Pre-pro died again - need to simplify things

[nightflier]

OK, this will be the second time I'm sending my Outlaw Model 970 back for service. This time it's not the opamps, but the volume has stopped working - no volume control at all. And this time my unit is also out of warranty so that's a whole other battle I'm going to have to fight.

As a temporary substitute I'm using two stereo preamps to drive fronts & rears and an outboard volume control to attenuate the center channel, which is obviously a pita. Not to mention that there is just bare-bones bass management in my player. So that brings me back to a thread I had posted here some time back with the same idea: all I really need is a 5.1 preamp. Right now, I only have one video source and it goes straight to the TV, but if I need more, then I can just get an HDMI switcher. My thoughts are that adding video processing, digital conversion, and all the other stuff to a preamp probably doesn't help the sound.

Well it turns out there is such a component that even has bass management: the Parasound P7. So I was thinking of getting that to manage the sound, a decent-quality BR player (The Panasonic sounds like the right fit) to do all the video and audio processing and call it a day. Yes, I know that the P7 costs $2K, but shouldn't it pretty much do what I want? It even has two 7.1 analog inputs.

Am I overlooking something I might miss if I go this route?

Also, has anyone heard the Parasound? Is it worth the expense?

[elapsed]

Sorry to hear about the Outlaw..

Just to throw in another option in this price category, you may want to consider the Marantz AV8003 pre/pro, which features bass management, 7.1 analogue inputs, balanced pre-outs.

cheers,
elapsed

[audio amateur]

As a temporary substitute I'm using two stereo preamps to drive fronts & rears and an outboard volume control to attenuate the center channel,

Thank God for temporary solutions.. When I'm all settled I promise myself to have a double of this kind of stuff, just in case. As I'm a student, it's all bare-bone right now. Actually, my current 'temporary' solution is a 20 year old Rotel RA-810a, which is serving me very well Got it for 30 quid (40 bucks) shipped Can't beat that...

Sad to hear the Outlaw is having difficulties again. Perhaps you can negotiate having it done for free?

[dean_martin]

Hey, NF. I'm not up to date on multi-ch preamps, but I remember reading about the older analog multi-ch preamp models listed below in Kalman Rubinson's Music in the Round column in Stereophile. Look through his archives on Stereophile's website.
Used:
Sony TA-P9000es
Audio Refinement Pre5
McCormack Map-1
Bel Canto Pre6

[Rich-n-Texas]

You just don't listen to me DO YOU???

[blackraven]

I can only comment on the quality of Parasound. I own the Parasound Halo A21 amp and its extremely well made.

Here's a review on the P7

http://www.hometheaterreview.com/equ...ewed001917.php

[RoadRunner6]

The Emotiva UMC-1 will be out soon (sometime in June if you can wait) at $699 with 5 year warranty.

http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm

[BadAssJazz]

With the Onkyo PR-SC886 and Integra 9.9 out, the prices for the SC885 have dropped to about $800, give or take. Not the best looking processors in the world, but definitely up to snuff in almost every other regard. Worth a try?

[Auricauricle]

Geeze, Richie, are your nuts still in that vise?

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=Auricauricle]Geeze, Richie, are your nuts still in that vise?

Its spelled V-A-S-E.

[Mr Peabody]

NF, I still have my Primare 31.7 for about half what you are looking to spend on the P7. The sound quality is amazing. The bass management is lacking for a $4k processor but it does have the 7.1 input and if the management is in the BR player you should be alright. Sound quality wise the 31.7 is still better than the AV8003 but for getting modern features the AV8003 is a good bang for the buck and sounds better than a processor should with all these features for $2.5k, probably can be found lower than retail. The 31.7 is easily on par with Krell's entry level processors or Arcam, it's a true high end performer. It has some XLR connections but I'd have to double check to see what the extent was.

[nightflier]

Thanks for the input. Outlaw techs say that if I leave the pre-pro unplugged for 24 hours and then do a system reset that it might work again. I'll give it a try, but this really isn't comforting about Outlaw (makes me wonder if I really want to wait for their next pre/pro).

For the processors, I didn't know there were other options. So for an audition list of pre/pros that are not hampered by video processing, I have:

Sony TA-P9000es (should be inexpensively priced)
Audio Refinement Pre5 (not crazy about that one)
McCormack Map-1 (aha!)
Bel Canto Pre6 (another one I never knew about)
Emotiva UMC-1 (forgot about Emotiva)
Primare 31.7 (beautiful to look at)
Parasound P7 (has some real strong points)

Getting my hands on some of those for an audition will probably take some leg work. I have a friend who's a Bel Canto nut (that's all he has and he has three systems), so I'll ask him about that one. I'm not too crazy about Audio Refinement: the CD Complete is very good, but the rest of the Complete set was lackluster. Sony's probably easy enough to find on eBay, so I'll hunt & peck there. The McCormack is definitely going on my short list, and I can check out the Parasound gear at Digital Ear, here in Tustin. I need to go there to have my DVD player updated, so that sounds like something for this weekend.

Tex, what are you takin' about?

Mr. P., I haven't forgotten about that Primare, but it has video processing as well, right?

Blackraven, I have to say that one of the attractions to the Parasound gear is the Halo design. I almost bought a P3/A? combo when Good Guys was having their fire sale, but it was still (at the time) well above my budget. I'm now really partial to digital-switching amps because of the heat and efficiency factor, and when done right, they do sound very good. So how warm does that A21 get when you push it?

Speaking of heat, one of the nice things about the Outlaw 970 is that it does manage to stay relatively cool for a processor, especially compared to my past experience with receivers from the major brands. Actually this was my reason for going with separates, so that I could use cool-running class-d amps, instead. For those who use the Onkyo/Integra pre/pros, do they get very hot? How about the Emotivas, do they become little space warmers, too? After all, without amps, they shouldn't, right?

On having unfettered 7.1 inputs, one of the things that's really intriguing to me is having two of these. So far the only pre/pro or preamp that has this that I've found is the Parasound (if any of the above also do, let me know). I really would like to do a straight A/B comparison between my different SACD sources, something I've never been able to do.

[pixelthis]

Sorry to hear about your outlaw troubles, but at least its a warning to others,
a "heads up" so to speak.
Maybe thats why their customer service is so good...
it has to be.
Even if a reset works its still a troubling matter.

[O'Shag]

Hi NightFlier - I'm familiar with the Halo gear as a few friends HT systems I listen to quite regularly have the C1/A51. To be honest, the Anthem Statement D2 is on a different level. If you can somehow afford the Statement, it will be the last pre/processor you will ever need. I closely audtioned all the systems when buying three years ago. I went for the Yamaha RX-Z9. It was clearly superior to the Denon and Pioneer, and close to the equal to the Halo gear but less money. But I've since become familiar with the Anthem stuff (Sonic Frontiers) and other than the Theta Casblanca, Levinson No 40, or high end Lexicon, there's nothing out there to touch the Statement D2 especially given the price on the used market - oh yes, its HDMI ready also.

[Mr Peabody]

Hey Shaggy! good to see you. I haven't heard the D2 yet but it's here in town and I hear great things about it.

NF, the 31.7 does have video paths/switching, HD quality but up to component only, no actual video processing. It does, of course, have the HT audio processing. Conrad Johnson has the MET1 which is a 5 channel preamp with no video or HT processing, along the lines of the MAP but the CJ is tube and I'm sure quite a different sonic signature. Are you looking for an amp as well? The Linn 5125 used to run about $1600 to $1800.00 used. If this will be your music system a couple points of criticism of the 5125, at least with the preamps I've used, I find the very low frequencies could be more detailed. The very low has a sound sort of like my Velodyne. I wouldn't use the Velodyne for music but it can shake my house on a soundtrack. The 5125 don't have that kind of bass but it's not 750 watts either. The 5125 has a great mid with excellent clarity, the highs are good as long as the source is good. A not so good source and I feel the 5125 can get a bit bright, although I've never gotten fatigued by it. I love this amp for HT and wouldn't part with it. It's an 11 lb. work horse that never even seems to feel warm nor have I ever wanted for power. I have it behind a door in a lower cabinet. Once hooked up, I forgot about it.

[Mr Peabody]

Hey Shaggy! good to see you. I haven't heard the D2 yet but it's here in town and I hear great things about it.

NF, the 31.7 does have video paths/switching, HD quality but up to component only, no actual video processing. It does, of course, have the HT audio processing. Conrad Johnson has the MET1 which is a 5 channel preamp with no video or HT processing, along the lines of the MAP but the CJ is tube and I'm sure quite a different sonic signature. Are you looking for an amp as well? The Linn 5125 used to run about $1600 to $1800.00 used. If this will be your music system a couple points of criticism of the 5125, at least with the preamps I've used, I find the very low frequencies could be more detailed. The very low has a sound sort of like my Velodyne. I wouldn't use the Velodyne for music but it can shake my house on a soundtrack. The 5125 don't have that kind of bass but it's not 750 watts either. The 5125 has a great mid with excellent clarity, the highs are good as long as the source is good. A not so good source and I feel the 5125 can get a bit bright, although I've never gotten fatigued by it. I love this amp for HT and wouldn't part with it. It's an 11 lb. work horse that never even seems to feel warm nor have I ever wanted for power. I have it behind a door in a lower cabinet. Once hooked up, I forgot about it.

[nightflier]

Well the Outlaw pre/pro is back in working order. Apparently it really did need to be unplugged for 24 hours in addition to a full system reset. Something about the logic memory getting confused. Wait a minute, this isn't running Windows, is it?

Back to the pre/pro alternative. I'm going to be on the lookout for some of the units mentioned above. If I'm going to do this, I really want to do it w/o video, so that reduces the options quite a bit. I've been reading some mixed reviews on the P7, but it still looks like my best option. I'll see what lands on audiogon and ebay and possibly at the local stores. I just got an email that AA has a refurbed one for $1600-ish, so that's also an option.

I did get a hold of an A23 and an A52, so I'll be putting them through their paces in the next week or two. I'll see how hot these guys get. I wish I could have had access to the A51, since that fits my power-requirement a little better, but we'll see how these do for now. I wouldn't at all mind an all-Parasound setup because it does look pretty nice - not too many component manufacturers put much effort into design these days so it's nice someone still does.

[Mr Peabody]

What? You don't want one of these: http://spearitsound.com/cj/conrad_johnson_met1.asp

[O'Shag]

Thanks Mr Peabody - hope your doing well mate. Yes - I really like that Statement D2 a heck-uva-lot. It really is up there with the better seperates (two-channel included). It'll be the next HT processor/amp I get, and probably the last one I will have as I can't imagine much better.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks for the input. Outlaw techs say that if I leave the pre-pro unplugged for 24 hours and then do a system reset that it might work again. I'll give it a try, but this really isn't comforting about Outlaw (makes me wonder if I really want to wait for their next pre/pro).

For the processors, I didn't know there were other options. So for an audition list of pre/pros that are not hampered by video processing, I have:

Sony TA-P9000es (should be inexpensively priced)
Audio Refinement Pre5 (not crazy about that one)
McCormack Map-1 (aha!)
Bel Canto Pre6 (another one I never knew about)
Emotiva UMC-1 (forgot about Emotiva)
Primare 31.7 (beautiful to look at)
Parasound P7 (has some real strong points)

Getting my hands on some of those for an audition will probably take some leg work. I have a friend who's a Bel Canto nut (that's all he has and he has three systems), so I'll ask him about that one. I'm not too crazy about Audio Refinement: the CD Complete is very good, but the rest of the Complete set was lackluster. Sony's probably easy enough to find on eBay, so I'll hunt & peck there. The McCormack is definitely going on my short list, and I can check out the Parasound gear at Digital Ear, here in Tustin. I need to go there to have my DVD player updated, so that sounds like something for this weekend.

Tex, what are you takin' about?

Mr. P., I haven't forgotten about that Primare, but it has video processing as well, right?

Blackraven, I have to say that one of the attractions to the Parasound gear is the Halo design. I almost bought a P3/A? combo when Good Guys was having their fire sale, but it was still (at the time) well above my budget. I'm now really partial to digital-switching amps because of the heat and efficiency factor, and when done right, they do sound very good. So how warm does that A21 get when you push it?

Speaking of heat, one of the nice things about the Outlaw 970 is that it does manage to stay relatively cool for a processor, especially compared to my past experience with receivers from the major brands. Actually this was my reason for going with separates, so that I could use cool-running class-d amps, instead. For those who use the Onkyo/Integra pre/pros, do they get very hot? How about the Emotivas, do they become little space warmers, too? After all, without amps, they shouldn't, right?

On having unfettered 7.1 inputs, one of the things that's really intriguing to me is having two of these. So far the only pre/pro or preamp that has this that I've found is the Parasound (if any of the above also do, let me know). I really would like to do a straight A/B comparison between my different SACD sources, something I've never been able to do.

That's weird. First time I read this post I didn't see that comment...

Irregardless... E-MO-TIV-A is your friend.

BUT...

If I had your money, Parasound Halo anything would be my hands-down choice.

[RoadRunner6]

For any out there that might be interested, I'm on the pre-order wait list for the upgrade to the Emotiva UMC-1, which is the model XMC-1 for $999. Here is what the XMC-1 has versus the UMC-1 at $699.

XMC-1 versus UMC-1

...Dual video zones, instead of a single video zone.
...Headphone output – front panel. UMC-1 has no headphone output.
...Balanced (XLR) line outputs. UMC-1 has unbalanced outputs.
...Analog Devices 24/192 DAC’s & ADC’s instead of CS42518.
...8 - HDMI inputs and 3 HDMI outputs. 2 main, 1 Zone 2. The UMC-1 has 5 in 1 out.
...1 - Precision phono input with MC/MM capability, UMC-1 has no phono input.
...1 - composite video input (RCA), the UMC-1 has 3.
...1 - S-video input (S-video mini DIN), the UMC-1 has 3.
...2 - component video outputs (RCA) main and Zone 2. UMC-1 has 1.
...1 - stereo XLR input. UMC-1 has unbalanced only.
...4 - assignable trigger outputs Movie/Music/Ampx2 (3.5mm mini). UMC-1 has 3.
...3 RU chassis. UMC-1 is 2RU?



XMC-1 Audio/Video Media Processor/Controller - preliminary feature set (updated 2/27/09)

...Twin Cirrus® 32 bit dual core DSP’s for uncompromised high resolution HD audio decoding
...Decoding support for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital True HD, Dolby PLIIx, DTS, DTSES, DTS HD, DTS Master Audio, DTS Neo 6, SPDIF, PCM 8 channel (note: some audio formats only supported via HDMI)
...Dual Genesis® Torino high performance video scaling engines with full Faroujda DCDi® processing for main zone and second audio/video zone. Enables simitaltanouus or independent selection of any audio/video source
...Full HDMI 1.3a support
...Front panel direct access control for inputs
...Absolute HDMI bypass “reference” mode – hardware enabled, supports advanced bit depths
...Independent dual zone capability for both analog and digital audio sources
...Automatic Emo-Q™ multi channel room correction and automatic loudspeaker setup. Calibrated measurement microphone included.
...Quadruple bass manager with independently selectable high and low pass frequencies from 40hz – 160hz
...Independently selectable HP/LP slope rates of 12 or 24 db/octave
...All legacy video inputs can be scaled and output over HDMI at up to 1080p in main and second zone
...HDMI sources can be format converted to component video up to 1080i in main and second zone
...Full color graphical OSD over live video, including HDMI in main and second zone.
...All inputs are assignable and feature input labeling, selectable decode modes, selectable triggers, etc.
...Independent graphic EQ and bass and treble controls
0.5dB level trims on all channels
...Headphone output – front panel
...Professional balanced (XLR) line outputs on main 7.1 channels with THAT Corp.™ OutSmarts® balanced line drivers for exceptionally high common mode rejection.
...Analog Devices 24/192 DAC’s
...Premium quality signal path and component selection for uncompromised audio/video performance
...High voltage, low impedance main single ended (RCA) analog outputs (7 VRMS)
...8 - HDMI inputs and 3 HDMI outputs. 2 main, 1 Zone 2
...1 - Precision phono input with MC/MM capability
...1 - composite video input (RCA)
...1 - S-video input (S-video mini DIN)
...3 - component video inputs (RCA)
...2 - component video outputs (RCA) main and Zone 2
...4 - stereo analog audio inputs (RCA)
...1 - stereo XLR input
...1 - 7.1 analog input set (RCA)
...4 - coaxial digital inputs, (RCA)
...4- optical digital inputs (Toslink)
...1- coax digital audio output (RCA)
...1- optical digital audio output (Toslink)
...1 - Stereo or 2 channel analog multi channel mix down output for fixed level monitoring (RCA)
...1- stereo analog variable and independent Zone 2 output (RCA)
...1 - stereo analog fixed level record output (RCA)
...High performance AM/FM tuner with 24 FM and 6 AM presets
...Full RS-232 control
...4 - assignable trigger outputs Movie/Music/Ampx2 (3.5mm mini)
...1- IR remote input (3.5mm mini)
...1 - IR output (3.5mm mini)
...1 - microphone input (3.5mm stereo mini)
...1- USB data input (for software upgrades only)
...3 RU chassis

RR6

[nightflier]

RR6,

The Emotiva sounds like it's got everything anyone could ever want for under a grand. If there is something wanting, I must have missed it. Add a new Oppo BR/universal player, a good amp and you're done. Bbbbut... It will also be one of the most complex pre/pros out there at that price point and it makes you wonder... with so much that can go wrong... Now I'm not trying to knock Emotiva, because if they can pull it off and come out with a reliable workhorse that's going to put everyone else to shame, then more power to them. It's just a very tall order for under a grand, even for a product hailing from China's less expensive shores.

Mr. P.,

Now you've got me thinking. If I was to completely dump my 2-channel gear, I could possibly swing that kind of extravagance. So the question then becomes: is it worthy of such a sacrifice - that is, will it sounds that good? Not to mention that it is one beautiful piece of hardware at an incredible price. Bbbbut... What if that Emotiva actually sounds comparable at 1/3 the price? I'm not saying that this would be likely, but that would certainly be a Ashton-Kutcher-magnitude Burn, with a capital "B".

There is one thing that scares me from such a paradigm shift and that is the fact that fancy pre/pros (as well as receivers) drop in price very quickly, kind of like the proverbial sports-car-right-off-the-lot. Although by no means is it fancy, but my Outlaw pre/pro cost me $700 new, and they are now blowing them out at $379. If you consider the free shipping, this is less than what it's been going for used! Now the fancier the pre/pro, the steeper that decline. Just looks at what last year's top of the line Marantz and NAD multichannel boxes are going for.

So spending upwards of 3 grand on a pre/pro is a bit of a risk. $1K from Emotiva is infinitely more economically savvy, but does it sound as savvy? That is the question. To be perfectly frank, I haven't heard a truly impressive surround sound setup in quite some time (and I include my own system in that as well). Now I haven't heard DTS-MA yet, but it's on my list of requirements, in addition to great SACD sound. And not to belabor the point, but SACD w/o surround is just not going to cut it for me.

[Mr Peabody]

You did notice the MET-1 has no video or audio processing? It did mention some type of matrix for stereo to 6-channel conversion. The Emotiva may be a value and compete with the likes of Marantz, maybe, but there's no way it will compare to the MET-1. Just as my modest PV14 walks all over the Marantz, or most other gear I've had, for music playback. It's just two different avenues but for the one you mentioned of having no video the MET-1 would be optimum as it's specifically designed for what you were talking about, a true analog multichannel preamp. If you want two systems then the Emotiva would certainly be worth a shot at $1k to handle the HT part of it. Actually, you've had a lot of preamps so I'd be interested in hearing your evaluation of the Emotiva.

Of course, one downside to the MET1, it goes against your green campaign. The MET would have more tubes than my preamp but the PV14 does not get hot, it stays cool. Now the MV60's are another story.

Another consideration of an analog preamp is you'd have to buy a good digital player that has excellent analog stage to reap the benefits of your set up. I mean the Oppo might be good for the money but you'd want to compare it at least to top Marantz, Cambridge or NAD players. The sound of the NAD Master Series SACD is something I'm not going to soon forget. It's hard to describe, it wasn't the most brilliant but something about the sound was very captivating. The MET has two sets of MC inputs so the Oppo could do Blu ray/DVD and it would be easy to compare the SACD capability as you entertained a dedicated music player.

[pixelthis]

RR6,

The Emotiva sounds like it's got everything anyone could ever want for under a grand. If there is something wanting, I must have missed it. Add a new Oppo BR/universal player, a good amp and you're done. Bbbbut... It will also be one of the most complex pre/pros out there at that price point and it makes you wonder... with so much that can go wrong... Now I'm not trying to knock Emotiva, because if they can pull it off and come out with a reliable workhorse that's going to put everyone else to shame, then more power to them. It's just a very tall order for under a grand, even for a product hailing from China's less expensive shores.

Mr. P.,

Now you've got me thinking. If I was to completely dump my 2-channel gear, I could possibly swing that kind of extravagance. So the question then becomes: is it worthy of such a sacrifice - that is, will it sounds that good? Not to mention that it is one beautiful piece of hardware at an incredible price. Bbbbut... What if that Emotiva actually sounds comparable at 1/3 the price? I'm not saying that this would be likely, but that would certainly be a Ashton-Kutcher-magnitude Burn, with a capital "B".

There is one thing that scares me from such a paradigm shift and that is the fact that fancy pre/pros (as well as receivers) drop in price very quickly, kind of like the proverbial sports-car-right-off-the-lot. Although by no means is it fancy, but my Outlaw pre/pro cost me $700 new, and they are now blowing them out at $379. If you consider the free shipping, this is less than what it's been going for used! Now the fancier the pre/pro, the steeper that decline. Just looks at what last year's top of the line Marantz and NAD multichannel boxes are going for.

So spending upwards of 3 grand on a pre/pro is a bit of a risk. $1K from Emotiva is infinitely more economically savvy, but does it sound as savvy? That is the question. To be perfectly frank, I haven't heard a truly impressive surround sound setup in quite some time (and I include my own system in that as well). Now I haven't heard DTS-MA yet, but it's on my list of requirements, in addition to great SACD sound. And not to belabor the point, but SACD w/o surround is just not going to cut it for me.

The Outlaw is so cheap because it got caught in a "perfect" storm right after it got built.
DVI switching and none of the new codecs(if that is the one of which I am thinking).
The formats are pretty much set right now, HDMI and a decent codec suite and you
should be pretty much future proof.
But you could get just about any receiver\prepro with multichannel line in and be okay, just get a player that decodes and has 7.1 out and you're set.

[nightflier]

So I've had some time to play with the Parasound A23 and an A52 and these are my impressions:

- A bit bright and forward sounding, especially the A23. Of course I'm used to much warmer sounding gear, so that may just be my own bias.

- The A23 is a little thin and underpowered? I was actually expecting the A52 to have more trouble there, but they have a different sound with the latter having just a tad more heft to it.

- These suckers run hot. After watching Star Wars III ROTS, albeit at very high volumes, I could hardly put my hand on it. Little space heaters are they methinks.

- A few nitpicks: XLR inputs don't have locking clips (a pain for heavy cables), 12 v triggers are finicky and have non-standard 2.5mm mono plugs (huh?), binding posts are plastic (my loaner's posts were actually quite worn from wrench-tightening), they're pretty but they scratch and get smudged up easily, the overall construction is a bit flimsy. One of the handles on the back of one was loose and I took the rather thin cover off. It was easily bendable, some of the inside soldering was a bit sloppy, and the back screws where not even in threaded holes.

Anyhow, here's my question on the amps: would a bigger, more powerful amp have less trouble and thus run cooler? I have an option to purchase an Odyssey 3-channel amp for a song. It's only 25 watts more but weighs quite a bit more so I have to think it's a different animal altogether. Or should I step it up to the Parasound A51?

Oh, I almost forgot, I got my hands on a Parasound P7 and it doesn't work! Well it does work, but there is cross-talk between the stereo RCA inputs. I can clearly hear the CD input when I have the aux (my phono/TT) selected, and likewise with the other inputs I tried - this does not, however, affect the XLR or multi-channel inputs. While this was certainly a huge disappointment, it also makes me re-think the value of the whole made-in-china Halo line from Parasound.

By the way, what causes this? Is this something easy to fix? The guy I am borrowing it from acknowledged the problem before he gave it to me, thank god, but that also means I might be able to get it for less. So do I stay clear of this one, or buy it for less and have it repaired?

Frankly, the whole Halo line is loosing some of its luster for me. I wonder what John Curl would think of all this. Maybe Mr P's CJ suggestion is a better option.