Upgrading from a pre/pro

[nightflier]

I am currently using an Outlaw audio pre/pro that is getting long in the tooth (no HDMI, no usable OSD, and a few other quirks). I'm thinking of replacing it with separate video and audio processing components. For the audio, I wanted to go with something a bit higher-end but I don't have the means to buy new, so I could buy something a little bit older from Krell, Anthem, or Arcam, but these have typically no HDMI. To compensate, I was thinking of getting a remote-controlled HDMI switcher and call it a day. Actually, I don't even know where to look for a higher-quality video processor, so I'm at a bit of a loss. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I'm really looking to make a substantial improvement in the sound of my system from the Outlaw. Any suggestions? Caveats I should consider?

[musicman1999]

I run an Anthem Avm-30 and it should be a large upgrade audio wise over your Outlaw.I have been using it for a year ans the sound quality is outstanding. As for video processing, it depends on your display and your sources, if everything is high def and you have a flat panel no need for processing. If you need it, the Anthem Avm-50 has a broadcast quality video processor and the same audio as mine but it is expensive, 6,000-7,000 bucks.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

Marantz will have the AV-8003 pre/pro out soon with HDMI and all the updates for around $2,500.00. Onkyo Pro and the Integra 9.8 also are up to date. i can't say how they do on sound but I will soon know about the Marantz when it hits town because I am looking to that as a possible switch out for my system.

If I do switch to a more modern processor I will have my 31.7 for sale. It only does component. It has multichannel analog inputs but you will need a player with it's own bass management. The big advantage this processor will have is sound quality being made by Primare.

[blackraven]

How about looking at the Emotiva pre/pro?

[blackraven]

A couple of others to consider are the Adcom GTP-870HD and the NAD T-175.

I love my Adcom AVR but it has no HDMI. The GTP-870HD does.

[f0rge]

my advice would probably be to wait for a bit, maybe another 6 months or so.

HDMI 1.3 and bluray are just cementing themselves as the standard and lot's of companies are just starting to come out with products that support them.

the high end stuff you're looking at is almost always slower than the mainstream to keep up with new tech, so i say wait, there will be more products and hopefully some reviews and maybe some price drops once it become less leading edge.

[nightflier]

the high end stuff you're looking at is almost always slower than the mainstream to keep up with new tech, so i say wait, there will be more products and hopefully some reviews and maybe some price drops once it become less leading edge.

This is exactly why I think it makes sense to decouple video from audio. I could see myself using a Primare (very nice unit, BTW, Mr.P) for just the audio processing using 5.1 audio, for example, and then using an HDMI switcher for the video. Now I know HDMI will carry the audio stream as well, but I would loose that in this scenario.

I can't quite bring myself to spend $6K on that Anthem pre/pro, that's a bit over my budget. Also, I've had reservations about Anthem because they only support full upconversion and OSD on their most expensive models, when $300 receivers do it already - to me, it seems like they are artificially leaving basic inexpensive features out of their more affordable models. What I would consider is the NAD, but their stuff seems to dip in value very quick and that also gives me pause.

My thinking is that a pre/pro that is 3-4 years old that was da shizzle then, shouldn't cost too much anymore because it does not have HDMI, DVI, or even component video, but would still run circles around the sound of even the best receivers at BB & CC. I'm thinking Krell, Linn, Proceed, Classe, etc.

On the video side, I would go with an HDMI switcher first, but then eventually upgrade that to a high-end video processor. Any thoughts on makes, brands, etc, that stand out in video processing?

[musicman1999]

I understand that Anthems are not cheap, but quality never is. Btw all models have OSD, although i never use mine and comparing an Anthem to a $300 receiver is really not fair, i don't think anyone would prefer the receiver because it had video upconversion which, if you have a good quality HDTV , is for most people a useless feature. The on board processing of a good set will out perform a stand alone scaler from 5 years ago.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

If you get a processor with multichannel analog inputs and mate it with a BR player that will decode the HD audio formats you will be in like Flynn. I was almost satisfied to stay with my 31.7 but my 1200 lacks bass management and even speakers set up. All they give is select larger or small. It's crazy. At this point I'm not willing to give up my 1200.

[nightflier]

I understand that Anthems are not cheap, but quality never is. Btw all models have OSD, although i never use mine and comparing an Anthem to a $300 receiver is really not fair, i don't think anyone would prefer the receiver because it had video upconversion which, if you have a good quality HDTV , is for most people a useless feature. The on board processing of a good set will out perform a stand alone scaler from 5 years ago.

bill

No offense meant to Anthem's other virtues, but to get OSD on all inputs you have to have at least the AVM-50. And upconversion isn't an option on the lower end models either. I'm not saying they aren't competitive, I'm just saying that if a $300 receiver can do this (presumably at a very minimal cost), then why can the Anthem not do this too, w/o adding $2K to the cost.

But what it really boils down to for me is that video standards (software version numbers, connectors, cables, speeds, etc.) are changing a whole lot faster than audio standards. So this gives me pause when I'm asked to shell out $3-5K on a receiver or pre/pro that will be reaching feature outdatedness, maybe even obsolescence in a couple of years. I'll tell ya, that Onkyo Integra for $1500 is looking a whole lot sweeter than the Anthem right now, at least from the video angle. Sound-wise, I've never cared for Onkyo, though, but maybe I could tame that with a decent complementary amp.

[f0rge]

onkyo pro makes a decent looking pre-amp

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=...eamplifier&p=i

[Rich-n-Texas]

Nightflier, I almost bought an Integra 7.8 receiver, but it was too hard to find, let alone audition in my area. Instead I purchased a Yamaha RX-V3800, mainly because of recommendations by people here; the price at the time was $1099 with an online coupon, and was as futureproof as I could find in the market. It wasn't until sometime later that I realized (for myself) that it didn't deliver the power my speakers craved, so after MORE recommendations from people here (Kex did a review on his) I went ahead and bought an Emotiva LPA-1 external amp which really brought my 5 B&W's to life. My out-the-door cost for both components was about $1.6K, so the bang-for-the-buck in my case is pretty obvious.

[nightflier]

Rich, I hear ya. I've been waiting to see what that upcoming $700-ish Emotiva pre/pro will bring to the table. At that price, it's almost down to the cost of a good quality HDMI switcher. I'm also wondering if Outlaw will come out with something that is a little more user-friendly - there have been grumblings but no announcement yet. Apparently they are having supplier problems (so, who isn't?). I'll say this, that box better have everything the other guys are including if they want to keep me as a customer. Maybe they should stop trying to create another speaker company and focus back on what they are (were?) good at - there are plenty of speakers out there already, but a whole lot fewer quality electronics companies.

I'm not crazy about purchasing a receiver though, the thought of those 6-8 channels of amplification going unused when I plug my own amp in, is painful. I'm also trying to keep the heat down in my TV room. It gets friggin hot in there in the summer and I have no plans to add an aircon unit just for one room - not only would that jack up my energy bill, but it would likely interfere with the audio system.

Speaking of heat, I read that the Anthem pre/pros get pretty toasty as well. This surpises me because pre/pros have no amps. I mean I know they have chips that get hot, but that can be cooled in much the same way computer chips are cooled. In any case, does your pre/pro singe your eyebrows when you get too close or is it passable?

F0rge, what is the price on that Onkyo Pro? Its specs look identical to the Integra's or are they essentially the same thing? I like the dual-monitor outs and the fact it has HD radio and RDS is pretty cool (I wonder if that will be displayed on the TV).

Anything worth considering from Rotel? Arcam? I'm willing to spend $1500 tops, but anything more than that (for a couple of years of usefulness) is out of the question.

[Mr Peabody]

Based on your budget you can write off Arcam, and I seriously doubt if Rotel will come close. It's been awhile since I looked at the NAD T-175 but on a good deal it may come close. Is has HDMI which will accept PCM, it will not have the Tru-HD or DTS-MA and I'm not sure what it has for video.

www.spearitsound.com usually has some "demo/close out" deals, worth keeping your eye on.

[f0rge]

honestly i have no idea on the price of that onkyo, i cant see it costing more than $1500 tho...

but i've been wrong before

[f0rge]

well it turns out i'm wrong lol, it's on ebay for $1599

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Onkyo-PR-SC885P-P...2em118Q2el1247

apparently (according to the guys on avsforums) it's nearly identical to the Integra DTC 9.8, difference being, looks, warranty and most obviously the price, which is about half of the 9.8.

seems like a pretty solid unit to me

[musicman1999]

Speaking of heat, I read that the Anthem pre/pros get pretty toasty as well. This surpises me because pre/pros have no amps. I mean I know they have chips that get hot, but that can be cooled in much the same way computer chips are cooled. In any case, does your pre/pro singe your eyebrows when you get too close or is it passable?

No thats bad info, my Anthem has been on almost continuously for the last year and it is cool to the touch, i just went over and tried it, really. Where ever you got your info i would disregard it. The Anthem target market really does not care about OSD and video up conversion, what matters is the sound quality.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

How do you set up the Athem without OSD? Does the unit at least have a screen on the front? Mine does something stupid and only has OSD from composite, so to be able to adjust anything I have a separate hook up for that. That's annoying to have to switch inputs to see the OSD.

[N. Abstentia]

Personally I'd wait for the new Outlaw pre/pro that is coming out. I'll plan on hanging onto my 990 for a while since the HDMI/DVI works fine for me (I don't care about audio through HDMI) and I don't have any problems with the OSD.

[musicman1999]

How do you set up the Athem without OSD? Does the unit at least have a screen on the front? Mine does something stupid and only has OSD from composite, so to be able to adjust anything I have a separate hook up for that. That's annoying to have to switch inputs to see the OSD.

Mine as well, i ran a cable when i did the initial set up, but it has a screen that is large enough and clear enough that i can see it from my seat so any adjustments are done that way. My previous unit had no OSD at all so i am used to using the front screen.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

It may be inconvenient but at least the OSD would be usable. If one didn't care about HDMI or the latest decoding for BR the processor used market should be a buffet of good deals from those who have or are looking to upgrade.

[musicman1999]

Recently saw a couple of Lexicons for around $500.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

I watched a couple standard DVD's today in my BR player. I still have my digital coax hooked up as well as MC analog. I did some switching back and forth to see what difference there might be. Using standard DVD I didn't expect much and thought the processors DAC should have the edge. This wasn't the case. The comparison was exact though because my processor has the center and rears set to "small". Way back when I thought it was better that way. My 1200 don't have bass management so I set all speakers to large, I didn't think my sub was receiving the proper signal. When switching the analog was also some louder so there was a bit of delay playing with the volume to get to where I thought it was about even from the prior source. The analog from the 1200 just struck me as being better, it was more spread out and room filling. I plan to do some more listening when I'm not actually trying to watch a movie but this really surprised me.

[nightflier]

F0rge, thanks for the link. That's just about the right price range.

Mr. P., I know the Arcams and Anthems are more than $1500, but I'm also open to buying second hand. Just last week there was a Halcro SP100 on eBay that sold for $2300, I think - yes, it's over my budget, but that's one screaming deal.

Regarding the OSD, that's a huge pain for me that Outlaw didn't have the wisdom to allow OSD on anything but composite. I currently use a little LCD TV near my sitting position to change settings since the pre/pro is behind a cabinet door. But c'mon, it's not like this isn't included on $300 Sony receivers. And Outlaw's dogged belief about DVI being more stable (yes it still says so on their website), is just myopic to the extreme. Sorry, Outlaw, but the world has moved on.

Musicman, I really do respect Anthem for their top-flight audio processing. It was a tough call two years ago when I bought the Outlaw, but I just couldn't bring myself to shell out $1500-2K more when the Outlaw was so competitively priced. Since video is so much more important to the vast majority of customers (people here excluded), it just makes no sense for Anthem to continue pretending this isn't so. It's almost as short-sighted as Outlaw with DVI.

Regarding the heat issues, I don't remember where I read that. Maybe I'm confusing them with another brand. Certainly, that's one less strike against them, although I am still not "warming" up to them because of the other issues, LOL.

But the disparity between audio & video is really why I started this thread - some manufacturers excel at one but seldom at both. Isn't this a very good reason to have two pre/pros, one for video and one for audio? Does anyone out there actually make a video-only pre/pro? On the audio-side, PS Audio had a plug-in board for 5.1 audio on their PCA-2 preamps, but that had no other functional features. I can't think of any other company that made something similar. That said, for me, separating the two into their own components makes obsolescence less of a threat, since I can then just replace the one that is outdated.

Come to think of it, a modular unit that has plug-in boards for each function, would work for me. Obviously my computer-oriented bias is reeling it's ugly head, but that's why blade servers are all the rage nowadays. I certainly would be willing to pay a bit more for something that was truly upgradable.

Anyhow, I'm just wondering what kinds of products are out there and where I would go to find more info on them.

[musicman1999]

Nightflier

Do you use a digital display? If so you really have no need for outboard video processing, any good quality digital display will provide all you need. Some companies make, or did make, video processors but unless you have analog cable and a vcr is your main video source, digital video has made them obsolete. Inside your display is where the processing is best done.

bill