Hollywood shoots itself in foot again over high def DVDs?

[paul_pci]

Just when you thought the studios couldn't cram anymore stupidity into their brains, we learn that they are forced manufactures to make sure that non-HDMI transfer of high definition DVDs must be down converted. So if your television or projector doesn't have an HDMI input, all this will be a waste of time and money for you. Here's the synopsis from Digital Bits:

"the companies and studios behind the AACS (Advanced Access Content System) copy protection scheme (that's going to be used on both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD) have officially decided this week to require hardware manufactures to prevent full 1080-line resolution video signals (1920x1080) from being passed through unprotected analog outputs (read: component connections). The decision as to whether or not to use the restriction will be left up to the content providers and will be triggered by a software flag on the discs on a case by case basis. What this means, however, is that most movie discs are only going to be displayed at full 1080 resolution through digital HDMI connections. If you don't have HDMI on your HDTV or projector (we're not sure if DVI-to-HDMI adapted connections will be affected), the best you'll be able to see through your component cables is an electronically down-converted 540 lines (960x540 lines). That's just a tad better than regular DVD, which weighs in at 480-line resolution (720x480)."

You can also find the story here:
http://www.dvdexclusive.com/article.asp?articleID=2657

[L.J.]

(we're not sure if DVI-to-HDMI adapted connections will be affected)



I thought DVI was OK for the new formats. My TV has a DVI connection. Does that mean I'm screwed or what?

[paul_pci]

(we're not sure if DVI-to-HDMI adapted connections will be affected)



I thought DVI was OK for the new formats. My TV has a DVI connection. Does that mean I'm screwed or what?

From what I briefly read, that answer is: nobody knows just yet. Great, huh? Don't forget to send your thankyou card to Hollywood.

[Woochifer]

This has been a long expected move because of the studios' paranoia about copy protection. Their efforts to downconvert any analog video outputs are rumored to extend down to all future HD devices, including satellite/cable receivers and DVRs. I would not be surprised if one day people replace their set top devices and find that the analog resolution has been restricted to 480p on those devices.

But, I think that the secure digital video requirement is only one of many obstacles that threaten to derail the HD-DVD/Blu-ray launch. Here are some other market issues facing those formats.

- format war (DVD didn't take off until all of the studios came on board, and the pay-per-view DIVX scheme unraveled; a protracted format war will impede the progress of HD video discs just as other competing technologies come to fruition)

- not enough consumers that will immediately benefit from the enhanced capability (less than 20% of U.S. households own HDTVs and nobody owns DD+/DTS-HD audio decoders; unlike with DVD, where everybody could see an improvement in video quality and functionality over VHS, that same clearcut improvement in going to Blu-ray/HD-DVD from DVD does not hold true for the majority of households that do not own HDTVs)

- pending competition from HD downloading and on-demand services (if HD-DVD/Blu-ray take too long to grab market share, then these up and coming technologies could take over the market before the disc formats have a chance to supplant the DVD)

- introduction too soon after market transitioned over to DVD (the majority of households bought their first DVD player within the last four years; how many of them are already looking to upgrade and replace their video libraries?)

[westcott]

HDCP will also be required on all digital HD signals.

Guess how all those people with DVI displays that are not HDCP compliant will feel when they find this out.

[Eric Z]

this kinda crap is exactly why i'm perfectly comfortable sitting back and waiting for everyone to figure this stuff out. hopefully another year or so we weed out all of this uncertainty and start moving into the HD world- i wonder if prices will be affordable to the general public by then.

thanks for the post, paul!

[zepman1]

Well screw 'em all then. I'll just watch the HD pay per view movies from my cable company then. No equipment to buy, no HDMI cables, and no driving to the video store.

[westcott]

Well screw 'em all then. I'll just watch the HD pay per view movies from my cable company then. No equipment to buy, no HDMI cables, and no driving to the video store.

Unfortunately zepman1, most HD movie content does not look any better than a good 480p DVD player.

The only HD on cable\sat\OTA that looks like HD are live performances like football, live concerts, documentaries, and Jay Leno. Movie tranfers do not look any better than my DVD player.

I no longer participate in pay per view unless my NetFlix is not in and I am REALLY board.

[zepman1]

Really? I wasn't aware of this. I have not payed for any of the "HD" pay per view movies yet, but fully expected them to be 1080i or 720p resolution. I find it hard to believe that this is not the case... How can they call it HD if it is only 480p???

[westcott]

Really? I wasn't aware of this. I have not payed for any of the "HD" pay per view movies yet, but fully expected them to be 1080i or 720p resolution. I find it hard to believe that this is not the case... How can they call it HD if it is only 480p???

I guess the same way they get away with calling Standard Definition programming 480i.
They severly compress the signals to get as many programs as possible in a fixed bandwidth. The picture quality is severly degraded and macroblocking is the usual result. You can see it in dark scenes or where the screen is mostly all one color and appears as rectangles or square blocks. Once you are aware of them, they can really drive you crazy.

If you do not see them now, don't look for it because it will drive you crazy. I do not see it on HD but SD is riddled with it.

[edtyct]

The upconverted films on the glamour HD stations like HBO and Cinemax certainly don't look too special, but the films shown in true HD can look very good (leaving aside whether they have the correct aspect ratio), as can proprietary content like Deadwood. The quality of the source has to make a big difference. I've even seen the odd HD film on TNT that looked pretty good (LOR, as I recall). But nothing is as pristine and clean as DiscoveryHD, INHD, HDnet, and a few other gems. I remember hearing that certain satellite services were shortchanging HD because of they had so much programming to fit into limited bandwidth, but not much has come of the rumor.

[zepman1]

Guess I'll just have to see for myself. I have Time-Warner for my cable, and have generally been pleased with the content. SD shows leave a lot to be desired, but the HD conent is usually very good. I have seen a number of very good HD movies on TNT and HDMovies etc that were exceptional. I don't understand why the PPV HD movies would be an exception to this. The HD movies I watch from Time Warner are MUCH better than any 480p DVD (usually anyhow, there are exceptions).

[nightflier]

My apologies if this is from left field, but what about firewire? For those of us who went through the trouble of setting up a computer in their TV room, I'd like to know if I'll be able to record (and commercial-skip) my shows in HD with firewire, or if that's also going to be down-converted.

[r m]

The HD market is going to be an interesting area to watch over the next few years.

I agree with Woochifer that the general public will probably not be bothered with upgrading from a DVD player they have bought within the last five years (and which they are pretty happy with) to one that is a bit better. If they have just spent a significant amount of money setting up a home theatre they are even less likely to want to incur the extra expense and discard their current DVD player.

I expect that HD DVD players will not take off. I expect people will stick with their current DVD players for the next few years and in that time the market for movies will have moved to an online downloading model rather than the purchase of individual DVD's of films (I will be amused if this means that the companies developing HD DVD's have wasted their time).

[paul_pci]

My apologies if this is from left field, but what about firewire? For those of us who went through the trouble of setting up a computer in their TV room, I'd like to know if I'll be able to record (and commercial-skip) my shows in HD with firewire, or if that's also going to be down-converted.

Don't think the article mentioned firewire, but firewire is like HDMI in that it's an all digital connection, so it wouldn't surprise me if it fell under the same down conversion arrangements as HDMI, thus making it safe, I guess.

[nightflier]

Don't think the article mentioned firewire, but firewire is like HDMI in that it's an all digital connection, so it wouldn't surprise me if it fell under the same down conversion arrangements as HDMI, thus making it safe, I guess.

I sure hope so.

As a side note, it would be a tragedy if DVI goes the way of the Betamax. Outlaw audio, when pressed about why their new receivers/preamps only had DVI said that their decision was based on the additional problems they witnessed with HDMI. A couple months later they changed their tune a bit and recommended using adaptors. So I was wondering how this new HDCP standard would affect systems with adapters. Since the adapters are pretty much straight-through, the problem would really be inside the component (receiver/preamp).

I'm asking because my computer also has DVI and I could switch to that if Firewire is left in the dust as well. I guess I'm kind of hoping that if the industry abandons DVI (and Firewire) in favor of HDMI, maybe they won't mind that a small percentage of the customers who do use the alternate technologies are permitted to bypass HDCP.

Pipe dream?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If I am not mistaken firewire does not have the bandwidth to carry 1080P signals, and the new HD audio. Too many bits, not enough pipeline. HDMI is going to be the way HD video and audio are sent to you televisions. As long as your DVI connection is HDCP compliant, then you have no worries, a simple DVI to HDMI cable is all that is required.

[nightflier]

If I am not mistaken firewire does not have the bandwidth to carry 1080P signals, and the new HD audio. Too many bits, not enough pipeline. HDMI is going to be the way HD video and audio are sent to you televisions. As long as your DVI connection is HDCP compliant, then you have no worries, a simple DVI to HDMI cable is all that is required.

What about Firewire-800? Last I recall, it had twice the throughput of regular Firewire and no HDCP (at least not when it comes to computers). It was also being touted as one of the formats most applicable for HD-DVD type of data transfers because of its speed.

[nightflier]

Will this provide a work-around?

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_hsb600.html

According to the website:

HSB-600 HDMI-Link (available December, 2005) - The HDMI-Link™ is an advanced audio/video switcher and video format converter designed to integrate the video output from an advanced A/V receiver with the A/V output of two HDMI-capable digital A/V source units into an HDMI-capable video monitor or TV.

[paul_pci]

Will this provide a work-around?

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_hsb600.html

According to the website:

HSB-600 HDMI-Link (available December, 2005) - The HDMI-Link™ is an advanced audio/video switcher and video format converter designed to integrate the video output from an advanced A/V receiver with the A/V output of two HDMI-capable digital A/V source units into an HDMI-capable video monitor or TV.

I guess the question is: if the component cable signal, let's say going out from the high def dvd player, is down converted as per Hollywood's demands, and then "switched" through this gadget to an HDMI Cable, will the signal that went out downconverted then be upconverted back to 1080i/p? If the answer is no, then this doesn't represent a work around. If the answer is yes, then it would.

[nightflier]

I guess the question is: if the component cable signal, let's say going out from the high def dvd player, is down converted as per Hollywood's demands, and then "switched" through this gadget to an HDMI Cable, will the signal that went out downconverted then be upconverted back to 1080i/p? If the answer is no, then this doesn't represent a work around. If the answer is yes, then it would.

Actually, I would be interested in going in the other direction: from HDMI to component video at 1080i. If it can do that, it's got my vote, 'cause I'm really not looking forward to selling my TV just because it doesn't have HDMI.

I've emailed Sherwood, and have not received a response. I'm sure someone on this board will correct me, but I feel like I'm asking Robin Hood for help, here. Sherwood Newcastle doesn't sound like a high-tech company (sort of like those Castle speakers from AA a couple of years ago). Makes me wonder if their amps have wood cabinets, too. And I also noticed that none of their A/V products have HDMI or DVI connectors. Maybe that's why they're selling the converter?

So is this a decent company or am I going to get flamed by a bunch of elves in green tunics and feathers in their caps?

[paul_pci]

Actually, I would be interested in going in the other direction: from HDMI to component video at 1080i. If it can do that, it's got my vote, 'cause I'm really not looking forward to selling my TV just because it doesn't have HDMI.

I've emailed Sherwood, and have not received a response. I'm sure someone on this board will correct me, but I feel like I'm asking Robin Hood for help, here. Sherwood Newcastle doesn't sound like a high-tech company (sort of like those Castle speakers from AA a couple of years ago). Makes me wonder if their amps have wood cabinets, too. And I also noticed that none of their A/V products have HDMI or DVI connectors. Maybe that's why they're selling the converter?

So is this a decent company or am I going to get flamed by a bunch of elves in green tunics and feathers in their caps?

You know, I must have been drunk because going from component to HDMI makes no sense since the controversy over downconverting focuses on the TV's input, not the players output. My (drunken) bad. So yeah, that raises an interesting question. Can a converter trick the signal into non downconverting since component cables are capable of carring a 1080 bandwidth? Hopefully word might come out on this before it becomes a trial and error process for the consumer.

As for Sherwood, don't know exactly, but the "about us" link on their website says they've been in business since '53 so you gotta figure they're legit, even if you find their stuff to be cheap or on the cheap side.

Edit: Sherwood is a suburb of Chicago, so it probably has little to do with Robin Hood's ideological disposition.