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  1. #1
    AR Member JeffKnob's Avatar
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    HDTV to 1080P or not to 1080P

    I am looking into an HDTV. I am looking at a 50" Samsung 1080P set for $2565, a 50" Samsung 720P set for $1805, or maybe a 56" Samsung 720P set for $2375.

    I have been reading that 1080P cannot be utilized unless the TV has HDMI 1.3 which isn't released. The specs say it is supported though. I can afford to do the 1080P set but is there a point to spending the extra money?

    Any opinions on these?
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  2. #2
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Controlling for every other quality, a true 1080p input has value if the set is big enough for someone to appreciate it from a typical viewing distance. After a point, 1080p will not look much different from 1080i or 720p--in terms of sheer resolution, that is. Any progressive 1080 signal, however, that's actually constructed from solid 2:3 or video processing might have that ineffable snap to it that some might find worth a little extra cash. But that kind of processing is more likely to derive from an external component than the set itself.

    I'm not keeping up with which lines appeared when, but apparently Samsung is poised to offer 1080p that does not derive from wobulation, or "smooth picture" technology. Personally, I find that a good development. It suggests a realization that wobulation can't quite do what the full complement of pixels can. LCoS and LCD do not wobulate to achieve 1080p.

    At any rate, this new ability for TVs to accept 1080p signals seems to be directly correlated to Blu-Ray's impending arrival, which will be capable of 1080p through HDMI (component will be limited to 1080i). Samsung is going to be first on the market with a Blu-Ray player. If you want one fool's opinion, if you can afford 1080p, why not get it? You'll have that extra bit of versatility. But here's where I get subjective: If I'm going to get 1080p capability on a TV, I'd rather not have one that wobulates. Lots of people may disagree with me, because a wobulating DLP can look pretty damn good. But I want all of the horizontal pixels, not half of them, if I can swing it. The other caveat concerns how good a particular 1080p set performs in other respects. Achieving a resolution of 1080p is but one small step for mankind. Just as important, if not more important, is how well a display handles other tasks that contribute significantly to what you see on screen.

  3. #3
    AR Member JeffKnob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edtyct
    Controlling for every other quality, a true 1080p input has value if the set is big enough for someone to appreciate it from a typical viewing distance. After a point, 1080p will not look much different from 1080i or 720p--in terms of sheer resolution, that is. Any progressive 1080 signal, however, that's actually constructed from solid 2:3 or video processing might have that ineffable snap to it that some might find worth a little extra cash. But that kind of processing is more likely to derive from an external component than the set itself.

    I'm not keeping up with which lines appeared when, but apparently Samsung is poised to offer 1080p that does not derive from wobulation, or "smooth picture" technology. Personally, I find that a good development. It suggests a realization that wobulation can't quite do what the full complement of pixels can. LCoS and LCD do not wobulate to achieve 1080p.

    At any rate, this new ability for TVs to accept 1080p signals seems to be directly correlated to Blu-Ray's impending arrival, which will be capable of 1080p through HDMI (component will be limited to 1080i). Samsung is going to be first on the market with a Blu-Ray player. If you want one fool's opinion, if you can afford 1080p, why not get it? You'll have that extra bit of versatility. But here's where I get subjective: If I'm going to get 1080p capability on a TV, I'd rather not have one that wobulates. Lots of people may disagree with me, because a wobulating DLP can look pretty damn good. But I want all of the horizontal pixels, not half of them, if I can swing it. The other caveat concerns how good a particular 1080p set performs in other respects. Achieving a resolution of 1080p is but one small step for mankind. Just as important, if not more important, is how well a display handles other tasks that contribute significantly to what you see on screen.
    Thanks for the advise. I actually think that the samsung set has a true resolution of 1920x1080 and doesn't need to wobulate. It is a brand new model with a brand new chip from TI. Correct me if I am wrong. I am still trying to research if this is completely correct.

    Oh yeah, the model I am looking at is HL-S5087W.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    Jeff,

    I think that the 50" version still wobulates. You may have to go to 61" or 71" for a nonwobulating chip. Wobulation may not be that big a deal, if you like the set. Also, there is something to be said for smoothpicture's ability to reduce the gap between pixels.

  5. #5
    AR Regular evil__betty's Avatar
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    Currently all of the DLP sets use TI's wobulation chip - which doesn't look that bad. However, it doesn't look that much better (if any) compared to a 720p set. Personally, I would save the $$$ on the set and invest the extra cash into an audio system (upgrade if you alrerady have one, or start one from scratch - the benifits will be far greater than a set that cannot produce/accept a 1080p signal [not that you would see a difference between 1080i or 1080p - why won't people believe this???]). The only 1080p set that I have seen that easily outperforms a 720p set is Sony's SXRD. If you're going to blow the whole load on a tv, do it right the first time and get your money's worth. But thats just my opinion.

  6. #6
    AR Member JeffKnob's Avatar
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    Regardless of what the TV can or cannot do, the picture looked just as good as the Sony SXRD, maybe better. Of course it was much better than any of the other sets they had there. I am sure there are plenty of people here that haven't seen this new line that Samsung has released. Circuit City just loaded it on their website and I got the first one my local store received. One thing I noticed first was the contrast ratio. 10,000:1 is pretty amazing.

    What's most important is that I am very happy with it.
    Last edited by JeffKnob; 04-29-2006 at 10:47 AM.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Onkyo TX-SR606
    PS3 Bluray
    Denon DVD-1920
    Panasonic TH-50PZ80U Plasma
    HR21 HD DVR
    Paradigm Esprit (front), Focus (rear), CC270 (center)

    2 - 15" Dayton HF subwoofers
    Two Soundstream M1 monoblock amps for the subwoofer

  7. #7
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil__betty
    Currently all of the DLP sets use TI's wobulation chip
    I think that you are correct, as far as I know TI has not released a 1080p chip and I don't know of any other source.
    Quote Originally Posted by evil__betty
    [not that you would see a difference between 1080i or 1080p - why won't people believe this???]
    In a sense this is true, I think all the signals are stored in a 1080 x 1920 RAM array. The difference is that each field is updated twice as often for 1080p as it is for 1080i, so during a pan or zoom shot there will be less jump or flicker. Once the picture is stable they will be effectively indistinguisable from each other. Of course all this assumes a source (not sattelite or cable) that can process that many bits per second, maybe the HiDef DVD when they get it right. With most current sources the MPEG pixellation overshadows digital picture artifacts.

    Why can't more people see this unbelievably irritating flicker? When I bought my first satellite reciever about 9 years ago the picture was spectacular, its been going downhill ever since. As the satellite company squeezes ever more channels and services onto the same digital data stream, the amount of information for each individual channel decreases (ps. the cost has not). They long since passed the pixellation perception threshold for any decent TV, maybe their signals look OK to them on a 19" 1960's black and white Emerson TV.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular edtyct's Avatar
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    I gotta be careful here. I think that the wobulating sets have been out there long enough to win the hearts of a lot of consumers. But the question, at least to me, is whether resolution created by wobulation is as "sharp" as resolution that derives from the full complement of rated pixels. Although the eye certainly can't see the alternating, or wobulating, illumination of the pixel arrays, wobulation may not be able to resolve all of the detail available, possibly because of the nonstandard diamond-shaped pixels, making the picture a little soft, notwithstanding the amelioration of SDE for some people. We may not have enough experience with, say, 1080p in various contexts to fully appreciate the ability of this technology to show it. So far as nonwobulating 1080p DLP chips are concerned, I heard a while back that TI had one, but if so, I guess it's not out yet. I've also heard a rumor that NuVision has a prototype nonwobulating DLP set, but I can't substantiate it. However, since wobulation was the imaginative response to limitations in the number of mirrors squeezable onto a DLP chip, as well as a cost-cutting strategy, it doesn't seem far-fetched that nonwobulating 1080p would appear eventually on DLP RPTVs.

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