Subwoofer with music: Yes or No?

The question is simple:

If you have two channel system with floor standing speakers and listening to music only, would you integrate a sub into your system or not?

My answer would be a definite yes. Even if main speakers are capable of producing bass frequencys, it lack advanatges of having a dedicated sub. Such as ideal subwoofer location for best bass frequency responce, and more "sonic" control over those frequency range.

Not to mention less stress on the main amplifier if a subwoofer take care of the bass :)

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Originally Posted by Smokey

The question is simple:

If you have two channel system with floor standing speakers and listening to music only, would you integrate a sub into your system or not?

My answer would be a definite yes. Even if main speakers are capable of producing bass frequencys, it lack advanatges of having a dedicated sub. Such as ideal subwoofer location for best bass frequency responce, and more "sonic" control over those frequency range.

Not to mention less stress on the main amplifier if a subwoofer take care of the bass :)

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I say 'yes'. My main speakers are -3dB at about 45Hz and roll off at 18dB/octave. I run them full range but use a subwoofer to carry the bottom octave -- not that there's a lot of music down there,

Yes, as long as the user has the proper use of a subwoofer clear.

1) It's not supposed to augment within the range that the mains already reproduce. It's to extend the low end where the mains naturally fall off.

2) It's not going to add any notes or sounds that aren't already in the recording.

Personally, I find a subwoofer isn't really needed for most music, assuming decent "full range" speakers to begin with.

My answer is yes. I use two TL subs for two channel playback.

Unless you have a VERY big speaker for two channel(the larger Wilsons, Revel Salon's, and other speakers capable of extended range output) then a subwoofer is a must.

They have so many integration tools these days, the excuse of integration issues is basically moot.

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Originally Posted by markw

1) It's not supposed to augment within the range that the mains already reproduce. It's to extend the low end where the mains naturally fall off.

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That is true. But with moderrn amplifier's bass management options such as setting main to "small" or "large", we are no longer "slave" to extend of main's low end where it naturally fall off.

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Originally Posted by Sir TT

Unless you have a VERY big speaker for two channel(the larger Wilsons, Revel Salon's, and other speakers capable of extended range output) then a subwoofer is a must.

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Even with VERY big speakers with extended range output, wouldn't say a subwoofer is must?---as dedicated subwoofer still have advantage of location superiority for better bass responce.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

If you have two channel system with floor standing speakers and listening to music only, would you integrate a sub into your system or not?

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I think it is a matter of priorities. For me, first octave response is the last priority. I'd much rather direct funds towards improving the overall system first. Precious few recordings have genuine first octave bass.

I use a sub in the garage system with the Acoustats because it was left over from an HT purchase from long ago.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

That is true. But with moderrn amplifier's bass management options such as setting main to "small" or "large", we are no longer "slave" to extend of main's low end where it naturally fall off.

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HT is one thing but for music, why would you not want that? It would make a more coherent sound stage.

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Originally Posted by markw

HT is one thing but for music, why would you not want that? It would make a more coherent sound stage.

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Modern Amplifiers have no bass management. Modern HT Receivers do and it is intended for HT and not 2ch music, although it's there to make you think that. Good Modern Amplifiers do one thing, take an input signal and amplify it. Garbage in = Garbage out.

As for the original question, sometimes yes and sometimes no. When I use my Dynaudio 82s, I never even think of turning on the sub. When I use my Clearfields, I sometimes do flip it on if recording is bass shy and I am listening at lower levels in Passive mode.

I much prefer to hear the detail and clarity that a good speaker displays then have bone thumping bass without. There are good musical subs out there and it takes a lot of time, placement and playing to get them properly integrated and un-noticed in the mix.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Modern Amplifiers have no bass management. Modern HT Receivers do and it is intended for HT and not 2ch music, although it's there to make you think that. Good Modern Amplifiers do one thing, take an input signal and amplify it. Garbage in = Garbage out.

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This is my point exactly. What I finds works best, particularly with music, is to run the amp and main speaker full range and simply use the crossover in the powered sub as a low-pass filter that comes into play right about where my mains start to fall off, keeping in mind that it's not a brick wall fiter. In the case ofthe Maggies, that was somewhere around 50 - 60 hz.

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Originally Posted by markw

This is my point exactly. What I finds works best, particularly with music, is to run the amp and main speaker full range and simply use the crossover in the powered sub as a low-pass filter that comes into play right about where my mains start to fall off, keeping in mind that it's not a brick wall fiter. In the case ofthe Maggies, that was somewhere around 50 - 60 hz.

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Well as you heard the other day with my Clearfields, when the music had good bass, and it was cranked enough, it needed no sub and with the sub on it did not make things way better, maybe less detailed if anything. But thats just my sub and setup, I'm sure others may have better luck to their own ears.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Well as you heard the other day with my Clearfields, when the music had good bass, and it was cranked enough, it needed no sub and with the sub on it did not make things way better, maybe less detailed if anything. But thats just my sub and setup, I'm sure others may have better luck to their own ears.

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And your system is very nice. I did notice minimal effect when the sub was kicked in simply because that particular piece of music really had no "sub-worthy" information in it to begin with. I didn't note a smearing of clarity and the effect I did hear I attributed to the slope of the subs crossover allowing a bit of creep into the range of your fine mains.

As I said earlier, given good speakers, which yours most certainly are, I don't really think most music really benefits from a sub excepting, of course, organ, synth and other rarities.

My opinion is that it is dependent on the speakers used for one thing and only if installed and crossed over right should a sub be used to music. I agree that a sub will have capabilities that all but the most expensive and large speakers have and if set up right with the main speakers will add to the experience it is rare that a system using a sub has a perfect blend with the main speakers. This is something I have been thinking about a long time and have come to the conclusion that I will need to build my own sealed enclosure custom built sub in order to get everything I want a sub dedicated to music to do. Most subs that companies build have either home theater yon the mind or music with also a home theater capability. You hardly ever see subs that only are built for music. While they are out there they are way to expensive for what they have in them component wise so I have decided that building my own will give me the most for my money.

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Originally Posted by markw

HT is one thing but for music, why would you not want that? It would make a more coherent sound stage.

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School of thought is that ideal system for music is two bookshelf speakers with a sub--base on assumption that sub can produce better bass than main speakers. But for full range speakers as main, that argument does not hold true unless we can manipulate its natural falling low frequency.

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Originally Posted by HyFi

Well as you heard the other day with my Clearfields, when the music had good bass, and it was cranked enough, it needed no sub and with the sub on it did not make things way better, maybe less detailed if anything.

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Your sub probably is not in ideal room location. I did an experiment where I place the subwoofer in the listening chair and turn on a heavy bass music, and then I start crawling on the floor on hands and knees (like a dog :D) with my ear listening to bass in different room locations.

It is amazing how much bass will sound diiferent from one location to the next. One corner of the room the bass is overwhelming, while in another corner it is just thumping sound, and some other corner it is just perfect. You just have to find that perfect spot.

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Originally Posted by harley .guy07

You hardly ever see subs that only are built for music.

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You probably have better luck with sealed subwoofer for music than ported sub :)

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Originally Posted by Smokey

School of thought is that ideal system for music is two bookshelf speakers with a sub--base on assumption that sub can produce better bass than main speakers. But for full range speakers as main, that argument does not hold true unless we can manipulate its natural falling low frequency.

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I do wonder what school you went to but, hey, whatever turns you on.

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Originally Posted by markw

I do wonder what school you went to but, hey, whatever turns you on.

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Isn't that the "Bose - School of Thought?"

I have heard many a system where you would not want or need a sub. I have also heard some incredible "Bookshelf" speakers that you would swear were floorstanders.

Smokey, you need to get out more and really listen to some quality gear as opposed to just reading about it. You may be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

School of thought is that ideal system for music is two bookshelf speakers with a sub--base on assumption that sub can produce better bass than main speakers. But for full range speakers as main, that argument does not hold true unless we can manipulate its natural falling low frequency.

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I thinks this is true, but the necessity for "manipulation" depends on having complementary high- & low-low pass crossovers. Typically vented speakers roll off at 18 dB per octave; typically subwoofer low-pass filter is a 12 or 18 dB per octave. Good result is possible likely if the sub's low-pass is set to the mains' natural -3 dB point. So I have Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's that I run full range; their roll off is about -3 dB @ 45 Hz with -18 dB/octave so I set my sub's low-pass correspondingly

Of course there is the option of having a have a external active crossover component such as a Behringer CX2310, (here).

When I was using Magneplanar MMG's and my PSB Subsonic 6, I used the Subsonic 6's built-in 80 Hz high-pass to feed only frequencies above that to the MMGs, and the complementary low-pass. The results were highly satisfactory. I got deep, solid bass without the inherent bass limitations of the MMG.

Smokey, I have heard plenty of speakers that put out plenty of satisfying bass without out a sub. The PSB Synchrony's, Salk Veracity HTR3's, Theil's, Paradigm, Dyn Audio to name a few. With that being said, I run a sub with my Magnepan 1.6's much in the same way Feanor does but I could live without it. Certainly I can see the benefit or running a sub with bookshelf speakers.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

Isn't that the "Bose - School of Thought?"

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Dr Bose did base his cubic and modulare sub system on that school of thoughts, but he geared it toward HT rather than music.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

Good result is possible likely if the sub's low-pass is set to the mains' natural -3 dB point. So I have Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's that I run full range; their roll off is about -3 dB @ 45 Hz with -18 dB/octave so I set my sub's low-pass correspondingly.

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I know it is alot of work, but have you tried to manipulate the roll-off of MG 1.6QR's from 45hz to higher roll off point.

Alot of people set their subwoofer cross over settings according to main speakers natural fall off. But alot of factors such as room acoustics and location of main speakers can throw a curve as how main speakers can handle bass frequecy vs where a sub can be manipuletd to address those acoustic shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by blackraven

Smokey, I have heard plenty of speakers that put out plenty of satisfying bass without out a sub. The PSB Synchrony's, Salk Veracity HTR3's, Theil's, Paradigm, Dyn Audio to name a few.

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There is no denying that alot of speakers out ther have satisfying bass without sub. But my argument was does quality of those speaker's bass can match the bass of sub that is in ideal room location. My answer would be no :)

I would put the Salk HTR3's with their 10" sea's woofer up against most subs for best integration with the speaker.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

I know it is alot of work, but have you {Feanor} tried to manipulate the roll-off of MG 1.6QR's from 45hz to higher roll off point.

Alot of people set their subwoofer cross over settings according to main speakers natural fall off. But alot of factors such as room acoustics and location of main speakers can throw a curve as how main speakers can handle bass frequecy vs where a sub can be manipuletd to address those acoustic shortcomings.
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There is no denying that alot of speakers out ther have satisfying bass without sub. But my argument was does quality of those speaker's bass can match the bass of sub that is in ideal room location. My answer would be no :)

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It is a very good point that the sub can be place any place in the room that offers the best possible performance, (whereas the woofers of a full-range mains have to to where the tweeter/mids deliver best performance). Although I suppose the main - sub crossover ought not to be higher than 80 Hz to assure full channel separation.

No, I haven't tried to manipulate my MG 1.6 to sub crossover. I don't perceive the need in my instance. And, unlike the MMG's, the MG 1.6's can provide enough bass output down to their natural roll-off that their lower frequencies don't benefit by being replaced by the subwoofer's.

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Originally Posted by Smokey

There is no denying that alot of speakers out ther have satisfying bass without sub. But my argument was does quality of those speaker's bass can match the bass of sub that is in ideal room location. My answer would be no :)

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I am confused. The bass that a sub puts out, or that it is supposed to be crossed over at, is not the same frequencies as what the main speaker is putting out. So how can you compare the "quality" of the two? A sub can go deeper.

So yes in many speakers, the quality of the bass frequencies put out can far outmatch the quality of "most" subs on the market. There are a few mega-buck subs, like the Rock of Gibralter, that put out very high quality LFE. Main speakers are not supposed to do LFE.

Now I have no idea what speakers you have or what you drive them with, but I again urge you to Listen as much as you Read.

I'll take these speaks that go down to 19hz-

SoundScape 12 specifications

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

I am confused. The bass that a sub puts out, or that it is supposed to be crossed over at, is not the same frequencies as what the main speaker is putting out. So how can you compare the "quality" of the two? A sub can go deeper.

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Some times they do overlap, particulary between 40 to 80hz. Natural cut off frequecy for most sub is around 70 to 90 hz, and if your receiver have bass managment options, you can set your main speaker cross over frequecy at around 80 hz. Ofcourse room acoustics will throw a monkey wrench at those settings :)

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Originally Posted by blackraven

I'll take these speaks that go down to 19hz-

SoundScape 12 specifications

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This speaker has a built in sub module. Without it, the speaker is not full range.