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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
The only consumer source of pure 1080p I'm aware of is BlueRay, all others do top out at 1080i which in worst case equals one half the information content of 1080p. In most cases the difference between 1080i and 1080p is small.
The difference between 1080i and 1080p is probably more apparent on larger screens than smaller TV. I had Sony HDTV (27HS420) and really could not tell difference between interlace or progressive signal from DVD player or from TV's internal progressive up converter.
But I am supposing on larger TVs (40+), the difference is more apparent especially with fast action scenes.
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The difference between interlaced and progressive is easily noticable on a tube set of 40". The progressive picture is a lot smoother and more natural. More details are evident because the picture overall looks better resolved. The difference between 480p and 1080i on a 40" tube set is also noticably different, but moreso when viewing native 1080i video programming. What is strange, is that even though I now have a set capable of higher resolution (the sony SXRD), when viewing HD material, there is something very natural and 'real' about the tube tv picture. The tube tv does not suffer from any 'noise'. Motion is much smoother. White levels and black levels are a little more natural looking to. Then again the SXRD set is 72", and thats a lot of screen for the scaling engine to manage.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
The difference between 1080i and 1080p is probably more apparent on larger screens than smaller TV. I had Sony HDTV (27HS420) and really could not tell difference between interlace or progressive signal from DVD player or from TV's internal progressive up converter.
But I am supposing on larger TVs (40+), the difference is more apparent especially with fast action scenes.
I think for still pictures the information content of 1080i and 1080p is identical irrespective of screen sizes.
O'Shag: I find LCD (or LCoS) to be stark and unnatural. I prefer DLP, but that technology seems to be dying. People seem enchanted by the "hang it on a wall" thin.
Maybe the organic LED will prove to be the inheritor of that CRT color smoothness and contrast. The older quite expensive plasmas seemed more film like than LCD to me, but price pressures have reduced the picture quality while keeping the other plasma limitations.
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Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in
interlaced material.
I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.
One question, do you think that 1080p OTA will ever happen, or will deinterlacing
1080i remain the norm?
Will the very slight advantage of a native progressive signal over one rendered from 1080i
ever be worth the extra bandwidth? :1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in
interlaced material.
I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.
One question, do you think that 1080p OTA will ever happen, or will deinterlacing
1080i remain the norm?
Will the very slight advantage of a native progressive signal over one rendered from 1080i
ever be worth the extra bandwidth? :1:
It's hard to know, transmitted HDTV will probably stay at 1080i because of radio spectrum bandwidth. Video over fiber or VDSL may improve. Currently there are cost issues. My first progressive DVD was $1,000 now they are $49.95 at WalMart
It's hard to imagine a better compressor, but if I knew the future I would have bought Microsoft stock in 1983 (10,000 to 1 return).
Generally equipment improves up to the specification limit over time. NTSC TV in the 1950's did not look as good as SDTV NTSC today.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Nice to hear an EE say that picture content suffers when theres movement in interlaced material. I have been arguing this with sir talky for ever.
I don't think any body denied that high motion scenes does suffer in interlace mode. What started all argument was statement you made that interlace picture is half resolution of progressive mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
It's hard to know, transmitted HDTV will probably stay at 1080i because of radio spectrum bandwidth/
There might be no reason to broadcast in 1080p if TV (or satellite/cable box) can internally deinterlace 1080i feed and reconstruct it back to 1080p. Especially if source is film base.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
I don't think any body denied that high motion scenes does suffer in interlace mode. What started all argument was statement you made that interlace picture is half resolution of progressive mode.
What I actually said was that an interlaced pic could lose up to half of its res if there
is movement, which is true.
YOU DONT HAVE ANY SUCH LOSS WITH A PROGRESSIVE FORMAT.
Deinterlacing 480i was the best thing you could do to it, as is the case with deinterlacing 1080i, because of elimination of interlacing artifacts
There might be no reason to broadcast in 1080p if TV (or satellite/cable box) can internally deinterlace 1080i feed and reconstruct it back to 1080p. Especially if source is film base.[/QUOTE]
What I beleive.
It will happen eventually, tho :1:
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I know theoretically 1080i is supposed to have possible artifacts in fast motion scenes but I don't think, and have never read, you only get half resolution. If your rez went 50% up and down, now that, would be noticeable. I've also had resolution debates with Pix and from researching different sources I found that even the "Pros" can't agree. One article gave a seemingly good explanation why you won't be able to see much difference between 1080i and 1080p. If I remember correctly, and I usually do :), the theory had something to do with 60Hz and frames per second, went mostly over my head. With BR now being able to do 60Hz and 24 frame I'm not sure if that article holds water any more. Logically, you'd think 1080p vs 1080i would be as much difference as 480p to 480i but logic doesn't seem to count in PQ. Also, my personal theory is your source and display, and their interaction between each other, is probably more critical than anything.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I know theoretically 1080i is supposed to have possible artifacts in fast motion scenes but I don't think, and have never read, you only get half resolution. If your rez went 50% up and down, now that, would be noticeable. I've also had resolution debates with Pix and from researching different sources I found that even the "Pros" can't agree. One article gave a seemingly good explanation why you won't be able to see much difference between 1080i and 1080p. If I remember correctly, and I usually do :), the theory had something to do with 60Hz and frames per second, went mostly over my head. With BR now being able to do 60Hz and 24 frame I'm not sure if that article holds water any more. Logically, you'd think 1080p vs 1080i would be as much difference as 480p to 480i but logic doesn't seem to count in PQ. Also, my personal theory is your source and display, and their interaction between each other, is probably more critical than anything.
24 fps and pixel for pixel is a hugh advance.
AND YOU CAN tell the diff, at least with 480i.
Other aspects of HD render it so good that minor res fluctuations go by the boards.
But I recall seeing computer generated (3D) logos for local news programs, always wondered why they looked so frigging good compared to the rest of the broadcast.
A lot of the operations of electronics are arcane to say the least, most is theory that works, until a better one comes along.
But its okay if your are dubious, I cant even get people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive :1:
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For the love of Gawd pix, it's huge not hugh !!! Please!!!
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I thought current flowed from East to West.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
For the love of Gawd pix, it's huge not hugh !!! Please!!!
I know, but with my typing you take what you can get, and a slight case of dyslexia doesnt help ( a man walked into a bra...) :1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I thought current flowed from East to West.
Noooooooo!!! Okay, if you have a meter that reads AC or DC or Ohms or whatever, look at the probe connection jacks. Notice that the black ground jack is on the left and the red "hot" jack is on the right. Sooooo, current flows from left to right! :rolleyes:
FINALLY!!! Something I know that these audio eggheads don't! :23:
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I hate to be picky (Not true, I love being picky). Electrons flow from negative to positive, current flows from positive to negative. So you can have it both ways.
Current is a flow of holes (places where electrons are missing) yes it's obtuse, blame the physicists.
http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/murphy/Hole...tricFluid.html
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Mr. Irwin, my high school electric shop teacher got pretty angry with me when I answered a test question with what I posted above. That's the honest to Gawd truth. On the bench's instrument panel in front of me, the voltmeter had the banana jacks with the ground connection on the left and the positive connection on the right. I did ultimately pass the test though. :o
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
Mr. Irwin, my high school electric shop teacher got pretty angry with me when I answered a test question with what I posted above. That's the honest to Gawd truth. On the bench's instrument panel in front of me, the voltmeter had the banana jacks with the ground connection on the left and the positive connection on the right. I did ultimately pass the test though. :o
Oh yeah? What about on the other side of the equator - huh, huh? :) :) :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
I hate to be picky (Not true, I love being picky). Electrons flow from negative to positive, current flows from positive to negative.
hermanv, stop being so picky :D
In electronic schematic labeling, by default the direction of current (+ to -) is shown as oppose to direction of electrons (- to +). This way negative or ground can be used as a reference point (0 V).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
In electronic schematic labeling, by default the direction of current (+ to -) is shown as oppose to direction of electrons (- to +). This way negative or ground can be used as a reference point (0 V).
Does your handle refer in any way to what you do for relaxation? :D :D :D
Seriously though, the highest voltage is usually drawn on top. For the majority of designs that is the positive supply (like in all tube circuits). For telephony -48VDC is the highest voltage so it is drawn on top. Unseasoned fresh graduates often draw it with negative 48V on the bottom, they are sneered at by old hands.
The telephony people learned quickly that buried wire dissolved due to electrolysis when the minus battery terminal was grounded. By tying th positive terminal to ground the -48V on the buried cables causes the conductors to slowly get bigger.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
Does your handle refer in any way to what you do for relaxation? :D :D :D
That is for me to know, and for you to find out :p
Quote:
For telephony -48VDC is the highest voltage so it is drawn on top. Unseasoned fresh graduates often draw it with negative 48V on the bottom, they are sneered at by old hands
That make sense too, as again 0 Volts (ground) is used as the reference. The only difference is that current flow is now reversed and hopefully new graduate label it as so. Current now flow from the ground :)
Quote:
The telephony people learned quickly that buried wire dissolved due to electrolysis when the minus battery terminal was grounded. By tying th positive terminal to ground the -48V on the buried cables causes the conductors to slowly get bigger.
That is interesting. When you are refering to -48DCV battery terminals, is ground (0V) positive or negative terminal?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
Oh yeah? What about on the other side of the equator - huh, huh? :) :) :)
"Warning, warning!" "Danger, danger!" "Danger Will Robinson!" "That does not compute!" "That does not compute!" :crazy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
That is for me to know, and for you to find out :p
"The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
<snip>
That is interesting. When you are refering to -48DCV battery terminals, is ground (0V) positive or negative terminal?
Sorry I wasn't clear. Occasionally in the rush to post a reply you say what seems quite clear at the time and when you look at it later it was crap.
If you ground the negative terminal all the telephony wires end up positive with respect to Earth ground, so if the negative battery terminal was grounded the wires slowly dissolved. For modern telephony the positive battery terminal is the one that's grounded, leaving the wires with a net negative charge.
To understand what's going on, loop up electroplating. Atoms (Ions actually) are leached from the positive electrode and deposited on the negative electrode. In this case when the battery negative terminal was grounded, copper was removed from the wires and distributed into the dirt surrounding the cable and when the battery positive terminal was grounded, atoms moved from the dirt to the wires.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
""The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:
Saw that thread and reason I didn’t participate was that haven’t seen previews or the movie, so really didn’t know what to say. If you see it, please give us a review in FF :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
If you ground the negative terminal all the telephony wires end up positive with respect to Earth ground, so if the negative battery terminal was grounded the wires slowly dissolved. For modern telephony the positive battery terminal is the one that's grounded, leaving the wires with a net negative charge.
To understand what's going on, loop up electroplating. Atoms (Ions actually) are leached from the positive electrode and deposited on the negative electrode. In this case when the battery negative terminal was grounded, copper was removed from the wires and distributed into the dirt surrounding the cable and when the battery positive terminal was grounded, atoms moved from the dirt to the wires.
Learn something new everyday. Thanks for info.
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Like I said, I EVEN HAVE TROUBLE getting people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive (which is the case) :1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
"Warning, warning!" "Danger, danger!" "Danger Will Robinson!" "That does not compute!" "That does not compute!" :crazy:
"The truth will set you free" :biggrin5: Hey Smokey, how 'bout participating in my Iron Man... thread? I might just go see it tomorrow night. I think it's getting pretty good reviews. :thumbsup:
It is, and Paltrows legs are getting even better reviews:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Like I said, I EVEN HAVE TROUBLE getting people to beleive that current flows from negative to positive (which is the case) :1:
Current flows from positive to negative, electrons flow from negative to positive.
http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/murphy/Hole...tricFluid.html
Actually no one cares. :)
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