Subwoofer & DSP

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  • 12-17-2003, 12:32 PM
    jackz4000
    Subwoofer & DSP
    I was planning to hook up a Pioneer vsx-d3s receiver (130rms per ch)with a subwoofer via the sub out. I was going to use this set-up only for cd music stereo playback with my mains and B speakers...no HT. Pioneer advised me to use the DSP mode for the sub, the 2 channels will create sound for the subwoofer. Am I stuck having to use the DSP modes to use the subwoofer??? Is there a better way for unprocessed subwoofer bass??? Thanks, Jack
  • 12-17-2003, 12:57 PM
    Willow
    what mode do you listen to...stereo ??? you may need to connect the speakers directly to the sub w/ speaker cables then from the sub to the receiver if the sub doesnt work when plug in the sub out. if you use this method it is suggested not to plug the sub into the sub out of the receiver. as for DSP i believe it is just used to add or subtract certain aspect of the sound...I dont see how DSP will make the sub work.
  • 12-17-2003, 02:14 PM
    jackz4000
    Sub & dsp
    Yes, Stereo for music CD's. Was not going to use the DD 5.1 for now. Simply was for stereo music set-up. A & B speakers and subwoofer. No surrounds and no center channel hook up for now. Was not planning to use DSP for anything. I just like clean music. A bypass switch bypasses all processing. I read somewhere yesterday about a guy complaining that his new Pioneer would not output a signal (LFE) unless he was in the DSP or DD or DTS mode. That the signal would "defeat". That confused me, and I do not possess a huge knowledge of HT...still learning. So I emailed Pioneer tech support and below is the answer I just received:

    Pioneer: "When playing back music or CD please use DSP modes. The DSP will make up the subwoofer channel from just 2 channels of audio. These DSP modes will create subwoofer sound in DSP modes."

    Now, I would have thought there would always be subwoofer frequencies being output via the subwoofer out as long as the music was creating frequencies below 100 or 150Hz. I don't know why DSP has to "create" the subwoofer sound??? I would think the low frequencies would be there to output the signal?

    I'm confused about this. I would like to use the subwoofer. Any help appreciated. Cheers, jack
  • 12-17-2003, 02:21 PM
    markw
    Sad to say, but there isn't ANY standard on how these new-fangled home theatre receiver thingies handle bass. Bass management is one area where standardazation could be useful but, as of now, it ain't happenin'. The fact that ALL these receivers derive the subwoofer signal in the digital domain adds to the confusion. You gotta RTFM to see what it can and cannot do and experiment a bit.

    For instance, my Denon 2802 channels bass 100% correctly when using a digital mode, such as DPL2, NEO:6 or 5/6 Channel Stereo. On plain vanilla stereo, the bass is overpowering.

    Fortunately, I can set the bass level for each mode and my work-around is to have my sub set to -12 on stereo and 0 on everything else. Thankfully, the receiver has the smarts to remember each modes settings individually and I don't have to kerfutz with it each time I change modes.

    If I'm feelin' froggy and want a little more bass, like say, Bach on an organ, I can "trim" the sub on the fly. Again, RTFM. YMMV.

    Oh, BTW, my speakers are set to "large" so they all get the full range.

    But, for simplicity's sake, Willow has a good idea. Run the sub on the speaker outputs and set the speakers to "large" That way, they will get everything all the time but even then you may find you may need to tweak it a little when switching modes. HT sounds best with a little more sub than music does.

    Hang in there, RTFM and play around. Hopefully you will arrive at a happy medium.
  • 12-17-2003, 02:30 PM
    Willow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jackz4000
    Yes, Stereo for music CD's. Was not going to use the DD 5.1 for now. Simply was for stereo music set-up. A & B speakers and subwoofer. No surrounds and no center channel hook up for now. Was not planning to use DSP for anything. I just like clean music. A bypass switch bypasses all processing. I read somewhere yesterday about a guy complaining that his new Pioneer would not output a signal (LFE) unless he was in the DSP or DD or DTS mode. That the signal would "defeat". That confused me, and I do not possess a huge knowledge of HT...still learning. So I emailed Pioneer tech support and below is the answer I just received:

    Pioneer: "When playing back music or CD please use DSP modes. The DSP will make up the subwoofer channel from just 2 channels of audio. These DSP modes will create subwoofer sound in DSP modes."

    Now, I would have thought there would always be subwoofer frequencies being output via the subwoofer out as long as the music was creating frequencies below 100 or 150Hz. I don't know why DSP has to "create" the subwoofer sound??? I would think the low frequencies would be there to output the signal?

    I'm confused about this. I would like to use the subwoofer. Any help appreciated. Cheers, jack


    Well I suggest reading this info also you can request the booklet sent to you as I did and it helps.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/home/faqad/...cle=bassmanage

    they offer different ways and explanations for the hookups....but if you use stereo mode and the sub doesnt go on...you should try hooking up the speakers the way if you had a sat/sub system
  • 12-17-2003, 04:02 PM
    jackz4000
    Thanks Willow & Mark
    I'm not totally clear on all this, but less confused than I was a couple hours ago. Thanks. Nice link for Polks HT handbook. Methinks there are some DigitalDemons lurking just behind the subwoofer/Lfe out jack. Which is why Pioneer directed me to using DSP for CD's. By using the amp/speaker/sub speaker connections I think I can avoid them controlling the sub frequencies output. That digital circuit will be bypassed. I think? The sub cable would be the easiest route, since the amp/speaker/sub method involves more time and wire.

    So, I am prepared to experiment and give more time to the set-up. More wires to run through the walls. And then for some days of tweaking. I'll do the hook-up in a few weeks and I'll post the results. Cheerio, Jack
  • 12-17-2003, 04:04 PM
    joel2762
    That's odd.
    On my Sony, You press A.DEC for Auto Decode. If it's in 2-Channel, It creates a sub channel. If it's in DD, or DTS what have you, it goes to that mode...Or, On 2-Channel music, if you put it on NORM SURR mode. Which is Normal Surround. It uses every speaker you have with Pro-Logic. If you only have 2 mains and sub, it does the same as A.DEC. But say if you have another 2 rears, it creates mixes for those using Pro Logic, etc. In NORM surround mode the track is played back in surround sound the way it was recorded, but if only in two channel, it is split up unless there is a Dolby Mix there to keep it on mono mode, etc. That pioneer thing is very strange. Shouldn't be that way!
  • 12-17-2003, 05:05 PM
    Woochifer
    I would guess that you need to set your speakers to "small" before anything gets sent to the subwoofer with the DSP switched off. With a two-channel source and no LFE channel, the full-range signal is sent directly to the speakers with nothing bypassed through the subwoofer output. Even in a 5.1 setup, if all of your speakers are set to "large" then only the LFE gets sent to the subwoofer, with no low frequency redirecting from any of the other five channels. CDs have no LFE channel, and in order to decode 5.1, the DSP needs to be active. So, Pioneer was correct in that sense, even if it sounds like they didn't understand your question.

    Alternately, you can just use the high pass crossover on your subwoofer (run the speaker output into the subwoofer first, and then run another set of cables out from the subwoofer to the speakers) and not even bother with the receiver's bass management if your system only uses two speakers right now.
  • 12-17-2003, 05:07 PM
    This Guy
    not sure...
    if this has been asked yet, but do you have your main speakers set as large while connecting your sub via subwoofer out? Cause on my Marantz, when I have my front speakers set as large and i run it in stereo, it doesn't send a signal to the sub. When they're set as small all the information 100 hz and below is sent to the sub. If this doesn't work it looks like you gotta do what willow said, which has got to suck. good luck

    -Joey
  • 12-18-2003, 08:28 AM
    jackz4000
    Thanks Woodchifer, Joel & This Guy
    I can see there were some things I never took into account. I like to have a good idea of what I am doing before I start a little project....like being organized and knowing what problems I may encounter. Thanks for the help. BTW: the Polk link on Bass Management and The Case Against Using Sub Out was a very good read. Using amp/speaker/sub seems the best route, I did not realize there were digital conflicts. I had thought the sub issue would be straightforward---which is not quite the case. Thanks for the education, still more to learn.

    I recently got the receiver on a whim for $140. It had good clean, powerful specs and was a well built unit. Back in 96 it was the king of the Pioneer line (2K) having both ac-3 laserdisc and digital inputs. Originally, I got it as a back-up unit in case any other set-up broke and I needed a fill in. Its not as new as your Sony Joel, so it does not have the feature your Sony has.

    Anyway, I'll set it all up in a few weeks and now I am prepared for alot of experimenting, thanks for the help, I have a much better understanding than yesterday, Cheers, Jack
  • 12-18-2003, 08:41 AM
    Willow
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jackz4000
    I can see there were some things I never took into account. I like to have a good idea of what I am doing before I start a little project....like being organized and knowing what problems I may encounter. Thanks for the help. BTW: the Polk link on Bass Management and The Case Against Using Sub Out was a very good read. Using amp/speaker/sub seems the best route, I did not realize there were digital conflicts. I had thought the sub issue would be straightforward---which is not quite the case. Thanks for the education, still more to learn.

    I recently got the receiver on a whim for $140. It had good clean, powerful specs and was a well built unit. Back in 96 it was the king of the Pioneer line (2K) having both ac-3 laserdisc and digital inputs. Originally, I got it as a back-up unit in case any other set-up broke and I needed a fill in. Its not as new as your Sony Joel, so it does not have the feature your Sony has.

    Anyway, I'll set it all up in a few weeks and now I am prepared for alot of experimenting, thanks for the help, I have a much better understanding than yesterday, Cheers, Jack

    If you order the booklet , some peeps have mentioned it never arrived but I received mine within 2 weeks of ordering it. It has helped me out quite a bit it can be very confusing...I used it as a reference just last night with some details provided on this forum...
  • 02-15-2004, 04:49 AM
    joel2762
    I got my Polk Book.....
    Last week...I ordered it at least four months ago but it did come! Someone else I know had one ordered and it came within 3 days of mine, so I guess they wait to send them all out to one area at a time.
  • 02-16-2004, 05:42 PM
    jackz4000
    I got mine
    received it 3 weeks after ordering it.
  • 02-20-2004, 11:31 PM
    jamison
    Front Preamp out jacks?
    does your receiver have front preamp out jacks? you might want to connect the sub to the front preamp out jacks. your sub would get a signal no matter what setting you used.
  • 02-21-2004, 09:06 AM
    brian_tr
    How do you use the front preamp out? My sub only has one preamp in. Do you splice them together?
  • 02-21-2004, 09:09 AM
    brian_tr
    Great Link. This might fix the sub hum problem I have been having. I also noticed on my Yamaha 1400 that it does not output to the sub in some of the listening modes. That will fix that also.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Willow
    Well I suggest reading this info also you can request the booklet sent to you as I did and it helps.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/home/faqad/...cle=bassmanage

    they offer different ways and explanations for the hookups....but if you use stereo mode and the sub doesnt go on...you should try hooking up the speakers the way if you had a sat/sub system

  • 04-24-2004, 10:19 AM
    Raymond
    Sub LFE Bass Frequencies
    I have the Pioneer VSX-41 Elite with Athena S.5 (Bookshelf Fronts) Athena C.5 (Center) and a Klipsch RW-8 sub, Bose surrounds.

    When I set the Front speakers to Large, lots of bass does not make it to the sub. I have the option of setting the sub to PLS (or plus) to nevertheless send frequencies from 100 to 200 Hz to the sub.

    Is this option/feature available on your Pioneer receiver?

    Ray