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Toshiba HD-A2 Owners
Hey, I'm in the market for a new source as my $39 DVD player may not be the best source for listening to CD's. Since the HD-A2 is only $98, lately I was wondering how it may do for CD playback.
For the record, I don't own any HD TV, so HD video and upconversion are useless at the moment. I'm in need of a "better" CD player but on a budget of ZERO, but may be able to trick the wife on this one????
PS(edit), The rest of the system is as follows:
HK AV-245
Quad 22L Mains, L-Center, Axiom QS-8 Surrounds
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Have you thought about ebay or audiogon for a CD player?
I assume your using a digital connection to your HK. You would need a player with better DAC's than your HK for an improvement in sound.
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I actually am using the Analog outs from the DVD player. I found HUGE improvements in sound quality when I switched from the Coaxial Outs to the analog outs.
I've thought about Audiogon and Ebay for a player. Just seeing if this was a "better/cheaper option":confused5:
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Interesting, I would assume that the HK would have higher quality DAC's. Hard to say if the A2 would give any improvements. Is it even still available for $98? Last I heard, that sell was over.
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With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:
Anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead with a carousel unit in their setup. And you would think that someone who claims to have your knowledge of things would know that firsthand, then again I doubt with your setup that you would notice how good or bad a carousel unit can be, but you certainly don't see high-end manufacturers selling carousels and there is a reason for that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead with a carousel unit in their setup. And you would think that someone who claims to have your knowledge of things would know that firsthand, then again I doubt with your setup that you would notice how good or bad a carousel unit can be, but you certainly don't see high-end manufacturers selling carousels and there is a reason for that.
When you say "carousel" does that included cd players with "changers" in them? How would that affect playback. I honestly don't know, and just wondering how a changer/carousel would affect playback.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
When you say "carousel" does that included cd players with "changers" in them? How would that affect playback. I honestly don't know, and just wondering how a changer/carousel would affect playback.
Often the biggest problem is the time-alignment and the mechanical aspects inside them often times mis-align the discs to small degrees, which can result in problematic playback, this doesn't mean you are hearing a problem, but you are not hearing everything you could or should. A single-loading mechanism and high-end player puts lots of time, effort, and energy into developing a mechanism that allows the CD to balance properly inside the tray for accurate laser reading and time-alignment. Carousel units do not feature these things, they are made primarily as a feature that is convenient for people who like to play multiple discs in settings such as a party where you don't want to keep changing discs.
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How about a single loading CD-R with a hard drive that let's you save a goodly amount of CD's?
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If you don't have a HDTV and you're fine with your existing DVD player playback, there's no reason whatsoever to make the upgrade at this time. HD-DVD player prices will continue to plunge, and that $98 special is on a discontinued early model that lacks 1080p capability and HDMI 1.3. Get the HD-DVD player when you're ready, and by that time the $98 price point might very well be the norm for models with more up-to-date feature sets and more of the bugs worked out.
If you want improved CD player playback, look to a standalone CD player, or perhaps even something that can play multichannel music discs like a CD/SACD changer (Sony's entry level CD/SACD changers have been very well reviewed for their CD playback) or a universal player that does DVDs, SACDs, and DVD-As. Even if you don't use those players for multichannel music (admittedly, the discs are getting hard to find nowadays), they typically include higher quality DACs and output circuitry than you would typically find in an entry level DVD player.
Also, if you're noticing huge differences between your coaxial digital and analog playback, you should first make sure that your listenings are truly equal -- i.e., same output levels (louder usually equates to better when doing uncontrolled A/B comparisons), same DSP settings, same bass management settings, etc. Generally, under more controlled conditions, any differences will be more subtle than huge/obvious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Often the biggest problem is the time-alignment and the mechanical aspects inside them often times mis-align the discs to small degrees, which can result in problematic playback, this doesn't mean you are hearing a problem, but you are not hearing everything you could or should. A single-loading mechanism and high-end player puts lots of time, effort, and energy into developing a mechanism that allows the CD to balance properly inside the tray for accurate laser reading and time-alignment. Carousel units do not feature these things, they are made primarily as a feature that is convenient for people who like to play multiple discs in settings such as a party where you don't want to keep changing discs.
PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.
The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.
Not to mention the fact that CDs have the built-in 8-bit CIRC code that underlies the 16-bit audio data. With the CIRC code in place, it's possible to have a CD playback with no read errors, even with the physical imperfections that all discs have, because missing bits are seamlessly reinserted into the audio data. Only if the errors go beyond the CIRC code's correction capacity do portions of the audio data go missing. And here, the CD player can use interpolation to fill in the gaps, or just let the gaps go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.
I remember that RGA (one of the more obsessive sound quality sticklers on this site over the years) owns one of those Sony 300 CD changers, so I don't know where PS goes presuming that "anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead" with a CD changer.
Plus, the majority of Sony's ES series SACD players, which are very well reviewed not only for SACD playback but for how they sound with CDs as well (which I concur with since I have a SCD-C2000ES plugged into my system), have been the carousel variety. The higher end carousel models have been mentioned by reviewers as very stable transport platforms.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Also, if you're noticing huge differences between your coaxial digital and analog playback, you should first make sure that your listenings are truly equal -- i.e., same output levels (louder usually equates to better when doing uncontrolled A/B comparisons), same DSP settings, same bass management settings, etc. Generally, under more controlled conditions, any differences will be more subtle than huge/obvious
Not only A/B comparisons, but A (digital) for quite some time, then B (analog). Usually the only DSP mode I use is the 7 channel stereo so I can hear the music in every room. Every other setting was the same, or at the very least the sub level was changed since the analog had more bottom end (high end as well).
Yesterday, I hooked up my Play Station 2 to the reciever. I have it hooked up both with the Optical out and Analog out as well. The sound is MUCH cleaner and clearer (neutral?) than the $39 DVD player (although it skips on every little smudge and scratch). FINALLY, the highs sound better. I wasn't satisfied with my Quad's highs,previously although everyone else claimed that the highs were fine. Not only that, but the Digital out is better than the analog in this case.Maybe the PS2 has a good Digital out and crappy DAC??? I was amazed at how much coloration the DVD player added. The PS2 made "space" or no sound in quiet areas of music if that makes sense. At first, I was somewhat annoyed by the PS2 because I was hearing some kind of noise. It turns out that it was the snare on the bottom of the drum rattling. HOLY CRAP, I can't wait to see what a REAL CD player will sound like.
Anyway, I'm still browsing for a player. I've considered the HK DVD 47 since it can do SACD and DVDA and there seem to be some bargains on the net for them. All in all, it will depend on how cheap I can find something. Doesn't life suck when you have no budget????
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.
The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.
What experience do you have with high-end players? And I am not talking about Denon, Technics, or Yamaha, but companies like EMM Labs, Goldmund, Gryphon, etc etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
What experience do you have with high-end players? And I am not talking about Denon, Technics, or Yamaha, but companies like EMM Labs, Goldmund, Gryphon, etc etc.
Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.
I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.
Any more questions?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salad 419
Not only A/B comparisons, but A (digital) for quite some time, then B (analog). Usually the only DSP mode I use is the 7 channel stereo so I can hear the music in every room. Every other setting was the same, or at the very least the sub level was changed since the analog had more bottom end (high end as well).
Yesterday, I hooked up my Play Station 2 to the reciever. I have it hooked up both with the Optical out and Analog out as well. The sound is MUCH cleaner and clearer (neutral?) than the $39 DVD player (although it skips on every little smudge and scratch). FINALLY, the highs sound better. I wasn't satisfied with my Quad's highs,previously although everyone else claimed that the highs were fine. Not only that, but the Digital out is better than the analog in this case.Maybe the PS2 has a good Digital out and crappy DAC??? I was amazed at how much coloration the DVD player added. The PS2 made "space" or no sound in quiet areas of music if that makes sense. At first, I was somewhat annoyed by the PS2 because I was hearing some kind of noise. It turns out that it was the snare on the bottom of the drum rattling. HOLY CRAP, I can't wait to see what a REAL CD player will sound like.
Anyway, I'm still browsing for a player. I've considered the HK DVD 47 since it can do SACD and DVDA and there seem to be some bargains on the net for them. All in all, it will depend on how cheap I can find something. Doesn't life suck when you have no budget????
First off, you have a lot of variables that you need to control for before you go assigning causal effects to what you're listening. Anytime you compare an analog output with a digital output, you absolutely have to control for the levels first and foremost.
Comparing the DVD player with the PS2, was that a digital-digital comparison? In that case, both players are using the receiver's DACs. You're only using the players as transports in that case.
Only in an analog-analog comparison are you listening thru the players' internal DACs. And even then, your receivers' analog inputs is likely doing a redundant analog-to-digital-to-analog conversion, particularly if you are using the receiver's bass management or DSP settings, since all of that processing is done in the digital domain. Only if you have some kind of "direct" mode and switch off the bass management and DSP modes is there any chance of the analog signal getting passed directly to the receiver's preamp section with no redundant digital conversion.
If you have no budget right now, then you should save up more for a dedicated CD player if that's your priority. Getting a HD-DVD player when you're really looking for improved CD audio at this point is a waste of $98.
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Dvd Player
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:
I have a denon 1600 dvd player that cost $550.00, It is a really nice player with a audio only button on the front panel for playing cd's, I also have a denon dcm 280 - 5 disc cd player that cost around $275.00. When it comes to playing cd's the 280 -5 disc cd player flat out sounds better than the more $ dvd player, The dvd player does not sound as warm and the bass is weak.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.
I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.
Any more questions?
Then I'm willing to bet you don't have experience with the ones you have listed either. I'd like to see some pictures of your setup if you do though. I have played around with a variety of high-end gear and have been to shows and demoed lots of equipment over the past few years, I am quite aware of the high-end market and desire to own the best equipment out there as time allows.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Then I'm willing to bet you don't have experience with the ones you have listed either. I'd like to see some pictures of your setup if you do though. I have played around with a variety of high-end gear and have been to shows and demoed lots of equipment over the past few years, I am quite aware of the high-end market and desire to own the best equipment out there as time allows.
You have played around with stuff, I have owned it. So what you need to do is go back to overanalyzing movies in the most subjective way you know how, and stop trying to spread untruths about the mechanics of things you do not know about. If you haven't lived with good stuff, then you do not know about it. Playing around with it gives you only a cursory experience with the equipment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You have played around with stuff, I have owned it. So what you need to do is go back to overanalyzing movies in the most subjective way you know how, and stop trying to spread untruths about the mechanics of things you do not know about. If you haven't lived with good stuff, then you do not know about it. Playing around with it gives you only a cursory experience with the equipment.
Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
If you have no budget right now, then you should save up more for a dedicated CD player if that's your priority. Getting a HD-DVD player when you're really looking for improved CD audio at this point is a waste of $98.
I believe that this is the advice I was looking for.
Now I just have to research to find the type of player that will have the right synergy with my current gear as well as my upgrades :)
Thanks guys
Also, I don't mind if/when you bust my balls. I'm here to learn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.
LJ, you are right. You advice is well taken. Thanks bud.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.
I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.
Any more questions?
And how many of these are Carousel units? These are all good units and such, but they are still affordable in most peoples cases, unlike perhaps the Goldmund reference or the MLB stuff, which costs upwards of $70,000. So owning this is not exactly on everyones list, but unless you have some in your home, I think you'd better shut up about 'owning stuff'.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.
I'm glad you follow him around like a little well-trained lap dog too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
I'm glad you follow him around like a little well-trained lap dog too.
Sssshhhhh...........:Yawn:
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