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  1. #26
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    My experience with Magnolia was that every salesperson was trained to a higher level than the BB floorwalkers. All the gear displayed was decent too.

    W'ere now going to get upset now that Joe Sixpack can actually wander into a BB and get a taste of decent sound? 95% of the people that go into BB would never step foot in a dedicated Hi-Fi store anyway, so I don't see the terrible outcome of actually having decent gear on sale there.
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  2. #27
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    My experience with Magnolia was that every salesperson was trained to a higher level than the BB floorwalkers. All the gear displayed was decent too.

    W'ere now going to get upset now that Joe Sixpack can actually wander into a BB and get a taste of decent sound? 95% of the people that go into BB would never step foot in a dedicated Hi-Fi store anyway, so I don't see the terrible outcome of actually having decent gear on sale there.
    Exactly! What's wrong with exposing the mass market to good sound???

    And as you pointed out earlier: other brands have been in Magnolia (under BB ownership for around a decade), such as Martin Logan... Martin Logan's quality and rep has not turned to crap as a result of being in Magnolia... So the idea that B&W is suddenly going to turn into rubbish just doesn't make sense...

  3. #28
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Being made in China is going to do more damage to B&W's rep than being sold in a big box store, although I do look forward to having them in the neighborhood again.
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  4. #29
    RGA
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    The positive from this will be a price drop I suspect. When I was in Fukuoka Japan B&W was sold at the big box outlets beside the camera departments and such. The N805 sold for the equivalent of $1100 after conversion, while here it sells at $3000. If this kind of price drop occurs in the west and B&W retains the quality then an 805 is far more recommendable.

    It's quite interesting sometimes to see the different market approaches to some gear. Canon has a camera called the Rebel and an identical model in Korea called the KISS - exactly the same camera different logo and the Kiss sells for less than half the price. It was taken apart and it's the same camera - even the people selling both say it's the same. Still people liked to pay double for the Rebel. Both made in the same place and sold to different countries. The Rebel was shipped from Asia to America and then shipped from America back to Korea. The Kiss was shipped from Japan direct to Korea.

    Being made in China is a reality of the future. They have the economy and the population. The wealth is in China and they are buying up American and western firms at high rates. I won't be surprised when they buy Wal-mart, the American car manufacturers, all the law firms - the best way to take over is to control the lawyers. No need to fire a shot to takeover.

  5. #30
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    I don't know what the boutique stores are doing in your areas but here they are not stocking any product, only display and if there is a sale the store orders the product in. So imagine how many units just to put on display in Magnolia. This has to be a boost to B&W's bottomline. You can't blame a company for that.

    Geoff, if you see one of my earlier posts, my experience in Magnolia was the same as yours. I was surprised and pleased.

    Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.

  6. #31
    Forum Regular YBArcam's Avatar
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    To read this thread one would think that soon there will be no specialty audio stores left in the entire world. Lots of anecdotal evidence that they are disappearing, and I'm sure it's all true. But in my area there is lots of choice, assuming you are willing to get in the car and drive at least one or two hours. I'm sure it's always been this way though...since when were audio stores like convenience stores with a location on every corner? There are probably something like 10-15 stores within a two hour drive of my place, and none of them has closed since I started paying attention to hi fi (five or so years ago).

    I'm actually quite surprised about that, as no doubt this is a tough gig. But as long as there are audiophiles, there will be specialty audio retailers (and that's exactly what Magnolia is btw, as far as I can tell). Online? Frankly, how good are companies like Axiom and Aperion and Emotiva doing? I don't think any of us really knows. To buy gear from them, lug it home from the post office, open it, try it, and then not like it and have to pack it up and ship it back at my expense. Nah, I'm not very interested. I'd much rather deal with a dealer who might let me take the gear home for a few days, and will offer support afterwards if I need it (and rather than me having to ship it back I can just drive to the store and drop it off).

    To put a bit of a twist on things, there are specialty brick and mortar audio shoppes that sell gear online. Spearit Sound and Saturday Audio for example, and many dealers on CAM and Audiogon. This should help these stores compete.

    I've never been to Magnolia, but if they are separated from the rest of the store, and have qualified staff with proper set up then I wouldn't be against going there if I was B&W or any other somewhat high end brand. It's an interesting argument that exposing hi fi to the masses is worthwhile, and is already done elsewhere which only helps the entire industry. But part of me can't help but think these Best Buy shoppers who will buy anything are idiots. I want quality for my dollar and I was able to find hi fi, we all were able to. These other people have no excuse. Whatever I'm going to buy I research it, if others do not then they have only themselves to blame when they end up with garbage. We are all responsible for our choices, so why should some folks be spoon fed? But I guess that's the reality. Maybe it makes sense for the audio companies to band together and run some mainstream ads about the benefits of high end audio, and ask the public to try some specialty stores in their area before buying lackluster product at a big box store.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.
    I would say don't bother. Unless you want to see a bunch of crappy speakers lined up against a wall, next to a bunch of home theater receivers. This is all any Best Buy has in my area. Future Shop might be a little better, in that you might come across a decent Energy Reference model, but I'm not sure that's worth writing home about.
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  7. #32
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I don't know what the boutique stores are doing in your areas but here they are not stocking any product, only display and if there is a sale the store orders the product in. So imagine how many units just to put on display in Magnolia. This has to be a boost to B&W's bottomline. You can't blame a company for that.

    Geoff, if you see one of my earlier posts, my experience in Magnolia was the same as yours. I was surprised and pleased.

    Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.
    Did we go to the same store?! Actually I think BB makes a point of having Magnolia as their "premium only" kit display, and my guess is that you've got to be well trained to work the room.

    We've got some of the most exclusive independents in my area and I can tell you that for the most part, unless they are absolutly SURE your going to drop gelt on the spot your not even going to get past the intro room. I remember several years ago when I was in the market for speakers that getting to hear a set of Quad 988's was like getting an audiance with the Dali Lama. I'm still waiting to hear the big Soundlabs! Perhaps things are different now that the economy is belly up?
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  8. #33
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    The independents here are pretty good about letting you check out the gear. Maybe they figure if you don't buy today you might remember and be back another day. Also, a good way to educate. That's what hooked me.

    The girl in Magnolia along with being knowledgeable and helpful she was also trained to close the deal, she asked a couple times which receiver did we like, which speakers do we want to take home. I don't know if this is a Magnolia criteria the girl was also very attractive, it took all my will power to break the spell, i almost bought something and I wasn't even shopping for hi fi gear.

  9. #34
    Forum Regular YBArcam's Avatar
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    I've come across some independents who were pretty bad, but probably 80% of them are quite good. Come to think of it, I can only really say one store had an attitude. Most stores here are great with letting you do in-home trials, or just listen in one of their rooms, and do not put any pressure on you to buy (some stores put on a bit of pressure). I always feel a little guilty for not buying after I've taken up an hour or two of their time, and I almost always eventually end up buying something from the store (even if it's only just a set of cables), but it's likely these stores realize that this is part of the job.

    Even if a customer takes up a few hours of a salesman's time and doesn't buy anything, they will probably remember the positive experience and could buy in the future, or even recommend the store to a few friends/family.

    If one thing is a little disappointing with independents it's the lack of knowledge about how audio gear works. You often get the same buzzwords that you hear elsewhere, and if you ask a question about how something works you'll probably get a very basic answer. I wish they'd pass along a bit more knowledge, but I've come to realize that this hobby is both quite complex and very subjective, so I prefer to just listen for myself and if I'm allowed that then I'm pretty satisfied.
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  10. #35
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by YBArcam
    Online? Frankly, how good are companies like Axiom and Aperion and Emotiva doing? I don't think any of us really knows. To buy gear from them, lug it home from the post office, open it, try it, and then not like it and have to pack it up and ship it back at my expense. Nah, I'm not very interested. I'd much rather deal with a dealer who might let me take the gear home for a few days, and will offer support afterwards if I need it (and rather than me having to ship it back I can just drive to the store and drop it off).

    To put a bit of a twist on things, there are specialty brick and mortar audio shoppes that sell gear online. Spearit Sound and Saturday Audio for example, and many dealers on CAM and Audiogon. This should help these stores compete.
    Emotiva is doing extremely well, they run out of stock frequently... No idea about Axiom or Aperion though... Also, keep in mind that online also includes stores that stock multiple brands: AudioAdvisor, Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Needle Doctor, Acoustic Sounds, etc...

    The experience had at dealers varies quite dramatically: I've only been to one dealer who I though was excellent (no pressure to buy, knowledgeable and would let me audition whatever I wanted), the others were all either pressuring, understocked (so practically nothing to audition) or downright snotty... Note: that excellent dealer closed down...

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Emotiva is doing extremely well, they run out of stock frequently... No idea about Axiom or Aperion though... Also, keep in mind that online also includes stores that stock multiple brands: AudioAdvisor, Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Needle Doctor, Acoustic Sounds, etc...

    The experience had at dealers varies quite dramatically: I've only been to one dealer who I though was excellent (no pressure to buy, knowledgeable and would let me audition whatever I wanted), the others were all either pressuring, understocked (so practically nothing to audition) or downright snotty... Note: that excellent dealer closed down...
    The moral of the story, being snotty is a best business practice.

  12. #37
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Actually I'm being a little unfair. there's only one that gave me a hard time, and I should have known better going there "unannounced" so to speak. They are a strictly by appointment, and I just showed up. Not what I usually do, but I happened to be in the area and I really did want to hear the Quads.
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  13. #38
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

    Being an independent is no guarantee of knowledge either. There is a store here in town that carries Mac, Monitor Audio and Paradigm, the sales staff were ignorant. We left scratching our head and wondering why Mac would leave their product there.

    I know exactly the place of which you speak though I can't recall the name...over on the strip across from the car lot with the Bentleys. Last time I was down your way Grendel and I stopped in there and left shaking heads and "wtf"-ing...we actually unwrapped the Ken Kessler "McIntosh...For the Love of the Music" coffee table dealio because the salesperson insisted that my 7205 was a two-channel 60 watt amp...Идиот
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    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  14. #39
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    I am quite certain B&W knows what they're doing more than me. They are a massive company and if stores close you have to find alternatives. I don't really understand the Magnolia thing since they are not in the Best-Buy stores in Canada - or at least not the ones near me. I don't believe we have "Magnolia" in Canada. We have Future Shop and that is owned by Best Buy. Neither of them really carry good quality audio - though I should go in and check to see.
    I think you need to understand that audio/video retailing in the U.S. is primarily a three-tiered market. At one level, you have the mass market stores (this would include BB, Costco, Target, Walmart, etc.) that primarily sells high volume, low priced gear. At the top level, you have the high end audio/video stores, most of which are independent and traditionally operate small store fronts. In the middle, you have the regional specialty audio/video retailers, which carry mass market brands as well as a selection of high end gear. In most markets, it's the regional specialty chains that have gotten hammered the hardest, with many of them going out of business over the past decade.

    If you don't understand Magnolia, then you don't understand B&W's move. Basically, Magnolia started as a regional specialty audio/video chain in the Northwest. They consistently ranked at or near the top among electronics chains for customer service. In 2000, Best Buy acquired the company and operated them as an independent subsidiary. Having BB's deep pockets allowed Magnolia to expand into the California market, where they competed primarily with Good Guys (which went out of business a few years later).

    About five years ago, Best Buy began experimenting with adding Magnolia mini stores inside their big box Best Buy stores, and they've now expanded it nationally. These mini stores have dedicated demo rooms, and separately trained sales reps. Unlike their standalone stores, which also carry high end audio components, the Magnolia mini stores inside BB focus on home theater.

    These Magnolia stores already carry Martin Logan and Vienna Acoustics speakers, so adding B&W's not really much of a sea change.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Although personally I have not found a lot of stuff from B&W over the last decade that really impressed me. There are an awful lot of audio brands out there - probably far too many, and the large homogonizing chains will take in the large manufacturers - because they have to because those are the speaker companies that can meet the demand. Best-Buy is the Wal-Mart of audio.
    But, as I mentioned already, these Magnolia stores are not inside every Best Buy, and as with any specialty audio/video store, the Magnolia subsidiary is more about margin than volume. That's why Magnolia has home installation/contracting services, and ISF video calibration. They basically function more like a specialty audio/video store, but (aside from their 15 or so standalone stores in California, Oregon, and Washington) happened to be located inside of Best Buy. This is no different than when B&W was stocked by now defunct regional chains like Tweeter and Ken Crane.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Kind of depressing really. Soundhounds with their tens of thousands of vinyls and an owner who spends about $4,000 a month buying CD and SACD - the people passionate about music and reproduction - versus the guy selling you a box from a horrible listening room and has little or no classical music section whatsoever. It's bloody depressing.
    Why is it depressing? The alternative is B&W and other higher end brands getting pushed out of one geographic territory after another because of an ever shrinking retail base. Magnolia at least provides an option for the many markets that don't have any high end stores left, and for those markets whose regional specialty chains have gone out of business.

    Even with the high end stores, I'm seeing a lot of consolidation. I think that in the future, you will see the emergence of high end superstores, and that will ensure the availability of high end components, but with fewer stores.
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  15. #40
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    As far as I'm concerned, it won't affect the brand..... it's not like someone is going to go in there, buy a pair of 802d's, take zero care in setting up his/her room, and be displeased with them.....

    I think this will be a good way for un-educated people to not be "taken" either..... if someone walks into a BB that has a Magnolia, and is looking at a $2000 Bose setup... perhaps the kid working there will direct them towards a set of M-1's, and a couple years later, they will realize how lucky they were that they didn't buy what they set-out to buy in the first place......

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny p
    I think this will be a good way for un-educated people to not be "taken" either..... if someone walks into a BB that has a Magnolia, and is looking at a $2000 Bose setup... perhaps the kid working there will direct them towards a set of M-1's, and a couple years later, they will realize how lucky they were that they didn't buy what they set-out to buy in the first place......
    Exactly
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  17. #42
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theaudiohobby
    Exactly
    I doubt if anything will get much past the 600 series, bottom feeders that BB is.
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  18. #43
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    My personal thoughts...

    I really think it would be hard for any salesperson to really make a "go" of it at a Best Buy store, even if they did get really high end equipment, mostly because for quite some time now (especially the stores that never really cared much in the way of speakers to begin with) have trained their customers that they essentially don't really have much in the way of speakers or that you can get a HTiB for a few hundred dollars and that's all you really need....or send them to Bose.

    So let's say they do start carrying some really nice B&W's.... most people would look at the sticker and laugh thinking it was a joke....since majority of the people who shop there probably don't want to drop that type of cash on speakers, whereas people like us at this site, understand the hobby and know where we need to go to get the products we like, specialty shops.

    Sure...there may be a few converts over time in a BB store, but for the most part even a really knowledgeable salesman would have a hard time getting the general public to do more than just sit there, listen, love it, and then never commit.

    It would be like selling True Religion Jeans at a Wal-Mart....

  19. #44
    Audio Hobbyist Since 1969 Glen B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Being made in China is a reality of the future.
    It seems more and more like the reality of the present. I will be deejaying a backyard party and decided to buy a pro sub to use. When it arrived, I was surprised to find this traditionally made in America brand had "made in China" stamped on the carton. I was like, WTF? Is there anything that is not made in China anymore ?

  20. #45
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen B
    It seems more and more like the reality of the present. I will be deejaying a backyard party and decided to buy a pro sub to use. When it arrived, I was surprised to find this traditionally made in America brand had "made in China" stamped on the carton. I was like, WTF? Is there anything that is not made in China anymore ?
    NOPE.
    But the really irritating thing is the "engineered in (fill in the blank) built in CHINA.
    I took a 2500$ set of klipse back (well, sold them) after they didn't stand up.
    I don't know about how far the CHINA MADNESS has permeated into the B&W
    line, only know that the base line is China made.
    SPEAKERS ARE special, considered more of a handmade item, with a unique
    sound.
    HOW DO YOU TRANSPLANT THAT TO CHINA???
    You don't, basically.
    Good thing I got my B&W speakers before western civilization shut down, and good thing
    that they last decades, as mine are eight-nine years old.
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  21. #46
    Ajani
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    Here's an update on the situation from the Stereophile website:

    Reflecting dramatic changes in the high-end industry, British loudspeaker manufacturer Bowers & Wilkins has developed for its products a new US retail outlet. Beginning in October, audio shoppers will be able to audition and buy the company's loudspeakers in Best Buy's chain of Magnolia stores.

    B&W's entire line, from in-wall speakers through the flagship 800 series, will be available in Magnolia's six remaining standalone Audio Video stores, as well as in its ever-increasing number of Magnolia Design Centers. The balance of the Magnolia chain, which occupies some 350 locations within Best Buy stores, will have access to B&W's 600 and CM series, complete with center-channel speakers and subwoofers, as well as lifestyle products such as the Zeppelin iPod and MM-1 computer speaker systems. The top-of-the-line Nautilus remains available for audition in the few dealerships equipped to adequately present it.

    B&W chairman and owner Joe Atkins explained to Stereophile the reasons for the company's decision: "We have experienced a precipitous decline in dealerships. The entire specialty audio industry has been hit, not only by the loss of stores, but also by the loss of rooms dedicated to showing premium audio. First the increased emphasis on video decreased space [for audio], then the switch to demming nonpure audio, including distributed audio such as control and noiseless systems, further consumed space."

    Atkins also described a second and concomitant trend of the past three years: the significant number of failures of retailers. "Coupled with a dramatic increase in the number of traditional retailers who have reduced or eliminated store count and/or size of retail presence, scaled back their businesses, or transformed into custom integrators, we have experienced a dramatic and significant decline in presentation of Bowers & Wilkins in bricks-and-mortar stores," he said. "The problem of dealer decline is particular to the US, and is much less an issue overseas."

    Atkins emphasized that underpinning the company's decision was Magnolia's ability to demonstrate the entire B&W line. "We wish to recover, if not enhance, the ability to have the broad extension of our products seen and heard nationally. Bowers & Wilkins feels very compelled to make sure that, in every market and price range, we have enough bricks-and-mortar presence for people to be able to find us. We are also confident that the increased brand exposure will benefit our existing dealer partners, and enhance their ability to continue to drive profitable and sustainable retail revenue."

    B&W is hardly alone in its decision. Magnolia also carries Arcam, Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, Peachtree Audio, Pioneer Elite, and Primare electronics, as well as Definitive Technology, Genelec, MartinLogan, Monitor Audio, Niles, REL, Sonus Faber, SpeakerCraft, and Vienna Acoustics loudspeakers. They even have Pro-Ject turntables.

    "This is quite a shift for us," Atkins said, "but it is driven by what has gone on outside our control—especially in the last 24 months, with the decline. Our products do not lend themselves to be sold online without the consumer hearing them."
    http://www.stereophile.com/news/bw_h...magnoliaville/

    Most interesting is the brands Magnolia now carries (highlighted in bold above)...

  22. #47
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Here's an update on the situation from the Stereophile website:



    http://www.stereophile.com/news/bw_h...magnoliaville/

    Most interesting is the brands Magnolia now carries (highlighted in bold above)...
    So, the 600 and the CM, AND you can order a Nautilus.
    About what I figured, like I could afford a NAUTILUS anyway.
    We can't all have a demo pair "fall off a truck" at work like some around here.
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  23. #48
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    So, the 600 and the CM, AND you can order a Nautilus.
    About what I figured, like I could afford a NAUTILUS anyway.
    We can't all have a demo pair "fall off a truck" at work like some around here.
    Yep... The 600 and CM are already perfectly priced for Magnolia... and the 800 being very expensive makes them only fit for special order/Magnolia stand alone stores and other high end stores...

    The exposure of the 600, CM, headphones, iPod docks, computer speakers etc to the masses, who regularly pass through Best Buy, should certainly help to improve B&Ws sales and brand awareness in North America...

  24. #49
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    ... and the 800 being very expensive makes them only fit for special order/Magnolia stand alone stores and other high end stores...
    Actually not...I had a visit with my hi-fi guru yesterday and they're dropping B&W...used some very unfortunate terminology as well...the gist of the convo was that they'll send anything, anywhere...and BB's financing capabilities give them a headstart over a lot of smaller brick and mortars...
    Last edited by bobsticks; 08-02-2010 at 06:16 PM.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  25. #50
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    Things change but so far the big B&W dealer here is sticking with them. They carry Mac and Classe, Best Buy isn't going to be able to sell many Nautilus driving them with receivers. Although they give it a hell of a try on the Vienna Acoustics. I didn't care for the sound of the Vienna at all, I don't think it had to do with the electronics either, same electronics made the Martin Logan sing pretty good. I'd like to take a look at the 803's again, I didn't realize they revamped that model in recent years. It used to be a flat spot in the line not offering much of an upgrade over the 804's for the money, now I see they've added some drivers and the 803 is supposed to be a pretty good competitor in it's price.

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