Anyone heard the new Pioneer Elite Class D A/V Receivers

[captjamo]

Wondering around the net I stopped in at Pioneer to see if they had anything new and interesting introduced and was stunned to see 3 new class D powered A/V receivers introduced. They describe them as a whole new experience. I think I want class D for two reasons. The warmth of the sound and the cool running. When I have my class AB cranked for a while (concert and a movie) my HT room gets pretty warm. These receivers have better interface with ipods and a new GUI and remote too.

[pixelthis]

If anybody did ccome out with a class "d" receiver first it would be
bottom feeder Pioneer.
At least with a AB you can pretend to have a semi-audiophile product at least, although I GUESS IT HAD TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER

[captjamo]

It is my understanding that good class D which is here to stay thanks to advances in gain control or something like that rivals class A amplification at around half the energy consumption of AB. I don't have to buy pioneer but my next AV receiver will be class D if I like the sound as much as the reviews indicate I will. Yam, Den, and Onk are next. They will be touted as greener. Green sells right now. Its not hard to predict this.

[pixelthis]

It is my understanding that good class D which is here to stay thanks to advances in gain control or something like that rivals class A amplification at around half the energy consumption of AB. I don't have to buy pioneer but my next AV receiver will be class D if I like the sound as much as the reviews indicate I will. Yam, Den, and Onk are next. They will be touted as greener. Green sells right now. Its not hard to predict this.

IT is not hard to predict that some idiot will set off an A-bomb either,
but it is not something to look foward to.
AND YES "GREEN" is selling now, even tho the entire movement is a lie, but guess what, I dont buy gear based on how much "energy"
it uses, I DONT CARE IF IT BURNS AS MUCH AS THE EMPIRE
STATE building as long as it sounds good.
Or maybe I am just missing a decent stereo amp that I can understand,
basically, give me a discrete solid state amp any day of the week.
PLEASE

[Feanor]

If anybody did ccome out with a class "d" receiver first it would be
bottom feeder Pioneer.
At least with a AB you can pretend to have a semi-audiophile product at least, although I GUESS IT HAD TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER

Pix, are you implying that this Pioneer Elite would be the first Class D receiver? If so, you'd be utterly wrong; (not unprecedented). I've had my Panasonic SA-XR25 Class D for about 5 years and it wasn't the first on the market.

[captjamo]

He knows Sony had one, and others. I want my Kate and Edith too. If PS Audio came out with a class D AV receiver for half the unbelievable price they charge for class D, I would be interested in it over the Pio. I agree with you pix, sound first(Kate), cost second. However, lets talk about cost for just a sec. My system gets run a good bit per week. I've looked at kilowatt hours and I could potentially save 3 bucks a week or 156.00 a year on on power( cost of system running and having to crank down the central air during long HT sessions) But, class D runs cool(Edith) and I want her/that too as well as good dynamic sound.

[pixelthis]

Pix, are you implying that this Pioneer Elite would be the first Class D receiver? If so, you'd be utterly wrong; (not unprecedented). I've had my Panasonic SA-XR25 Class D for about 5 years and it wasn't the first on the market.

Now you're talking, and that is a Panasonic what?
A HOME THEATER IN THE BOX?
Sorry but Panny, while making world class TV and DVD products,
are nothing in the audio world, mentioning them is not going to help you much.
Their stuff does last however, their TECHNICS line, while not quite
up to snuff in the sound dept, was as hard to kill as a cockroach, I have two TECHNICS turntables over twenty years old.
And I never said that Pioneer was the first with Class D did I?
If I did I misspoke.
MAYBE they will screw em up so bad that class D will be relegated
back to its rightfull place in the audio world, sub amps and clock
radios and HTIB's, AND the occasional BOSE P.O.S

[captjamo]

They still sell the Panny. A solid choice if your room isn't too big and your budget is very tight. I think it does come in a HTiB as well as seperate. This product reviewed very well in S & V. I'm curious what the new class D Rotel AV receiver sounds like that was introduced this week. RX-1560 I think. How do you do those attached images and find them? Funny. Below is the link for the Panny. Might be quite good for desktop HT.


http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-X...0414258&sr=8-1

[JohnMichael]

There are so many good class D products out today. My Onkyo A-9555 is great for the price. Now Yamaha and Pioneer are joining in on the fun. PS Audio is another company that has received high praise for the class D amps. B&O has developed their ICE module that have received praise. Channel Islands, Rotel, Nu-Force, Flying Mole, and Trichord Research have been producing power amps in the class of D. Class D is well worth consideration and remeber as the man from Linn says if you have not heard what Class D can do you have no opinion.

[captjamo]

I thought Yamaha said they would not bring a class D to market for cost reasons. If they have a new class D AV receiver then I want to hear it too.

[pixelthis]

They still sell the Panny. A solid choice if your room isn't too big and your budget is very tight. I think it does come in a HTiB as well as seperate. This product reviewed very well in S & V. I'm curious what the new class D Rotel AV receiver sounds like that was introduced this week. RX-1560 I think. How do you do those attached images and find them? Funny. Below is the link for the Panny. Might be quite good for desktop HT.


http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-X...0414258&sr=8-1

Sorry, but that Panny looks like an old VCR.
Well reviewed in S and V? JUST DIGGING YOURSELF IN DEEPER.
Why anybody would pay 249 for this thang when a halfway decent receiver can be had for the same price is beyond me.
Beauty is only skin deep but ugly is to the bone.
PANNY, 1985 is calling.
HARD TO ENJOY MEDIA when I am throwing up in my mouth.
Sorry.

[captjamo]

Penguins throw up in their mouths and those baby penguins really seem to be ENJOYING it. You truly are a funny dude Pix. But, when you do break down, and you will, (once class D dominates the market) and audition a good class D AV receiver, I will want to hear your impressions. OK, so not the Panny.

[pixelthis]

Penguins throw up in their mouths and those baby penguins really seem to be ENJOYING it. You truly are a funny dude Pix. But, when you do break down, and you will, (once class D dominates the market) and audition a good class D AV receiver, I will want to hear your impressions. OK, so not the Panny.

I have heard class d probably.
But if I have to I will get a bunch of FETS and "can" caps and breadboard my own friggin amp.
A few companies still sell kits, for that matter.
Speakin of penguins...

[Mr Peabody]

The corporation that owns Panasonic and Technics made a decision some years back to quit using the name Technics and just put everything under Panasonic, so when you blast Panasonic now, you essentually blast Technics as well.

I heard the flagship Elite class D was like $6k, it had better sound good. You can buy the Marantz pre and power 8003 combo for less and it's spectacular. Of course, that's back to A/B.

You can't stereotype amps by their technology any more. My Linn amp is 125x5 and weighs all of 11 lbs. I have it tucked in a lower cabinet and never have to touch it or see it. It has auto sensing turn on and runs cool. I've never run out of power and it sounds good. T+A uses some type of digital switching in their amps and they are one of the best sounding amps I've heard. Even ARC has a digital amp, it's still fairly heavy and in my opinion don't sound that great but I don't think it has anything to do with the digital aspect. Hasn't Theta and Merridian been using digital amp technology as well?

I've heard nothing but good from Rotel's original multichannel digital power amp and I suspect that success has encouraged them to embrace these further products. They may have been waiting for the BR/HD-DVD war dust to settle but their new products look like they are ready to storm the market and if they perform, they will be a force to watch.

[captjamo]

I fully concur Mr P. I would guess the new SC-09TX 7,000.00 retail a 70lb beast is marketed to compete with Den and Yam flagships. The SC-05,07 130w and 140w respectively are ICE class D 43lb heavy weights. The fore mentioned SC-05 is THX select 2, SC-07 is THX Ultra 2, if I have that right. The SC-05 is claiming .05% THD @ 8ohms all channels driven.
I want to hear one I don't know about you guys.

[Mr Peabody]

I too would like to hear it. One of our local high end shops picked up Elite to get their hands on the TV line. They had to pick up some of the receivers but they didn't seem too hot on bringing one of the big boys in.

[Woochifer]

Sony converted their ES lineup to Class D amplification about three years ago, so this is nothing new. The first models had big time reliability problems, and the sound quality reviews were mediocre (not that Sony's receivers have ever been considered class leaders).

And my impressions with digital amps over the years have been less than stellar. Of course, most of those listenings were with receivers that also replaced discrete circuits with ICs for every other function as well, or HTIB systems which have been using Class D amps for years.

Still though, you can't generalize about a design, given that there are very well regarded high end Class D amps on the market. For example, Bel Canto's amps have been cited for their "tube like" smoothness, yet they retain the cool running and high power output that Class D amps are known for.

I would definitely be interested in hearing what the Elite receivers can deliver. Pioneer has been producing some very impressive receivers for at least the past 3 years. Their entry level receivers have been cited here and on other boards as class-leading gear. I was also very surprised when I did an A-B comparison a couple years ago at how noticeably more refined the Pios sounded compared to equally priced Denons.

Pioneer had problems with their receivers for years, but the more recent verdict has put them near the top of the pack. Going with Class D amps is a wholesale design change from what they've been doing successfully for the last few years. Would be a shame if this decision to go Class D also takes down the sound quality and/or reliability several notches.

[Woochifer]

I fully concur Mr P. I would guess the new SC-09TX 7,000.00 retail a 70lb beast is marketed to compete with Den and Yam flagships. The SC-05,07 130w and 140w respectively are ICE class D 43lb heavy weights. The fore mentioned SC-05 is THX select 2, SC-07 is THX Ultra 2, if I have that right. The SC-05 is claiming .05% THD @ 8ohms all channels driven.
I want to hear one I don't know about you guys.

I suspect that part of the reason for going Class D is to win the spec wars. Sony's Class D ES receivers do very well on benchmark tests with minimal difference between the two-channel output and the all-channels driven output. (Typically, a receiver will see a substantial dropoff in power output on the all-channels driven test.) But, I've read several posts on the AVSForum about how mediocre the sound quality is.

This is definitely a risk for Pioneer, given how they've improved the quality of their Elite receivers over the last few years and seemed to be on a roll. Perhaps the sales didn't pick up despite the improvements.

I read an article last year showing a teardown of Pioneer's top-of-the-line receiver (which would be the same thing as the entry level model in the Elite series). The author noted that Pioneer was using parts specs that were noticeably above what receivers in that $500-$600 price range normally use. He speculated that Pioneer was basically selling those receivers at a razor thin margin (or even taking a loss on each unit) in order to establish themselves as the price/performance value leader. To some degree it worked, because those Pioneer models were among the best reviewed and frequently discussed receivers.

With the move to Class D, we'll see if Pioneer has continued to go the premium route, or if this is a cheap way of boosting the power output ratings to get a leg up on Denon, Yamaha, et al.

[Mr Peabody]

I sure didn't know Sony went digital with their ES receivers. It didn't create much of a buzz. I must have also missed the reviews on the Pioneer receivers. It seems as if when these things happen they have to create a buzz to get the word out. For instance, Panasonic's digital receivers were beginning a tidal wave then they discontinued them. Maybe the wave was to late to show returns before the plug was pulled. Of course, we know why the buzz was out on the Marantz preamp processor, every one was hungry for something like that to hit. Luckily for Marantz their product lived up to expectations.

Pioneer was synonomous with cheap receivers, Wal-Mart and Best Buy, for so long they'd have to start an earthquake to get peoples attention again and try to gain some respect. They did attempt to separate Elite from that though and go a higher road. Their TV's certainly are the shtuff.

[nightflier]

Pioneer was synonomous with cheap receivers, Wal-Mart and Best Buy, for so long they'd have to start an earthquake to get peoples attention again and try to gain some respect. They did attempt to separate Elite from that though and go a higher road. Their TV's certainly are the shtuff.

Pioneer is one of those few companies that will allow one to configure a whole system (including TV) with the same brand. If they succeed, they'll be able to challenge Sony there.

For me, I would like to see more options in pre/pros. It seems like every company can make a receiver at the $600-800 price point who's features sometimes even exceed the $1500-2500 pre/pros. I'm sure performance is still a factor, but overall, the choices for pre/pros at a competitive price point are few, and perhaps even unnecessarily so. Aside from some fancy auto-calibration scheme requiring licensing, why are the pre/pros so darned expensive? Since they don't have any amplification, shouldn't they actually be cheaper? If you also consider how quickly these suckers loose their value on the used market, it really is a mystery to me why they have the gall to charge so much.

I would say to Pioneer, if they want to break into the mid-tier a/v market, or even the top market, like their TVs have, then forget about receivers and manufacture separates. A friend of mine just ordered the new BR player (not the Elite model, BTW), and at least on paper, it looks to be quite feature-rich. If they were to match that with equally feature-laden separates, then they'd really have something. They can always put the class-D technology in separate 5 & 7 channel amps.

Speaking of class-D's sound, the quality definitely goes up with price. I have several PS Audio class-D amps, a Spectron amp, and an Evo right now. And I can tell you that the Spectron and to a lesser extent the Evo, sound better than most amps I've put them up against. PS Audio has to work a little harder in that regard, but they're not bad either, especially the GCC series. That said, my current fav is not Class-D at all, but a little monoblock from Monarchy that runs very hot, doesn't fit on a standard rack, is a pain to lift, and confusing to set up. Nonetheless, I put up with all that because of how good it sounds. Go figure.