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AHAHAHAHAH!!!! damn guys, i just spent the last 20 minutes reading this thread. (Save all the incomprehensible **** import101 has been posting ;))
Now, I have just one thing to say to Import101: PWNED!
Get the hell out of here you troll, you think we'd enjoy dicussing AUDIO on an AUDIO forum if we didn't know as much about AUDIO as those pimple faced kids at CC?
I should know, as a 15 year old who probably knows more about sales/negotiating/audio than you'll ever know, it is very amusing to read this. I've been to BB, CC, Future Shop and all those other stores, and just for a spot on fun I like to chat with a sales rep. and talk to them about audio and laughing at how little they know.
Now go away troll, go find a new board to bash members on.
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Markw and thekid both good points. Markw as far as going in there and having the bass blasting a way that actually has to do directly with the management. Customers have asked sales associates to turn it down and they do. Five minutes later a manager will walk by and tell them to crank it up because they think thats what attracts customers into that area. Thekid as far as updating the stores, that has been a topic employees had talked about for years. The response was it cost to much money and wouldnt make that big of a difference. The tv s at bb and cc are both on loops, or just satellite. Select demos are ran on dvds. Basically to show off a better picture. Yes it sucks not having ota tv, dvds, and hd tv all to one tv to show the differences for customers. The cost is the issue once again.
As far as Audio dude or whatever, I came on here just to talk about some issues about cc city and the firing. There s no talk what so ever about audio on this page. Maybe the other sections are talking about audio but this one is talking about circuit city, and their poor decision. If your so smart though why go into the stores to supposedly show off your skills? Or how much you know? Do you really think anyone cares? Cause half those sales people laugh at you when you leave. The only people your impressing are people like your self who go online to brag about it. Which means you could continously lie and people would believe your little stories. So if you dont like me talking about cc city or tearing into people who tore into me, then mind your own business. And lastly, sorry once again for my incorrect grammar cause apparently all of you are perfect at it.
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I should know, as a 15 year old who probably knows more about sales/negotiating/audio than you'll ever know, it is very amusing to read this. I've been to BB, CC, Future Shop and all those other stores, and just for a spot on fun I like to chat with a sales rep. and talk to them about audio and laughing at how little they know.
Seriously your statement right there shows, how little you know. And hey way to use another members comment as your own, cause you find it empowering to jump on the band wagon.
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I d love to meet half of you in real life and see what you really have to say to people face to face I mean its pretty easy to hide behind your key board, look up info the post it as something you know. I joined this web page cause I thought it would be fun to chat about audio, talk to people about their opinions on different things. But apparently you all share one opinion. That is- you all are smarter than any one else, especially pimple faced kids at cc......lol
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Just so you all know. I did not get on here to put people down. I did not get on here to say I was smarter than anyone. I got on here and responded to someones generalization of a group of workers. Now if you cant see that or understand that because of my failure to put a coma there or a period here, all that shows is a communication problem. When you feel that correcting my grammar is the way to correct me or show that I am incorrect your wrong. What your showing is your own inability to communicate with those around you. Writing is now always meant to be grammatically correct, those are just rules. Like any other rule everyone breaks it. Just cause I may not share the ability all of you do by using correct grammar does not mean I dont have a point or a thought. Thats what you have assumed. In retaliation you have used my grammar as a negative. What all of you didnt realize was my grammar has nothing to do with anything. You can claim it makes it hard for you to understand my thoughts, but it just shows you cant communicate with those around you. I can express my self verbally to each and everyone of you and you would understand, yet when I wrote it out you couldnt. I only stood up against someone that made a generalization, because to me it stupid. If you want to generalize a type of worker you might as well generalize races, athletes, and countries. You would be the same as someone that said africans use sounds as a language there fore we are superior because they communicate like animals(which is not my belief). You d be the same to say that because a particular asian persons name is ping pong that asian s throw pots against a wall to make names for their children. Thats how broad that generalization of "pimple faced employees was...." Now if you like to associate with that type of crowd so be it.
Lastly, If all of you think that Im a idiot or a pimply faced sales associate then why respond. If my words are that ridiculous then any smart person would have just ignored them and not responded to them. But while claiming you all were smarter then me and others, you failed to prove you were. Instead you proved you were as stupid as you think I am if not further down the pole. If you d like to continue to beat up on my words and use them to make me look like a fool please do.
But check this out, most the people I have agreed with on this thread also put me down for various reasons. But I still pointed out that they had a good point backed up by a good argument. Yet none of you did anything at all but gang up on one person who had a different view.
Lastly, if your going to put up post about circuit city and others and say well they are doing this wrong, make sure your not stealing the words your using from local newspapers and online news articles. And if your going to use those articles you should at least give respect to the people who wrote them, and not allow every one to assume you thought it up yourself. Cause many of you so far have stolen articles and not given reference to the real author, instead you quoted them as your own.
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And sorry about the two lastly's I screwed up.
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as much as I wanna post here and put an end to Peru's usual/nagging replies, I simply dont wanna read all this crap.
Hey imported101,
it's just Peruvian. You will learn about him more if you'll stick around longer. But you gotta try to stay calm. Regular members here dont like newbies arguing again them. We can be a bit arragant from time to time.
Just wait until Resident Loser gets here...
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Kid, a word of advice.
You talk too much and say too little. Up the content to word ratio.
And, yes, your writing style is an indication of your education and experience, the two main things that count here. People don't usually crack on grammar or spelling (unless it's totally out of hand) but reading posts should not be an onerous task, and your shotgunwordswithnobreaksbetweenthoughts style makes it so. Heck, I give up after the first two-three lines and I don't feel I'm missing anything.
If you can't (or won't even bother to) communicate your thoughts clearly and concisely, you come off as a child that lacks the skills the real world expects of an adult. Why should anyone bother?
And, people here don't mind arguments. Heck, we thrive on them. They just prefer them presented in a coherent manner, not sheer babbling., Try dazzling us with brilliance rather than trying to baffle/impress with jumbled word count, which reeks of BS. If salespeople there and use of this this technique on the customers is common, I can see what precipitated this action.
And, I can safely say that virtually anyone who has been here for more than a few moths and has been paying attention DOES know more than virtually anyone at Circuit City, Best Buy, and the rest of the big box stores. An educated consumer is not in those stores best interest. It only takes a few minutes for an educated consumer to see through the hype and lose all respect for the salesperson and the chain.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imported101
I should know, as a 15 year old who probably knows more about sales/negotiating/audio than you'll ever know, it is very amusing to read this. I've been to BB, CC, Future Shop and all those other stores, and just for a spot on fun I like to chat with a sales rep. and talk to them about audio and laughing at how little they know.
Seriously your statement right there shows, how little you know. And hey way to use another members comment as your own, cause you find it empowering to jump on the band wagon.
What the f*cking hell are you talking about??
Please elaborate how my statement shows in any way how little knowledge i posses?
And please explain your second statement also, it does not make sense to me. And since when have I found it empowering to "jump on the bandwagon"?
Man, lost your reputation before you even got it! GET A LIFE! Why oh why do you come back and write post after post of meaningless nonsense that no one reads!
It's people like you that drive me INSANE! :incazzato:
*eye twitches*
Someone PLEASE get me a beer.
(PS. It looks like Import101 found the comma key!)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
And, I can safely say that virtually anyone who has been here for more than a few moths and has been paying attention DOES know more than virtually anyone at Circuit City, Best Buy, and the rest of the big box stores. An educated consumer is not in those stores best interest. It only takes a few minutes for an educated consumer to see through the hype and lose all respect for the salesperson and the chain.
Also to be fair here, most salespersons (even those with higher knowledge) probably are persuaded to act in store’s best interest. Promoting Monster cable might a good example.
Salesperson might be well aware of all hypes surrounding cable issues, but probably will be persuaded to push Monster cables as it will make money for store. He/she will tell you Monster cables are best even if they don’t believe it themselves.
I have met salespersons in BB or CC that were knowledgeable and working their way thru college, and have met some that would make a better Usher than saleperson :D
With recent CC firing, we might see more of latter than the former.
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holding back...
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Originally Posted by Smokey
Also to be fair here, most salespersons (even those with higher knowledge) probably are persuaded to act in store’s best interest. Promoting Monster cable might a good example.
Salesperson might be well aware of all hypes surrounding cable issues, but probably will be persuaded to push Monster cables as it will make money for store. He/she will tell you Monster cables are best even if they don’t believe it themselves.
I have met salespersons in BB or CC that were knowledgeable and working their way thru college, and have met some that would make a better Usher than saleperson :D
With recent CC firing, we might see more of latter than the former.
Smokey, you bring up a very good point and it made me think back to my days as a salesperson. I wanted to chime in with this thought...
When a person walks into CC or BB or whever...it's not obvious to a salesperson what that persons knowledge base is. The salesperson can only assume that the customer has little or no knowledge about the product, which is why they are there to help them out. Usually in conversation you can sometimes tell if a customer is knowledgable or not, but not all the time. Therefore, it becomes difficult to know what and how much to talk to them. There is a saying in the sales business that usually goes something like this...you want to give the customer enough to make them want something, but not too much that they don't. In other words: you don't want to oversell the product.
Let's use your example on Monster Cables. When I walk into BB or CC I see a huge selection of cables, but they are usually about 3 brands. Monster, Acoustic Research, and RocketFish. The best out of these 3 is probably Monster and they probably make BB or CC the most amount of profit. In fact, I know that they do. So the salesman needs to push these with every HDTV they sell or every HT they sell. These are easy add-on sales and sometimes goes into their commission sales. Since BB or CC does not carry anything higher-grade they are faced with a decision. Do I tell them that there are better cables out there and that they could probably save money elsewhere? Or make some profit for my company? Does this person really honestly care about small levels of quality? The majority of the people that they deal with don't care as much as we do here at this site. We are the rare people that sometimes frequent these stores and give them a run for their money because we are informed about these products, sometimes more than them and most often alot more than them.
However, they do not know that just by looking at us. An Audiophile doesn't have a big huge sign pointing to us...although we might be walking around with Grado Headphones all the time. I would also have to venture that most companies do not properly educate the salespeople and is more concerned about the bottom line. They (the company) does not really care WHAT the salesperson says as long as they meet their numbers. It's a cruel environment and both sides really lose out in the end.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imported101
I d love to meet half of you in real life and see what you really have to say to people face to face I mean its pretty easy to hide behind your key board, look up info the post it as something you know. I joined this web page cause I thought it would be fun to chat about audio, talk to people about their opinions on different things. But apparently you all share one opinion. That is- you all are smarter than any one else, especially pimple faced kids at cc......lol
You can look me up and even give me a call if you like :)
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uh-oh, FLO's here... better run import101 ;)
(hey, that rhymes!)
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Wow, never knew that Circuit City of all things could engender such passion for grammatical correctness! :cool:
Anyway, Circuit City's been circling the drain for sometime now. They got caught with their figurative pants down when Best Buy moved in on their entry level markets with bigger stores and a generally better shopping experience, and they did not stock a high enough level of product to support a commissioned sales staff.
When they moved their commissioned staffers over to hourly a few years ago, the consensus was that their already shaky customer service took a nose dive. Lots of unseasoned sales reps on the floor to go along with the bitter workers that stayed behind. Not a good combination. Right now, they're in a bad situation -- they lose money by continuing their existing operations, or cutting labor costs by further eroding their customer service and sales staff.
And Circuit City's not the only chain that tried this. The now-defunct Good Guys carried product lines a step above what CC and BB stocked. When they started bleeding red ink a few years ago, they kept only their top performing commissioned sales reps and laid off everybody else. That also created a schizophrenic shopping environment where the customer had no idea if they would get an experienced and competent sales rep, or some kid that just got hired that afternoon.
In actuality, the whole retail consumer electronics market is in a major transition, and that really affects the labor pool all the way from the manufacturing that's been outsourced overseas to the sales reps who continue to move further down the pecking order as retailers trade off on their customer service to reduce costs.
Right now, the size of the home audio component market is only about 1/3 of what it was in 1992 (in constant dollars). A lot of this is simply cost cutting (and increases in productivity) by the manufacturers, but a lot of it is also the ongoing transition to mobile and portable audio. Before they laid off most of their commissioned sales staff, Good Guys used to put their most experienced sales reps into home audio, because that market had the most demanding customers (and the highest margins). The newly hired sales reps were forced to work portable electronics -- less demanding customers but thinner margins. If you look at the market now, the fastest growing (and largest) segment is portable audio, while the market for home audio components continues to shrink. With those trends, it's easy to see how a corporate bean counter might view experienced sales staff as expendable, despite the havoc it creates at the customer service end.
The reality is that consumer electronics stores have fewer and fewer areas where they can still maintain sizable margins. The independent stores long ago went to home installation services to keep their storefronts open (components sales alone were far from enough to cover the overhead), and sales of flat panel TVs sustained the regional chains for a while. With flat panel TV margins falling rapidly, and even Best Buy (through its Magnolia subsidiary) now offering home installation services, retailers are once again struggling to find a niche that can support their operations.
Now, with the demise of Good Guys, Tweeter about to close 1/3 of its stores (including all of its California locations), CompUSA about to close 1/2 of its stores, and Circuit City struggling, it seems like it's all about Best Buy. Aside from their big box locations, they also own the Seattle-based Magnolia Audio Video chain (which they acquired in 2000), where they learned a lot about how to sell and cater to higher end consumers. Those standalone locations still retain their commissioned sales reps, and BB has now opened Magnolia Home Theater ministores across the country inside existing Best Buy stores. The Magnolia ministores differ from the larger standalone stores in that the sales reps that work at the ministores are paid hourly, but are paid more than the sales reps that work the Best Buy side of the floor.
It would truly be a sign of the times if Best Buy ever wound up closing the standalone Magnolia locations (by consolidating everything into their big box stores) and laying off the commissioned sales staff, despite how Best Buy didn't even have a presence in the higher end markets until they acquired the Magnolia brand and store locations.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio_dude
uh-oh, FLO's here... better run import101 ;)
(hey, that rhymes!)
OMG... that is the sickest flo' I've heard in my life!!!
Feel free to call yourself ADeeRA from this day forward.
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Just a quick update to this post. Our business section in the local paper did a quick article about this move. They mentioned that anyone making 51 cents per hour more than the normal CC wage was let go. I know in business every penny counts but you have to wonder if someone making $4-$10 a day more than someone else in the store is going to provide the "bang for your buck" that is going to turn the ship around. In the article it said officials from CC have countered the arguement that the cuts mean that less experienced audio/video salespeople will not hurt the company because most people get their audio/video advice/knowledge on the internet and do not need the help of salespeople like they used to in the past. I guess places like this site are really behind the downfall of the audio/video retail store........... :)
The article also quoted an expert in the audio retail business as saying that the store will be hard pressed to properly train the replacement workers in time for the holiday buying season and if they hire any of these people back their morale will be through the floor which might lead to associates performing poorly or somehow sabotaging the company. 3 fired associates have already filed a age discrimination law suit which most likely won't go anywhere because I suspect the demographics of the workers fired will be too wide to prove age discrimination but still CC will have to pay lawyers etc to fight what I am sure will be the first of many labor lawsuits. When you take into consideration the negative publicity, legal costs and lost sales/productivity related to the new sales staff this thing looks like a net loser for the company and is going to cost them more money in the long run.
My guess is that we will see some new ad campaign and probably some huge discounts being offered at CC in an attempt to get back some positive PR. Failing in that attempt and a less than positive holiday sales season next year we could see CC close a lot of stores within the next year.
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Or, another possible alternative
Being a publicly held company, they answer to their shareholders who invest in them and want (and deserve) profits for that. And, as a company should, it's main goal is to deliver that and if that means taking a hard look at how they fare in the current economy and make changes to adjust towards their main goal, then so be it..
What if, hypothetically, they simply gave in to the Internet and made that the main thrust of their marketin?
They could spiff up their web site, lower prices a little, downsize their traditional retail outlets big time and make them more of a plain warehouse/regional distribution center where they either ship out/deliver locally or allow customer pick ups. Oh, maybe offer custom home and auto-sound installations via appointment, but as far as the mega-stores with glitzy showrooms go, nah! Dinosaurs.
Of course, they might retain a small showroom with a token sales force (mainly for order taking) but with their main sales being done on the Internet, there's more potential for profit.
After all, in the scheme of American business thrir latest move doesn't really amount to a drop in the bucket for the American economy. Less than 100 people were affected here in New Jersey. While I don't really like any of my fellow Americans losing jobs, almost nothing they sell is made in the US of A and all they are is the final stage in the distribution of foreign made goods, which only serve to keep people in other countries employed.
Having been a steel worker in the late 70's, I've been there and have limited sympathy for people currently facing the reality of the global economy that I had to deal with twenty-five years ago. I didn't see any gnashing of teeth when the whole of the American consumer electronics industry was offshored overthe past thirty or more years. Likewise the auto manufacturing business. Why worry about a few unskilled salespeople now?
The horse is already ourt of the barn and he ain't coming back.
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Kinda sorry to hear you say that
Quote:
Originally Posted by markw
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Having been a steel worker in the late 70's, I've been there and have limited sympathy for people currently facing the reality of the global economy that I had to deal with twenty-five years ago. I didn't see any gnashing of teeth when the whole of the American consumer electronics industry was offshored overthe past thirty or more years. Likewise the auto manufacturing business. Why worry about a few unskilled salespeople now?
The horse is already ourt of the barn and he ain't coming back.
Another person would have more, not less, sympathy on account of having had your experience. And of course there was plenty of nashing of teeth -- but everyone went out and voted Reagan anyway: more fool them. When will Americans learn? (Speaking as a Canadian, maybe if Americans learn, we eventually will too despite the fact we're slower.)
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don't be.
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Originally Posted by Feanor
Another person would have more, not less, sympathy on account of having had your experience. And of course there was plenty of nashing of teeth -- but everyone went out and voted Reagan anyway: more fool them. When will Americans learn? (Speaking as a Canadian, maybe if Americans learn, we eventually will too despite the fact we're slower.)
I was in my early 30's and it forced me to rethink my options and my future. I retrained into a more technical field and did better than I ever imagined I could do as a steelworker. I'm sure these people can and will do the same once.
But, at least as far as home audio/consumer electronics goes, this trend towards off-shoring went back to the late 60's and early 70's. Steel came much, much later in the time-line. By the early 70's, virtually all the big names in audio were manufactured overseas, save McIntosh. TV's were all on their way by then and by the 80's, you couldn't find a TV or mass-market stereo manufactured here.
In fact, now the offshore countries are finding that their manufacturing jobs are being outsourced to other developing countries who pay even less than they do, like China,
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MarkW - Not really gnashing my teeth over this because it has become all too common place-my post was really to reflect on the absurdity of the move.
But reflecting on some of your comments I agree that the shareholders deserve a profit but as I alluded to in my first post on this subject, moves such as the one made by CC are usually all about Wall Street and the shareholders. They tend to give the appearance of managing a company when it is really a short-term/short sighted approach which in the long run hurts the shareholders. Some of the approaches you mention make sense over the long term but do not provide the "sizzle" that Wall Street often likes to see when a company looks to re-structure or change direction.
As for your comment "Why worry about a few unskilled salespeople" I think that despite what any of us does for a living that we should be concerned when we see moves such as the one done here by CC. While organized labor certainly has its faults and in a many ways can be held just as responsible for management for the loss of the industrial base in America they often served the function of protecting the average worker from the whims of management. In America we have all in a sense become "unskilled sales people" because we have become a service economy and with advances in technology almost any job can be outsourced. I understand the realities of the global economy and the pressure that it puts on the economy but as Feanor alluded to we need our politicians to take a serious look at how our economic policies fit into the global picture or we will all find ourselves re-applying for our same jobs whenever the global economy shifts a little.
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Cc isn't a service industry.
It's a retail store. And, this CC thing isn't even the tip of the iceberg. Actually, it's not even the iceberg.
And, you're right about the politicians having to do something about the "common worker" and a living wage.
Whatever happened to that concept of a "living wage" anyway?
Well, it seems that as long as there are people willintg to work for less $$, people tendd to look the other way. And. even more to the issue, businesses actually encourage it. After a while, it becomes an ingrained part of how business operates and by the time this happens, the wage base has been destroyed.
Look at your landscapers. Who do they hire? Look at your restaurants? Who busses tables? Other examples abound but these just corssed my path today. Do you really think if these positions paid a living wage they would have to resort to this?
No, if we can't manufacture products here cheap enough, we have them made overseas. Look at Wal Mart. China's main outlet here in the states. ..and their lot is packed with people willing to send their money there.
Now, who forces these prices down? We do. By going someplace where you can save a few pennies.
And this hobby is most ceretainly responsible for a lot of this, particularly where Circuit City is concerned. How many times do you se somebody asking where's the cheapest place to buy such and such. Odds are they went and saw said item in CC, BB or the like but rather than pay a price that can keep the B & M afloat, they go internet and save a few dollars. And, before someone says they charge too much and/or make too much money, I suggest you see what their actual profit margins are and the costs involved in running a B & M.
And, if we can't get locals to work cheap enough, we encourage an influx of, let's just say, "undocumented workers" who will work for less. you can see them massed at certain locations artound towns. Pickup trucks drive up, they pile in and off they go. I replaced my landscaper when he said he used illegal, errr... , make that undocumentented, aliens. And, then they petition for the same rights and priviliges as the locals? Actually, more when you figure in free medical care, bilingual schools and the rest.
Even hospitals are doing this, although I don't think they use illegals per se. I do know that they dress up barely skilled labor in scrubs and they have them doing a lot of chores that were hostoricaly performed by nurses in the past. I do some tutoring in a local school that trains these "health aids" and, lemmetellya, they aren't anywhere near what is expected of a nurse.
And you wonder why wages have dropped off the charts?
So, bottom line is that if you want a future, you better be damn good at what you do and make sure it can't be done over the internet.
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Quote:
So, bottom line is that if you want a future, you better be damn good at what you do and make sure it can't be done over the internet
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Agreed!
I know CC is not considered part of the service industry but I basically boil things down to either you produce a tangible product (manufacturing) or you don't (service). With the advent of the internet the only edge your traditonal retail outlets have is the service/convenience they provide.
You are right about prices we are willing to pay and the long term effects. I don't know where it will all end but I think cheap prices and cheap labor will chase itself all over the world until we eventually settle into some sort of equalibrium but I think it is going to be a long and painful process.
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I see this move as a continuation of the layoffs they did a few years ago. Basically all my friends that survived those original layoffs were then grandfathered in at hourly rates equal to their hourly comission average. This was at the same time that CC moved all salespeople to hourly wages. All of the people I know who were just layed off in this latest round were the same ones who were at those grandfathered rates. A few of them had just made 10 years with the company about 6 months ago.
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It still seems that nobody's really gotten to the heart of the matter here. Circuit City posted an almost 16 million dollar loss last quarter. Being publicly owned, they simply had no choice but to take any drastic measures possible to try and keep the doors open. The business model utilized by Circuit City could no longer compete with companies who paid employees less. Americans chose to favor the competitor who paid their employees less and again brought down the wages of an entire industry.
Do you blame Circuit City who tried to stick with a more traditional business model and paid employees better? Do you blame the competition who never cared about paying employees well for forcing Circuit City to change in order to remain in business? Really, you can blame us consumers for continuing to do business with those enslaving Americans. Some people tried to warn us, but we didn't fully understand the importance of what they were saying. Now, as slave wages have become the norm in many industries and most of the "good guys" have been put out of business... we find saving this country would be a much more difficult task...
"I don't know where it will all end but I think cheap prices and cheap labor will chase itself all over the world until we eventually settle into some sort of equalibrium..."
The "eqalibrium" will be serfs dominated by an elite as is the case throughout much of the world today and throughout history. The Constitution and all American law is based on NATIONALISM. "Globalism" and "corporatism" are treasonous, criminal lies being used to steal the USA and enslave the population. People are voting for slavery with their dollars. American workers are being forced to "compete" with SLAVES for jobs both here and abroad. How the heck can you compete with an oppressed slave for a job without becoming one? You just can't... The end result of all this will be tyranny as enjoyed by the populations of other countries today and throughout the ages. This will be the "equalibrium" if somebody doesn't stand up and defend freedom, The Constitution, nationalism, and American law.
Also, it's easy to pay unfairly low wages without fear of being unable to fill the jobs when "our" government treasonously does nothing to prevent a massive foreign invasion and resulting surplus of 3rd world slave labor.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/arti...assamnesty.htm
(this is older, but the amnesty bill is going up again now)
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Royphil
Don't disagree with you.
One of the points I was trying to make was that the cost cutting always seems to start at the bottom. Understandably they constitute the largest share of the work force but when companies make these moves they never seem to be proportionate. The gap keeps widening.......
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