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  1. #1
    Ajani
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    B&W to be sold in Best Buy

    The time has come:

    B&W will be sold at Magnolia Stores (Best Buy's.... ummm... 'High End Division') in North America. If I'm not mistaken B&W is already sold in the recently launched Best Buy stores in the UK...

    I know we've had many debates in these forums in the past about whether high end brands should be sold in the big chain stores, but what do you all think about the move by B&W?

    http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-ne...-magnolia.html

    IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...

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    The B&W chairman is exactly right! With the recession killing so many Hi-End stores, it would be a good opportunity for the "mass market people" to get a true taste of Hi-End sound. As some of you already know, you can walk outside any Best Buys and find a car system that has $5 to $10k of audio equipment/ installation cost. Wouldn't you, as a Hi-Fi company want to expose that guy to Hi- End audio at an early age. I hope that more Hi-Fi's will follow B&W's example.

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    WOW, I would love to go and check them out when they have them. They look very good. B&W has never disappointed me!

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    Ajani, I agree

    IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi...

    I went to a home audio boutique in Austin,TX over the weekend. I was wanting to listen to the IKON 6 but the dealer only had entry level bookshelves from Dali and a few other brands. No way in such small confines and limited cash could he afford to have various floor models to demo. Of course the big box stores have the space, cash, and diversity of other product sales to offset the $$ needed for higher end inventory costs.

    I then visited what once was a posh high performance audio store, Modia. Much to my surprise they no longer carry Meridian and Dynaudio. 3 of their once dedicated show rooms were either empty or were a staging area for cardboard boxes. Other dedicated showrooms only had one system. The down economy in general sure has hit this small audio chain pretty hard. They now only carry B&W speakers.

    My friend who once had a thriving high performance audio shop based out of his home here in S.A.,TX, only gets a call or two from a customer every few week... for all intents and purposed, his biz is dead and buried.

  5. #5
    RGA
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    The concern I have with such moves for the company is that once they leave the high end stores the high end stores will right them off as home theater junk. Whether they believe it or not won't be the issue - B&W will not likely be able to "go back" to the high end dealers.

    And maybe the thinking is no big deal but it could come up and bite them in the butt. Why? because big billion dollar box chains make demands and usually those demands are to lower prices. If B&W comes in there with $3,000 standmounts chances are no one is going to bite. Not enough anyway. Best Buy and Future Shop will not put up with carrying lines of products that don't move in mass quantities - those chains are ONLY interested in moving as many boxes as fast as humanly possible. They will want the price dropped to $1200 and then $800 and B&W is going to have to sell at those prices. That could mean cutting corners and cheaping out.

    Here in Western Canada Totem was not selling well at all in high end shops. Competition is too good. So they went into A&B Sound a large big box chain and I saw there prices drop like a stone. $2600 for Mani-2, $700 for Arro, etc. Once they went to the big box chains the high end dealers dumped them and found something else. The bridge was burned. A&B Sound went bankrupt - Totem was sold at about 20 dealers in BC and now there are two outlets who carry them. And one of them is tiny. The other may have picked them up because they are big B&W sellers and will probably need something to replace them.

    B&W may be big enough to offset this where Totem is fairly small. B&W also has a full spread of home theater - really they're all about home theater and style products so they probably fit the big box chain better than any other big speaker company.

  6. #6
    Forum Regular winston's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    thanks for the tip (Ajani) maybe by next year sometime I'll get lucky finding a floor model, with about eight best buy within five to fifty miles of my Zip code "all south Florida welcome that news?!! I'm so looking forward to audition one of the (floor standing models)
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    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    I think this is the only move they could have made. The home audio component market has been shrinking since 1992, and right now revenues from the iPod alone are more than triple the sales of all home audio components combined.

    And this has been bourne out on the retail side as well. With the demise of Circuit City, Best Buy is now the only national electronics retailer left (aside from Radio Shack, which hardly sells home audio components). But, what's really driving B&W to Best Buy is the rapid disappearance of the regional specialty audio/video chains.

    In California, just within the past year, you've had Andersons and Ken Crane go out of business. Those were regional home theater specialists that carried B&W. Before that, you had the demise of Good Guys and Tweeter, both of which carried numerous high end brands. Tweeter in particular entered several markets by acquiring other regional chains, so their bankruptcy affected the supply chain for several regions across the country. And I haven't even mentioned the numerous independent audio/video stores that have also gone out of business.

    You could make the argument that the disappearance of regional specialty chains just opens up an opportunity for somebody else. And indeed it has. The strongest specialty player right now is Magnolia ... which just happens to be owned by Best Buy, and has been on an aggressive national expansion over the past few years.

    With regional audio/video chains disappearing right and left, and indies dropping out as well, who else is B&W going to do business with? They've always had a strong network of dealers, but when that base erodes, they damn well better have a backup plan. Best Buy right now is the 800 lb. gorilla on the retail side, so B&W has basically solidified their market presence in one move.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjpremierfour
    The B&W chairman is exactly right! With the recession killing so many Hi-End stores, it would be a good opportunity for the "mass market people" to get a true taste of Hi-End sound. As some of you already know, you can walk outside any Best Buys and find a car system that has $5 to $10k of audio equipment/ installation cost. Wouldn't you, as a Hi-Fi company want to expose that guy to Hi- End audio at an early age. I hope that more Hi-Fi's will follow B&W's example.
    You mean the people who spend more money on the car audio system than the car itself as it thumps down the street during one of it's many passings trying to pick up chicks?

  9. #9
    Suspended PeruvianSkies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    The time has come:

    B&W will be sold at Magnolia Stores (Best Buy's.... ummm... 'High End Division') in North America. If I'm not mistaken B&W is already sold in the recently launched Best Buy stores in the UK...

    I know we've had many debates in these forums in the past about whether high end brands should be sold in the big chain stores, but what do you all think about the move by B&W?

    http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-ne...-magnolia.html

    IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...

    They might start carrying the speakers, but will they actually hire people who can sell them and know what they are talking about?

    If they really want to make a go of it, they need to go all out and really carry higher end stuff in order to make it worthwhile for true audiophiles and enthusiasts to check things out.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The concern I have with such moves for the company is that once they leave the high end stores the high end stores will right them off as home theater junk. Whether they believe it or not won't be the issue - B&W will not likely be able to "go back" to the high end dealers.
    What high end dealers would they go back to? There's a massive consolidation going on right in many forms of retailing, with electronics very prominent.

    Best Buy has played the market better than anybody, and acquiring the Seattle-based Magnolia Hi-Fi chain back in 2000 was one of their best moves. It got them in business with the top rated specialty audio/video retailer in North America, and it got them in with high end companies like Krell, Martin Logan, B&K, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, and REL. They've been seeding the market for the past decade, and once competing specialty chains (all of whom carried high end brands, including B&W) either consolidated and went out of business, Magnolia was able to move in and capture the market. B&W knows this, and that's why they're now playing ball with Best Buy.

    You're right that high end retailers don't like supporting their competitors, but the lessons from JBL's botched entry into mass merchandiser channels have been learned by other brands that used to only be sold through specialty stores. Plus, right now you have a very different retail landscape than existed before. It has nothing to do with retailers writing off brands as junk when they go into mass merchandise stores, it has to do with survival by trying to find the niches that places like Best Buy don't cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    And maybe the thinking is no big deal but it could come up and bite them in the butt. Why? because big billion dollar box chains make demands and usually those demands are to lower prices. If B&W comes in there with $3,000 standmounts chances are no one is going to bite. Not enough anyway.
    I think you're making the false assumption that the volumes are going to zoom through the roof just because they're carried by Best Buy. First off, the Magnolia sections are not in every Best Buy store. Second, the highest volume speakers will still be the lowest priced ones.

    B&W is insulated from the volume pressures because they are in the Magnolia sections, and displayed alongside other offerings from Martin Logan, Vienna Acoustics, Boston Acoustics, and Definitive Technology. The Magnolia stores inside of Best Buy do not carry the highest end models, so that basically keeps B&W in good stead with its indie retailers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Best Buy and Future Shop will not put up with carrying lines of products that don't move in mass quantities - those chains are ONLY interested in moving as many boxes as fast as humanly possible. They will want the price dropped to $1200 and then $800 and B&W is going to have to sell at those prices. That could mean cutting corners and cheaping out.
    The Magnolia sections are all about high margin, which is the exact same lifeblood as an indie store. Best Buy has had the past decade to plan out and identify the right balance between volumes and margins for their Magnolia subsidiary. They know that shoppers who venture into the Magnolia sections are not mass market customers looking for iPod docks.
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  11. #11
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    As I was saying before the storm so rudely took my electric out briefly. Coincidently I visited my first Magnolia inside BB today. I have to say I was impressed, not because it was so great but because it wasn't as you all speculate. First of all an attractive young lady offered to help us who actually knew her stuff. Not sure if this is the Norm but good first impression. If the Martin Logan pricing is an example BB does not whore the prices out, ML was in line with their website and Amazon. So a manufacturer, at least some, can still control their price. They only had so much space so they used a switcher but the speakers were paired off along three of the walls with electronics on one wall, a circular seat where you can face the speakers you want to hear. What they need are some separates, speakers like Vienna Acoustics, Martin Logan and B&W need more than a receiver in some instances. They even had a ProJect turntable hooked to a Yamaha integrated and the turntable was ready to go, she even played a couple tracks from a Dave Matthews LP to show off the ML Source speakers. So although not the ideal showroom Magnolia was far from the worst I've been in.

    B&W could follow Klipsch's business plan and only give certain series of product. Rockford formerly only a boutique line successfully sold out to any big box store that would have them and remained in the boutique stores. Quite an achievement almost any store that sold car audio sold Rockford. I was told by a reliable source Rockford was able to keep boutique support by offering better price margins to the boutiques. So we will have to see what B&W in BB becomes. Maybe they will only sell them headphones and Ipod docks. This is a bad down turn the economy took and it doesn't show improvement on the street yet.

  12. #12
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    As I was saying before the storm so rudely took my electric out briefly. Coincidently I visited my first Magnolia inside BB today. I have to say I was impressed, not because it was so great but because it wasn't as you all speculate. First of all an attractive young lady offered to help us who actually knew her stuff. Not sure if this is the Norm but good first impression. If the Martin Logan pricing is an example BB does not whore the prices out, ML was in line with their website and Amazon. So a manufacturer, at least some, can still control their price. They only had so much space so they used a switcher but the speakers were paired off along three of the walls with electronics on one wall, a circular seat where you can face the speakers you want to hear. What they need are some separates, speakers like Vienna Acoustics, Martin Logan and B&W need more than a receiver in some instances. They even had a ProJect turntable hooked to a Yamaha integrated and the turntable was ready to go, she even played a couple tracks from a Dave Matthews LP to show off the ML Source speakers. So although not the ideal showroom Magnolia was far from the worst I've been in.

    B&W could follow Klipsch's business plan and only give certain series of product. Rockford formerly only a boutique line successfully sold out to any big box store that would have them and remained in the boutique stores. Quite an achievement almost any store that sold car audio sold Rockford. I was told by a reliable source Rockford was able to keep boutique support by offering better price margins to the boutiques. So we will have to see what B&W in BB becomes. Maybe they will only sell them headphones and Ipod docks. This is a bad down turn the economy took and it doesn't show improvement on the street yet.
    Hmmm... I doubt they only intend to sell that based on the press release and the fact that they already do that at the Apple Store... My guess would be they'd sell everything other than the newly redesigned and substantially more expensive 800 series... The CM and 600 series are already perfectly priced to fit into Magnolia... The 800 might be a more difficult sell (though not impossible)...

  13. #13
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani

    IMO, internet direct sales and big box stores are probably going to be the future of HiFi... And I don't think they'll kill the hobby...

    I agree....sort of. I think that we all see high end audio stores dropping like flies. Around me the "Myer-Emco" chain that has been in business for 40+ years went bankrupt. That was a shock. I think that box stores will sell for lower end stuff and internet sales for the higher-end stuff.

    But, I think that the change will be that we will not be able to go to hi-fi stores to listen to equipment and talk to the 'experts'. Instead, sites like audioreview.com will become more important to more people. Then I think that things like 'listening parties' will be more prominent. Kind of like progressive dinners. You go from how to house for light snakes and listen to peoples setups. Then you'll get a chance to hear different setups.

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  14. #14
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlystanley
    I agree....sort of. I think that we all see high end audio stores dropping like flies. Around me the "Myer-Emco" chain that has been in business for 40+ years went bankrupt. That was a shock. I think that box stores will sell for lower end stuff and internet sales for the higher-end stuff.

    But, I think that the change will be that we will not be able to go to hi-fi stores to listen to equipment and talk to the 'experts'. Instead, sites like audioreview.com will become more important to more people. Then I think that things like 'listening parties' will be more prominent. Kind of like progressive dinners. You go from how to house for light snakes and listen to peoples setups. Then you'll get a chance to hear different setups.

    Best Regards,
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    There would still be chances to audition gear; either in the Magnolia stores or better yet with the in-home-trials offered by internet direct sales... IMO, in-home-trials are much better than listening to a dealer prattle on with nonsense as a sales pitch...

    Also, I believe that having more major hifi brands (even if only their budget and mid level offerings) in the the big box stores will serve to expose more of the general public to this hobby.

    Listening parties sounds pretty cool though - I hope more of those happen...

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    I was surprised to see B&W along with lots of other nice gear being sold at Harrods of London when I was there 2 years ago but I guess Harrods would be considered a high end store. I was just amazed to see a regular department store with great gear.

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    Once you go big box, you don't go back

    I agree w/ RGA in spirit. The decision made by B&W will garner them a stigma by the high-end community. I'm sure many of the internet hi-fi hate bloggers have revisited long dormant webpages to replace the words "Bose" with the letters "B&W".

    But like Wooch stated, what Hi-Fi shops will be left to spurn them?

    Yeah, I said Bose. Bose was a mainstay in hi-fi shops up until the mid-'80s, when they went the bigbox route. Same w/ Cerwin Vega. Same w/ JBL, DCM, then Polk Audio and Boston Acoustics later, and a few others. Bose was always Bose though, they didn't suddenly cheap-out, they were always over priced anyway, like a lot of hi-fi.

    I see RGA's point. Will the pressure to price product for the general consumer cause B&W to compromise their rep and leagacy? Maybe. Polk Audio, during their first decade of existence, championed the passive radiator. Say what you will about whether or not you like PRs, the fact is, that was Polk's identity, along with the consistency of the 6.5" driver and softdome tweeter. I loved the way their speakers sounded (still own my SDA-CRSs). Sure, they did that power port thing with their later fladship designs, but as the years pass, the Polk speakers you see in bigbox stores aren't much different than any other brand, at least ones I've seen. How will B&W compete with the likes of KEF, Energy and what passes for Polk Audio speakers w/o losing their identity? Remember, Bose created a new identity with those cute little cube speakers and brochures explaining how they been in the business of surround sound for decades.

    Take the above with a grain of salt and not as some form of message board throwdown, because I could prolly make do with any of the brands mentioned in this post.
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  17. #17
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    I was surprised to see B&W along with lots of other nice gear being sold at Harrods of London when I was there 2 years ago but I guess Harrods would be considered a high end store. I was just amazed to see a regular department store with great gear.
    That is part of the reason why HiFi is not doing as badly in other parts of the world... Major HiFi brands can be found in places the average person would actually shop...

    Note: Those brands have been doing that for many years in the UK, etc and not had the total collapse of quality many persons predict will occur if they do that in the US... I believe a lot of it just comes down to the perception that real HiFi must be sold at an exclusive dealer... I think getting HiFi back in the mainstream is the best thing that can happen to the hobby.

  18. #18
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    I must be missing something here. BB has had Magnolia for like a decade already. You could ALWAYS go in there and get decent kit. So B&W sells there stuff there now too? BFD! There just another speaker on the rack over there. Magnolia is all about HT, so I can guarentee you that people looking to drop 20 large for a set of 800d's aren't going to be shopping in Magnolia.

    I agree it's a sad thing that the speciality Hi-Fi store is going the way of the dinosaur, but it's not because you can get B&W at Magnolia.
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  19. #19
    RGA
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    Sorry I missed this thread. When threads get moved I get lost for awhile. people trying to confuse poor RGA all the time.

    I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.

    Although personally I have not found a lot of stuff from B&W over the last decade that really impressed me. There are an awful lot of audio brands out there - probably far too many, and the large homogonizing chains will take in the large manufacturers - because they have to because those are the speaker companies that can meet the demand. Best-Buy is the Wal-Mart of audio.

    Kind of depressing really. Soundhounds with their tens of thousands of vinyls and an owner who spends about $4,000 a month buying CD and SACD - the people passionate about music and reproduction - versus the guy selling you a box from a horrible listening room and has little or no classical music section whatsoever. It's bloody depressing.

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    Integrity Vs Cash Money

    I don't know if the Bowers' still own the company, or what their corporate picture looks like. Either way, I think alot of these companies would take cash over fist if given the opportunity.

    Making money is more important than preserving some nostalgic ideal that a small amount of people may have. Granted I'm sure there are some companies who would not "sell out", but making money is kind of the whole point of running a business, no?

    B/W go to Magnolia....nothing changes....life goes on.

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    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Magnolia is all about HT, so I can guarentee you that people looking to drop 20 large for a set of 800d's aren't going to be shopping in Magnolia.

    I agree it's a sad thing that the speciality Hi-Fi store is going the way of the dinosaur, but it's not because you can get B&W at Magnolia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    That is part of the reason why HiFi is not doing as badly in other parts of the world... Major HiFi brands can be found in places the average person would actually shop...
    Precisely, this marketing model is common in many European countries, Fnac (France, Spain) and El Corte Ingles (Spain) have very respectable HiFi departments. At El Corte Ingles domestic audio department is generally situated next to the musical equipment, which is quite a nice touch. Furthermore, department stores tend to offer a more congenial environment for browsing than the typical HiFi speciality store.
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    That's a bit extreme

    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    I don't know if the Bowers' still own the company, or what their corporate picture looks like. Either way, I think a lot of these companies would take cash over fist if given the opportunity.
    Surely, the only reason you know B&W is because they managed to sell some product in the past. B&W are simply acknowledging market realities and adjusting accordingly. In the current market, Speciality retailer have neither capital investment nor market exposure to push high volume/low margin domestic audio products.
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    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Surely, the only reason you know B&W is because they managed to sell some product in the past. B&W are simply acknowledging market realities and adjusting accordingly. In the current market, Speciality retailer have neither capital investment nor market exposure to push high volume/low margin domestic audio products.
    So how is that extreme? You just validated my point.

    If big box stores can offer a way to make money for these companies, potentially ALOT more than in the past, why wouldn't they? The reasons for why they may decide to are unimportant. The fact is that any of the big brands have this option. Why are more not jumping at the chance to display their wares on a big box shelf?

    The real question is will a reputable brand like BW change their standards to meet big box demands. Perhaps no demands will be made of them. Big box may just want to have an esoteric name to advertise, allowing them credibility.

    Only time will tell. In the meantime, "market realities" will see to it that a pimply faced, under paid salesman (with little real experience) becomes the key to the brick and mortar segment. Good luck with that...

    I don't think all the negatives are being thought of here. Think of your typical big box experience. Would you want to leave your brand/products to that?!? After building it in some cases for decades?!?

    There's obviously alot of facts and figures behind the decision. I must also say that I have never been into a Magnolia, perhaps the salespeople are a tad more qualified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby
    I don't think all the negatives are being thought of here. Think of your typical big box experience. Would you want to leave your brand/products to that?!? After building it in some cases for decades?!?

    Definitely not. Some of the salespeople in BB have absolutely no clue what they are talking about (ie, wireless phone to base station bouncing off a satellite... really ?!?).

    I noticed Klipsch now has certain lines available at BB but some of their better stuff is only available at the Magnolia's. Much better to have a dedicated room to hear different speakers that at least gives approximate setup of the living/entertainment room. This is how I A/B tested a set of 5.1 speakers before purchasing, but that was at a dedicated A/V store and was not a large chain. They have only 3 stores in the state.

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