YPAO question.

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  • 07-22-2004, 03:31 AM
    ryjam282
    YPAO question.
    I had a Yamaha RX-V650 hooked up in my house for a few weeks and used the YPAO to get the optimal sound levels. Now, my surround L speaker is a little further away then all the rest, so here is my question. With the 650 it set the level of that speaker to about +6.5 or so cause it was about 15 feet away from the listening zone and now I have an HTR-5790 and I did the YPAO and it only set that speaker's level to +1.5. Can anyone explain why there is a difference like that? Thanks in advance, I appreciate it.

    Ryan
  • 07-22-2004, 04:44 AM
    Bryan
    The YPAO on the 5790 is more of a true paramatric EQ whereas the YPAO on the 650 isn't. Another thing is the 5790 is your basic RX-V1400 and is of a higher quality than the 650.
  • 07-22-2004, 06:57 AM
    kexodusc
    Higher quality? I doubt it...I have the 1400, my neighbour has the 5760 (same as the 650) and quality wise there's nothing spectacular about the 1400 that makes it stand out. Open these units up and take a look inside and you'll find an aweful lot of the same components used. An aweful lot. The 1400 is bigger, offers more stuff, but it isn't any better in terms of quality. I highly doubt the 1400 will experience a significantly lower defective rate than the 650 would. The front chassis looks a bit better on the 1400, and my remote is a bit fancier, but it's certainly not higher quality.

    The parametric eq on the 1400 or 5790 shouldn't have any impact on the level setting YPAO does. In fact, the chip that does this is probably the exact same in both units. The goofy little mic is the same. The 5 dB difference you are experiencing could be a relative thing. Are there any differences in any of the other channels? How many times have you run the set-up? Any variances? I can run set-up back-to-back and I'll get slightly different values each time. The mic seems to be very sensitive to tilt, the surface that it's supported by, and position. There could have been something abnormal during the setup of the 650 or the 1400 that gave this setting. And really, in terms of perceived loudness, 5 dB isn't really all that much.
  • 07-22-2004, 06:27 PM
    ryjam282
    Thanks for the input guys. I did run it again and it was slightly different but when I ran it on the 650 the mic was sitting on my knee and the other time with the 5790 it was sitting on top of a backpack on a chair and in a slightly different spot. That could very well be why. Thanks again, I appreciate it.

    Ryan
  • 07-24-2004, 12:37 PM
    saul
    Happy?
    Overall, are you happy with the receiver? I am looking into the yamaha 5790 myself. Currently I have an Onkyo, but was wanting your opinion on the Yamahas. Thanks!
  • 07-24-2004, 07:10 PM
    ryjam282
    Saul, I am THRILLED with this receiver and Yamaha in general. They really are top notch. I would buy another one in a second...Go with it. I have a brand new RX-V650 for sale with the factory warranty as well. Let me know if you are interested : )
  • 07-26-2004, 11:37 AM
    kpzbee
    Quote:

    The parametric eq on the 1400 or 5790 shouldn't have any impact on the level setting YPAO does. In fact, the chip that does this is probably the exact same in both units. The goofy little mic is the same. The 5 dB difference you are experiencing could be a relative thing. Are there any differences in any of the other channels? How many times have you run the set-up? Any variances? I can run set-up back-to-back and I'll get slightly different values each time. The mic seems to be very sensitive to tilt, the surface that it's supported by, and position. There could have been something abnormal during the setup of the 650 or the 1400 that gave this setting. And really, in terms of perceived loudness, 5 dB isn't really all that much.
    He's right. I did some experimenting with my 750 when I set it up. That mic is REAL sensitive to even what it's sitting on. I got major changes in the settings by changing what the mic set on (hard or soft). You might want to play with yours a bit to get it dialed in the way you hear it best.
  • 07-28-2004, 05:45 PM
    saul
    How Much$$$
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryjam282
    Saul, I am THRILLED with this receiver and Yamaha in general. They really are top notch. I would buy another one in a second...Go with it. I have a brand new RX-V650 for sale with the factory warranty as well. Let me know if you are interested : )

    What do you want for the receiver and why are you selling it? i was looking into the 5790 as well, but what is the major differences? Is there a big difference between the two? Thanks for the reply post earlier.
  • 07-28-2004, 06:19 PM
    ryjam282
    email me Ryan_Withey@ncci.com and we will talk about it......The 5790 basically has a learning remote and about 10 more watts per channel but the remote was the biggest reason I did it. I had to reduce just to just one remote. I have so many, so email me and we will talk about it. Thanks.

    Ryan
  • 07-29-2004, 06:19 AM
    saul
    Hey!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryjam282
    email me Ryan_Withey@ncci.com and we will talk about it......The 5790 basically has a learning remote and about 10 more watts per channel but the remote was the biggest reason I did it. I had to reduce just to just one remote. I have so many, so email me and we will talk about it. Thanks.

    Ryan

    The main reason I like the 5790 over the 650 model is that on the 650 it has a THD % of .06 and on the 5790 it is only .04%. Also, I would prefer a little more wattage for the music mode. Overall, is there a big difference between the two receivers? Thanks for your help. The remote wouldn't be an issue for me because you can always buy a universal w/ learning and macro functions. Thanks again! Saul
  • 07-29-2004, 07:03 AM
    kexodusc
    Oh, dear
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by saul
    The main reason I like the 5790 over the 650 model is that on the 650 it has a THD % of .06 and on the 5790 it is only .04%. Also, I would prefer a little more wattage for the music mode.

    Let's put this into perspecitve. Many tests have proven the human ear to be unable to detect THD as high as 1%, some even say 2%.
    It is generally agreed anything below 1% THD is undetectable. 0.5% THD is very, very undetectable and is good enough. 0.1% could not be detected by God's hearing aid on it's best day. 0.06% is rediculously minute.

    The 0.02% THD difference between those 2 amps is so freakin' insignificant that's it's not even worth mentioning.

    Second, the extra power between the 650 and 1400 or 5790 is probably only somewhat significant. In 2-channel stereo mode the extra 15 watts per channel isn't going to give you squat. With all channels driven, even the 1400/5790's max watt output is going to be considerably reduced below the 110 watts per channel it claims to have. I don't know exactly but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 70 watts per channel, all channels driven. Again, this difference between the 1400/5790's power and 650's power isn't all that signifcant...certainly not to the amount of +3 dB's...which in itself isn't all that noticeable.

    That being said, it doesn't hurt to have more power, but please understand that this extra power is probably only going to make a real world difference of a few percent, only very little of the time.

    The biggest differences between these units are features like Component video upconversion THX DSP and certification, the Parametric EQ, the remote, the number of inputs, phono inputs etc.

    I own the 1400 and I'm very happy with it, but in hindsight I think I paid too much for the extra features...
  • 07-29-2004, 01:39 PM
    ryjam282
    Thanks Kexo, Saul let me know what you decide to do, thanks.

    Ryan
  • 07-29-2004, 04:46 PM
    saul
    Thanks
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Let's put this into perspecitve. Many tests have proven the human ear to be unable to detect THD as high as 1%, some even say 2%.
    It is generally agreed anything below 1% THD is undetectable. 0.5% THD is very, very undetectable and is good enough. 0.1% could not be detected by God's hearing aid on it's best day. 0.06% is rediculously minute.

    The 0.02% THD difference between those 2 amps is so freakin' insignificant that's it's not even worth mentioning.

    Second, the extra power between the 650 and 1400 or 5790 is probably only somewhat significant. In 2-channel stereo mode the extra 15 watts per channel isn't going to give you squat. With all channels driven, even the 1400/5790's max watt output is going to be considerably reduced below the 110 watts per channel it claims to have. I don't know exactly but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 70 watts per channel, all channels driven. Again, this difference between the 1400/5790's power and 650's power isn't all that signifcant...certainly not to the amount of +3 dB's...which in itself isn't all that noticeable.

    That being said, it doesn't hurt to have more power, but please understand that this extra power is probably only going to make a real world difference of a few percent, only very little of the time.

    The biggest differences between these units are features like Component video upconversion THX DSP and certification, the Parametric EQ, the remote, the number of inputs, phono inputs etc.

    I own the 1400 and I'm very happy with it, but in hindsight I think I paid too much for the extra features...




    Is there any difference between the 1400 and the 5790? I currently have an Onkyo 787 receiver and am running Klipsch Reference Series speakers. I use my receiver about 70% HT and 30% Music. Do you think I would notice any improvements or change in sound if I purchased the Yamaha? Also, in your opinion what Yamaha receiver would you recommend between the 5790, 1400, and 650? Thanks for your help!
  • 07-29-2004, 04:49 PM
    Woochifer
    Might be a slight difference in the implementation of the features, but also keep in mind that if you did two separate calibration sessions, all kinds of room variables might have changed in the meantime. Something as simple as street noise or having the ventilation on can alter what the mic picks up. Also, having the mic at a different height or position, or having furniture and speakers in a different position can also change the reading.
  • 07-29-2004, 05:15 PM
    kexodusc
    Saul:
    I'm not terribly familiar with the Onkyo model you have, however, judging by the specs that I looked at, yes, I think you would notice improvements in sound. But I think at this point they'd be relatively minor at best.
    In 2-channel music mode (30% of your use) practically no improvements for you. The improvements that I would expect would mostly be attributable to newer processing capabilities for movies, and YPAO, and maybe some of the other newer features would be desireable. However, unless you can get $400 or so for your receiver at least, I wouldn't even think of upgrading. Do you really need 7 channels? Maybe you do.

    The 5790 and 1400 are identical for all intents and purposes, that is, they have all the same features. Of those 2, I'd get the cheapest one.

    The 650 or (HTR-5760) is a decent receiver, in my opinion a better "value" than the 1400/5790, though I believe it would be a potential step down in amplifier capability for a moderate at best upgrade in features for you.

    You've got a great receiver in that Onkyo, I remember reading alot about it a few years back...Unless you absolutely need a 7th speaker, I think there are better improvements to be had for the money involved...hang on to it for another year or two and pick up a 1400 used. Maybe by then parametric EQ's will be standard on all receivers with even newer processing, and your money will go further with a new unit? You have to ask yourself what do you really want to achieve, and is a receiver the best way to get there?

    Maybe a DVD-A/SACD player would give you more satisfaction? A new subwoofer? Do you have an SPL meter and calibration disc for your system? That alone could revitalize your setup. You can probably get more performance out of that Onkyo with a used SPL meter and setup CD for alot cheaper than the cost of a new receiver.

    For what it's worth, I have the 1400, and shortly after I bought it, the HTR-5760/RX-V650 came out and my neighbor bought it. He paid almost $300 less for the 5760 than I did for the 1400...Though I have the technically better receiver, he made the better purchase in my opinion. You may see different values in it.

    Let us know what you decide to do. Cheers!
  • 07-29-2004, 05:24 PM
    saul
    Hey Thanks for all your help Kexo! I really don't know why I want to get a new receiver first of all. Well, 2 reasons...I've got a buddy that offered me $400 for it and money talks, and the other reason is that I've heard a lot of good reviews on the Yamahas. My father just purchased the 2400 and absolutely loves it! Mine sounds Great to me with lots of power, but I would like to think I'm upgrading for better sound quality that you or I could notice. The cheapest price I've found for the 5790 is $540 w/ shipping and for the 1400 $594 w/ shipping. Take Care!
  • 07-30-2004, 05:57 AM
    ryjam282
    Saul, I will sell you my pretty much brand new 650 for $425. Like I said before, it was basically plugged in and then unplugged a few days later.

    Let me know, and you can check my Ebay feedback if you are worried, my id is cottontown.

    Ryan