FINALLY - Revel Performa Series 3

[Ajani]

Ajani and frenchmon

if you have heard the Paradigm Studio 100V2 then you have pretty much heard the S8. It's a 100V2 in nicer cabinetry - with only slight sonic differences. The big Paradigm dealer in my town in Canada sent the Sig line back because it wasn't better enough over the 100s and nobody bought them at 4 times the list price.

I wouldn't be too surprised. The S6 really didn't sound special to me.

I am not exactly sure what the fuss is over the looks of these speakers - they look like every other multi-way skinny box from a dozen other makers - not special in the least in the looks department. JMO.

Fair enough. I like the look, but truth is that it isn't really unique. Though I think that's the aim - to look more like what people expect. The old line was regarded by many as being too rectangular and boring. The new one is more like what people will expect

Rotel - depends on the Rotel - they're hardly bright in the Bryston or Anthem (which Paradigm owns) sense of the word. Rotel often tends to be a little less bright than your average SS amp maker - at least these days (they did go through some design changes the last 3-4 years (for the better).

I've never heard Bryston, but I always got the impression they had a more boring sound like NAD.

I don't regard Rotel as bright, just exciting. Changing from NAD to Rotel gave my previous setup the kick it needed to be fun to listen to.


P.S. I know you detest the sound of the Revels you've heard, but you might want to check out the M106. It's a Simply 2 way and the initial feedback from the reviewers has been very positive. Seems to have good dynamics.

When I heard the $1700-per-pair M106 bookshelf, I was taken aback by the slam and dynamics that these little speakers were capable of. They pumped out the bass of Seal’s “Killer” with gut-wrenching authority and they played extremely loud without breakup or other obvious distortions. The whistling and vocals on Livingston Taylor’s cover of “Isn’t She Lovely” were about as pure and uncolored as I have heard from any speaker at anywhere near this price.

Roger's Revel-ation

&

I heard the new Revel Performa3 M106 standmount speaker shown at CES that costs a mere $1700 per pair sound simply amazing -- a true budget reference. Therefore, for many, many times the Revel's cost, all of these Superspeakers should blow these cheap Revels away. Do they?

Superspeakers 2012: Surprising Results

[RGA]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.

Mike is usually bang on with his assessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.

[hyfynut]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

[Ajani]

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

LOL... I'm pretty sure Mr Peabody was just joking (he owned Dynaudio before upgrading to Revel Performa)...

[frenchmon]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

I have to totally disagree with you about the Salon2. The Pure Beryllium Dome tweeter was very smooth and clear and did not stick out. I just listened to that speaker for 3 hours straight a few weeks ago. It was being driven by a new Levinson amp and preamp and was just about perfect. I did think the presentation was a little more aggressive than the Studio which I also listen to for about 3 hours as well. It too has that same smooth tweeter and great presentation, only its not as aggressive and the Salons..

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.

Mike is usually bang on with his asseessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

I've heard the 3.5's as well. It a very good speaker.... Don't even see how you think that is a better speaker than the Salons.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.[/QUOTE]

[Ajani]

I have to totally disagree with you about the Salon2. The Pure Beryllium Dome tweeter was very smooth and clear and did not stick out. I just listened to that speaker for 3 hours straight a few weeks ago. It was being driven by a new Levinson amp and preamp and was just about perfect. I did think the presentation was a little more aggressive than the Studio which I also listen to for about 3 hours as well. It too has that same smooth tweeter and great presentation, only its not as aggressive and the Salons..



I've heard the 3.5's as well. It a very good speaker.... Don't even see how you think that is a better speaker than the Salons.

This is just another case of personal preference. RGA clearly prefers a different approach to sound.

[Feanor]

This is just another case of personal preference. RGA clearly prefers a different approach to sound.

That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

[Ajani]

That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

Yep. I really hope to get hear an all Audio Note System one day - perhaps I'll fall crazy in love with the sound. But AN is a totally different approach to design and sound than Revel.

Also, I'm not surprised that RGA doesn't like the Revel sound. Let's keep in mind that the reason for Audio Note's existence was that Peter Snell died and his replacement at Snell (Kevin Voecks - now Revel) took Snell speakers in a completely different direction. The desire of Peter Q (Audio Note) was to continue (what he believes to be) the spirit of Peter Snell's vision. So we're talking about two completely different design philosophies (and possibly even some rivalry). If Peter Q had been impressed by Kevin Voecks work then I doubt Audio Note would exist.

So as you rightfully said; we're comparing eccentric old school designs to modern SOTA designs. Which will sound better is up to the person doing the auditioning.

I really would love to do a shootout between a Revel/Mark Levinson System and all Audio Note system.

[frenchmon]

That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

Speaking of Audio Note....I've often wondered if their is a connection to Blue Note/Gold Note. Their speakers look a lot alike. XS-96

[frenchmon]

Oh...before I forget...Peabodys got some more changes to his system....its going to floor you guys. But I will let him make the announcement.

[Ajani]

Oh...before I forget...Peabodys got some more changes to his system....its going to floor you guys. But I will let him make the announcement.

I can't wait! How about a PM or at least a hint!!!

[Ajani]

Speaking of Audio Note....I've often wondered if their is a connection to Blue Note/Gold Note. Their speakers look a lot alike.

To be honest, I think that speaker looks more like Harbeth than Audio Note. Though all of them have the similarity of being wider than deep and requiring a low stand - which is a very old school design.

[Ajani]

CES 2012 Show Report - Stephen Hornbrook - SECRETS CAVE

[Ajani]

Two more images I can't get to load:

http://api.ning.com/files/UNPQW6VKiX...3/IMG_3031.JPG

http://api.ning.com/files/mlgpQ0Qpt1...h/IMG_3033.JPG

CES 2012 Show Report - Stephen Hornbrook - SECRETS CAVE

[RGA]

Yep. I really hope to get hear an all Audio Note System one day - perhaps I'll fall crazy in love with the sound. But AN is a totally different approach to design and sound than Revel.

Also, I'm not surprised that RGA doesn't like the Revel sound. Let's keep in mind that the reason for Audio Note's existence was that Peter Snell died and his replacement at Snell (Kevin Voecks - now Revel) took Snell speakers in a completely different direction. The desire of Peter Q (Audio Note) was to continue (what he believes to be) the spirit of Peter Snell's vision. So we're talking about two completely different design philosophies (and possibly even some rivalry). If Peter Q had been impressed by Kevin Voecks work then I doubt Audio Note would exist.

So as you rightfully said; we're comparing eccentric old school designs to modern SOTA designs. Which will sound better is up to the person doing the auditioning.

I really would love to do a shootout between a Revel/Mark Levinson System and all Audio Note system.

It's no secret that Peter didn't like what Voecks did to Snell's speakers - Peter was a Big dealer at the time and was so displeased he sent them all back to Snell (under voecks) and bought all of Snell's cabinets drivers and parts for the previous model).

I've heard a few speakers from Voecks and don't recall liking any of them. Snell went under under his watch and so did another company if memory serves. Peter Snell put Snell on the map - without him - it was mediocre drivel. They got press for some reason - The Snell B-Minor got a class B rating and the Snell A got class A - I think after I auditioned them and Commerical electronics demoed them and we hated them - that was about the time I stopped buying Stereophile. They had no clue I felt - but Dudley wasn't on board and I didn't know that class ratings were the decision of one guy - a guy that obviously liked the speakers that the dealer hated that I hated and the it seems everyone hated since they went belly up!

To me it's all style and using cool drivers and big box syndrome - and it just sounds so bad. Text book design maybe but it's pretty bad when I'd rather read the text book than listen to music on them.

To me the telling factor is always the hard sell on the technology - I always look sideways at something that is selling me with words - lots of words to describe the "tweeter" or the woofer cone material. Or selling me on spec sheets and measurements - if it had quality sound then who the hell cares what the tweeter is or the woofer.

And that's why a boring old rectangle box that was designed by L.L. Beranek (who every textbook on loudspeakers cites heavily) with two relatively basic drivers (air cooled no less), illustrates that pair matching and driver matching trumps diamonds and the like. (a reason they're better suited to dentist drills than loudspeaker tweeters).

I love the hobby but to me it is pretty telling when a boring old two way box with nothing overtly fantastical drivers running off old obsolete SE tube amplifiers and CD players closer in design to the ones that originally hit the market (though they sound nothing alike than goodness), can so easily best systems that advertise the hell out of their space age gimmickry that never sounds as good. It's actually absurd IMO.

Take the massive expensive JM Labs Focal Utopia - is it Focal or JM Labs - whatever they can't seem to decide on what the hell their name is. This is a statement uber speaker - and I am impressed - I was impressed at CES and the dealer that sells it - it's impressive.

The tweeter is amazing - it is open detailed not bright - it is in a word an amazing sounding tweeter. It also has amazing bass - it will blow you into next week - it is fast, clean and mostly free of itself. In every hi-fi way it's a hi-fi speaker - and to a lesser degree so is Revel, So is Paradigm so is B&W among others. And yet whatever magic there is in music has been gutted and minced away.

And it's not noticeable UNTIL you hear something better. There was a time not that long ago when I was ready to buy Bryston/B&W and or PMC. And I would have been in the Revel/JM Labs camp too. There is nothing wrong with the sound until you hear something so much better that you notice what it is about it that isn't doing it right.

And that is what AN does in my view. It is a major step up. So are others but they're even harder to bloody audition - Find a Trenner and Freidl dealer some place - lot's of luck.

The SS and on paper freak accurate speakers to a fault guy says it all General Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note Level 3 system Other by KevinF

[frenchmon]

To be honest, I think that speaker looks more like Harbeth than Audio Note. Though all of them have the similarity of being wider than deep and requiring a low stand - which is a very old school design.

Yeah...I wonder if Epos had that same idea in mind when the made the Epic and now the Elan. I must admit...that new Elan stand mount looks very cool on those strands.

[Ajani]

The New Revel Performa 3s | Stereophile.com

[frenchmon]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

[Ajani]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

It might just be a reflection.

[RGA]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

I can't pass that up.



That somebody needs a woman.

[Ajani]

I can't pass that up.



That somebody needs a woman.

LOL

[Ajani]

M106 with grill on:



More pics of each model in the line and a nice write up:
Revel Performa3 Loudspeakers Preview — Reviews and News from Audioholics

[Ajani]

Revel's Performa3 Speakers | Stereophile.com

[Ajani]

Looks like The Absolute Sound team were really impressed with the M106:

Best Sound (for the lowest price)
The all-new Revel M106, a two-way compact ($1700/pr. and driven by Levinson electronics) will be a game-changer for the aficionado short on space. Full-bodied, smooth, and dynamically responsive. In short, a small Revel-ation.

CES 2012 Report - Neil Gader on Solid-State Electronics Above $12,000 | AVguide

Best Sound (for the lowest price)
Revel’s new $1700 per pair stand-mounted M106 sounded like it should cost $5k. And the M106 is just one product in an eight-speaker line. Expect greatness at affordable prices when these loudspeakers are released in April.

CES 2012 Report - Robert Harley on Analog | AVguide

Soundstage also loved them:

There were several very expensive loudspeakers garnering a lot of buzz at this year's show. Based on what I saw and heard in the Harman room, the Revel Performa3 line is just as deserving of this attention. In fact, these were my favorite speakers at CES 2012.

Roger's Revel-ation

I heard the new Revel Performa3 M106 standmount speaker shown at CES that costs a mere $1700 per pair sound simply amazing -- a true budget reference.

Superspeakers 2012: Surprising Results

I can't wait to read some reviews!

[astrallite]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.

Mike is usually bang on with his assessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.

That's pretty interesting that you consider the BE10s better than the Salon 2s, considering that DMD tweeter isn't really anything special. It was reviewed here:


http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stori...kers_lores.pdf

Just like Usher's "beryllium" tweeter, which ended up being 99.9% titanium, their "DMD" tweeter has a breakmode at 24KHz and is likely some kind of metal/ceramic combination than real diamond, as a real diamond tweeter will have a breakup mode closer to 40KHz. These tweeters only cost $199/pair to purchase in Taiwan, with measured performance consistent with a tweeter in its price range compared to other OEM products, certainly not comparable with a real beryllium or diamond tweeter.

It should be worth noting that Usher's flagship speakers cost significantly less in Asia, close to 1/3 the cost they charge in Europe and the U.S. If they sold their products at their real domestic pricing, or even charged only a 50% premium instead of a 220%+ premium compared to Asia, they could be giant killers, but in the U.S. and European market for the price they offer below-average driver quality, no waveguides, but certainly beautiful cabinets.

Also I've compared the bookshelf in this price range (the BE-718) and it's comparable to the Performa series in performance, although I thought the M22 and M20 both had clearly superior woofers than the 8945A used in the Usher BE718, which has very fast rising THD below 80Hz, it's certainly not a product comparable to the Ultima range in measured performance, either in cabinet bracing, driver breakup modes, or driver directivity due to no waveguide.

I think what this shows is measured performance and individual preferences may certainly vary.