Toshiba HD-A2 Owners

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And how many of these are Carousel units? These are all good units and such, but they are still affordable in most peoples cases, unlike perhaps the Goldmund reference or the MLB stuff, which costs upwards of $70,000. So owning this is not exactly on everyones list, but unless you have some in your home, I think you'd better shut up about 'owning stuff'.

[PeruvianSkies]

Sssshhhhh...........

What's the matter? Truth hurt?

[pixelthis]

PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.

The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.

THANKS
I have a sony 300 disc player and while its mainly for storage it does sound quite good.
I have also had a yamaha five disc that was really great.
I used a Sony laserdisc and like Peruvian dismissed these players, was quite surprized
to hear how they sounded, especially when you bypass the dac and use your receivers DAC.
The snobbery displayed by peruvian is rampant in the audio world, but the truth is that
on "higher end" players you're just getting cosmetics and maybe a better DAC.
Most of these "high end" units use the Sony or denon drive units.
HIGH END MANUFACTURERS CLAIM THESE UNITS ARE "IMPROVED"
but never quite explain how.
And only a german sherpard could tell the difference. I have had players costing hundreds
of dollars, but now that most of my collection is on hard drive I see little reason for the expense, considering the small amount of improvement (if any) and the few times I listen to CD these days, when I listen to a single disc its usually a SACD or DVDAUDIO.
The CD as a format is dead, basically, the hard drive is the future

[emaidel]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.

Insofar as carousel units, I seriously doubt the ultra high-end units will ever be designed that way, but my Adcom GCD-600 changer does a pretty good job of playback, especially so when connected to the outboard Adcom GDA-600 D/A converter. That combination runs rings around an older Denon 1500 MkII, (not a carousel) but I'm sure, pales when compared to separate transport/D/A converter combos running into the many thousands of dollars.

Adcom always did a fine job of providing near high-end performance at a fraction of the cost of such equipment, and these two units are perfect examples of that philosophy. So, a blanket statement that carousel units are somehow by nature inferior isn't quite true.

This is much the same argument used in the 70's against so-called record "changers." The very idea that they were capable of stacking records (something audiophiles cringed about), and had gears, springs and other such parts to allow for automatic playback relegated them to the back of the line, compared to strictly manual tables. Not surprisingly, many of these "automatic turntables," as they were called, made excellent automatic single-play units, which definitely held their own against manual tables from other manufacturers. Dual is certainly a case in point: the TOTL Dual "changer" vastly outperformed anything from Technics in the days past, but the fact that Duals were automatic made many steer clear from tham.

My two cents.

[L.J.]

Emaidel, you have a A2 right? I think you did a review a while back. How's it working out for you? Any freezing during playback? Have you did a firmware update yet? Any sync problems?

[emaidel]

It's not an A-2, but an A-20K, or something like that. It's the one that currently sells at Best Buy for $299.95. I had it freeze up once, and all I did was disconnect the power to it, and since then it's been fine. I've done no updates to it and have no idea what that entails, or if it's something I can do by myself. Still, I'm very satisfied with it, except for the slloooowwwww startup time.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.
.

Wow, I am surprised to hear this about the A2's CD playback. I owned(and still own) a Toshiba A1, and its CD playback is probably one of its best virtues. The same goes for the XA-2, great CD playback. Well maybe I am not so surprised, to keep the price down Toshiba had to cut so many good things that were on the A1(like 5.1 analog outs, and multiple sharc DSP's), that is actually is not the value that the A1 seemed to be.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It's not an A-2, but an A-20K, or something like that. It's the one that currently sells at Best Buy for $299.95. I had it freeze up once, and all I did was disconnect the power to it, and since then it's been fine. I've done no updates to it and have no idea what that entails, or if it's something I can do by myself. Still, I'm very satisfied with it, except for the slloooowwwww startup time.

Yo E,
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you.

[GMichael]

Yo E,
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you.

This looks like a good link to get Toshiba down loads. Didn't notice if his model is on there.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/customer...es_notices.asp

Beats calling them.

[L.J.]

I read somewhere that people where having sync issues once they installed the firmware update for the A2. I haven't hit any issues yet, but I'm thinking I won't do a update unless it was absolutely necessary.

[PeruvianSkies]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.

Insofar as carousel units, I seriously doubt the ultra high-end units will ever be designed that way, but my Adcom GCD-600 changer does a pretty good job of playback, especially so when connected to the outboard Adcom GDA-600 D/A converter. That combination runs rings around an older Denon 1500 MkII, (not a carousel) but I'm sure, pales when compared to separate transport/D/A converter combos running into the many thousands of dollars.

Adcom always did a fine job of providing near high-end performance at a fraction of the cost of such equipment, and these two units are perfect examples of that philosophy. So, a blanket statement that carousel units are somehow by nature inferior isn't quite true.

This is much the same argument used in the 70's against so-called record "changers." The very idea that they were capable of stacking records (something audiophiles cringed about), and had gears, springs and other such parts to allow for automatic playback relegated them to the back of the line, compared to strictly manual tables. Not surprisingly, many of these "automatic turntables," as they were called, made excellent automatic single-play units, which definitely held their own against manual tables from other manufacturers. Dual is certainly a case in point: the TOTL Dual "changer" vastly outperformed anything from Technics in the days past, but the fact that Duals were automatic made many steer clear from tham.

My two cents.

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

[pixelthis]

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

Ah yes, the infamous "critical" listening where so called "audiophiles" claim minute differences in players that are worth spending big bucks on.
Not that it matters, its the twilight of the CD anyway.
And I liked dual, and sometimes for monetary had to use a "changer" for records,
but the primary objection to these were that they were rough on records, and most used ceramic cartriges that were also rough on records.
I have records bought new that have never seen a changer or a ceramic cartrige,
and are not as good as new but in good shape, and the few times I was stuck with one
I always used it as a single play unit.
Back to CD players, sure a single tray unit will have more stability, and maybe a better DAC, but use your pre-pro dac and the dac issue in non-existent, and while the snob
factor keeps "audiophiles" away from changers, of all types, they have never been shown
to suffer from the type of tray they use.
Truth is, like sir t said, as long as the ones and zeros are read, thats all that matters,
but DVD players of all types suffer from bad CD playback. probably because so little of their resources are devoted to such

[emaidel]

[
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll try contacting them online first - that ususally works since no live people are involved. "Customer Service," regrettably, has become a thing of the past for numerous companies. Try contacting customer service for DirecTV and see what a delightful experience that is!

[GMichael]

[
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll try contacting them online first - that ususally works since no live people are involved. "Customer Service," regrettably, has become a thing of the past for numerous companies. Try contacting customer service for DirecTV and see what a delightful experience that is!

I deal with Toshiba every day. Trust me, go on-line.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

The quality of the analog stages, the cleanliness of the digital signal path, and the quality of the DAC has far more effect on what you hear than than whether a tray is a single, or mutli disc tray. If I put high quality DAC, a clean high quality analog stage, and a very clean digital signal path on a multidisc player, that pretty much squashes your claims, and describes the Sony 300 disc player.

[PeruvianSkies]

The quality of the analog stages, the cleanliness of the digital signal path, and the quality of the DAC has far more effect on what you hear than than whether a tray is a single, or mutli disc tray. If I put high quality DAC, a clean high quality analog stage, and a very clean digital signal path on a multidisc player, that pretty much squashes your claims, and describes the Sony 300 disc player.

These 'claims' are not just mine, but what high-end units claim as well, so take it up with them if you disagree. I only confirm that I have had better success with single-tray players over carousel and it's really hard to compare since you can't buy a high-end carousel unit to accurately compare to a single-tray, but again there is a reason why high-end manufacturer's don't deal with carousels.

Tell me again, how many of those CD players that you mentioned (once owning) were carousels?

Once owning and owning are two different things, why don't you own them anymore?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

These 'claims' are not just mine, but what high-end units claim as well, so take it up with them if you disagree. I only confirm that I have had better success with single-tray players over carousel and it's really hard to compare since you can't buy a high-end carousel unit to accurately compare to a single-tray, but again there is a reason why high-end manufacturer's don't deal with carousels.

Tell me again, how many of those CD players that you mentioned (once owning) were carousels?

Once owning and owning are two different things, why don't you own them anymore?

Just what "high end units" are making this claim? I have never heard of a high end "unit" making any claim. Your success is your success, you failure is your failure. Your success are not mine, your failures are not mine. So once again, who are these "units" that make this claim?

I never said any of the high end CD players I mention where carousel units. You asked me a question, I answered it. That question was not related to carousel units, it was related to what high end CD players I have owned. Surprised you do not even remember the contexted of your own question. Well maybe not.

[PeruvianSkies]

Just what "high end units" are making this claim? I have never heard of a high end "unit" making any claim. Your success is your success, you failure is your failure. Your success are not mine, your failures are not mine. So once again, who are these "units" that make this claim?

I never said any of the high end CD players I mention where carousel units. You asked me a question, I answered it. That question was not related to carousel units, it was related to what high end CD players I have owned. Surprised you do not even remember the contexted of your own question. Well maybe not.

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

[emaidel]

I deal with Toshiba every day. Trust me, go on-line.

I followed your advice and sent them an email over an hour ago. So far, nothing, but then it's "only" been an hour....

[GMichael]

I followed your advice and sent them an email over an hour ago. So far, nothing, but then it's "only" been an hour....

An email? That may not work any better than the call. Depends on their mood that day.

You'll want to go on their website and find what you need for yourself. You'll find an answer much faster that way.

[L.J.]

Yeah, I think you can just download the update and burn it to a disc.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/tacpasse...d2firmware.asp


Link to instructions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876566

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Do not forget to stand in front of the mirror on this one, because this would only apply to you.

Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Proof and relevance please. Because I am going to tell ya, I have owned two carousel units, and the alignment must have been perfect because they both played discs exceptionally well. If a disc is not in perfect alignment for the laser to read the disc, it will skip frequently, or it won't play at all. Either it reads the disc, or it cannot. There is no such thing as reading it better than the next. This is digital 0 and 1's, not vinyl who's needle and cartridge are subject to playback distortion if not correctly aligned.

Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

I am aware of both manufacturers. However, there is a point of diminishing returns on a DVD transport that cost $75k. I completely understand their use of special isolation platforms and clamping to control disc balance. However, the question is, how do both of these make a disc play better? How do you isolate that from the fact that they use exceptionally high quality DACs, high quality digital components in the digital signal path, and the analog section is well isolated from the digital components? I would argue that the latter does more than the former in getting excellent sound.

If I take two players with the same internal electronics and signal paths, high quality DAC, with one having the specialized clamps and the other not, could you really hear the difference? I would think most would not hear the effects of a specialized clamping system.

The prices that both of these manufacturers charge for their products is not in line with the quality of the parts, and the design of the products. They represent "statement" pieces of which all of the specialized "design" enhancements have a rather dubious effect on sound quality. And lastly, very few people would purchase a statement piece for $75k. So even mentioning it on this board is completely out the realm of helpfulness for most.

So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

Perv, sorry but this makes no sense at all. Either the laser can read the disc, or it cannot. There is no nuance to that. Where the nuance comes in is in the processing, decimation stage, and D/A conversion, not whether a CD player has a fancy clamping and stabilizing system.

[pixelthis]

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

Alingment is NOT essential as long as the ones and zeros are read.
This is what drove "audiophiles" back to turntables, an inexpensive CD player sounded quite good, about as good as an expensive one, main difference is the dacs.
Sir T, I have never heard about the dacs in a sony 300 CD changer, I will try them (I have been using the dac in my Integra receiver, just asumed it was better)
And PERUVIAN, I had a Yamaha, five disc changer, a yamaha single disc, sold the five disc to a friend, don't miss it much, its just more conveinent to listen off of your computer
and with lossless codecs like FLAC and APE the sound quality is quite good.
Which BRINGS UP A QUESTION FOR SIR T, when is the industry going to produce a portable player that supports lossless codecs? Seems like in a crowded market this would be a good selling point, or are people interested in good sound too small a market?