cost? A few
hundred bucks. So its a squeezebox, still figuring out why you need one of those,
but why do you need one of these then? Anybody that knows computers doesnt need a squeeze, BTW.:1:
In addition to the the points E-Stat made, I'd add that a simple feature like a remote makes the Squeezebox more useful for listening to music from across the room than a computer...
For listening to music through headphones, I prefer to have a direct connection to the computer, but for speakers the Squeezebox is far more convenient...
In fact, at the moment I have my Bencmark DAC connected (via M-Audio USB Transit) to my laptop in my bedroom, driving my headphones... While I use the Squeezebox with my amp and speakers in the living room...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
You miss my point.
How much extra would a cheap optical drive and a 1TB drive for storage cost? A few
hundred bucks. So its a squeezebox, still figuring out why you need one of those,
but why do you need one of these then? Anybody that knows computers doesnt need a squeeze, BTW.:1:
Pix you are 100% correct if all you did was use that computer for one system in your house. A good sound card and DAC is all you need and some sound card don't even need a DAC to improve the sound (personal taste). But for someone like me, I can lay in bed use my remote to the squeezebox and listen to the Steve Harvey morning show from New York (I live in California), get out of bed head down stairs and turn on the squeezebox down stairs and listens to Last.fm (smooth Jazz or Neo Soul) while the kids can turn the squeezebox upstairs (3rd one) and listen to the hip hop/top 40 playlist all from the same computer, all at the same time. Flexability and Full control at its best! for me.
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