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  1. #1
    ryk
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    Pioneer 1015tx vs. Yamaha RXv 757

    How does the Pioneer 1015tx measure up against the YAMAHA RX V757???

    I had to return the Pioneer 1015. I have Paradigm 9se and they are 4 ohm speakers. Since the Pioneer only works with 6 ohm and above speakers, I returned it for the Yamaha. Is there any major difference between the YAMAHA 757 and Pioneer 1015tx other than the 20 watt difference and the THX?????

    The Pioneer sure sounded sweet...even though I only had it hook up for a couple of hours..It ran pretty hot due to the impedence. I did not want to loose another Receiver, and I sure as he** did not want to give up my Paradigm 9se's.

    I have not hook up the Yamaha yet. But from other's comments, I hear this is an excellent reciever.
    Was the Yamaha 757 a good trade off for the Pioneer 1015tx?

    Does the Yamaha play dvd-audio and SCAD????

    Should I have kept the 1015 and upgraded my Paradigms 9Se ???

  2. #2
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Uhh, tough call. They Pioneer has more power, but whether or not you'd take advantage of that extra power depends on your speakers, and how loud you play.
    I'm guessing the 757 has enough for you.

    I probably would have given the Pioneer a bit more time. Those Yamaha's aren't really made for 4 ohm loads either, and I doubt it'd be any better than the Pioneer in that regard.

    Yamaha is known for making durable receivers though, coming from H/K and Denon, my last 2 Yamaha's run surprisingly cool. No fans either. This shouldn't be overlooked, though most receivers today can take a lot of heat before running into trouble.

    The 757 offers a few different things, has plenty of power itself, and is a great sounding receiver for the money though. Either way you win.

  3. #3
    ryk
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    The Yamaha has a feature on it to lets you choose between 4 ohm and 8 ohm. The pioneer only works with speakers 6 ohms and above. :>)

    I called the Pioneer Tech Line (very helpful people by the way) and they told me NOT to use the receiver with 4 ohm speakers. That info plus the receiver running hot was my queue to retuen it.

    Kexodusc,Thank you for your knowlegeable insight.. it has been most helpful.

  4. #4
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    The yamaha does 4 ohm? Are you sure?
    It does have pre-pros though.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  5. #5
    ryk
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    ABSOLUTELY!!! YAMAHA does give you a choice between 4 and 8 ohm settings. It's a 2 button function on the Receiver itself...not through the remote. It looked pretty simple. I'm setting it up tonight.

    The guy at the Hi Fi Sales demoed it to me. They had one on display. He also told me that the Pioneer Elites let you choose between 4 and 8 ohms as well. Altough they did not show me how they worked...my budget doesn't run that high so getting a demo of the Elites would be moot.

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Okay, the Yammies can handle 4 ohms but only the front main speakers. I'm sure the Pioneer could handle some if you were cautious, but when a company holds the line like that, it tells me they don't have faith in the product outside it's published specs. Too bad about that, goes to show more power isn't everything. I'd have to see the amp schematics to know for sure why the Pioneer couldn't hack it, might just be heat dissipation. Oh well.

    I still think it's a great alternative for the majority of folk who have 8 ohm speakers.

  7. #7
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    The Yamaha uses current limiting

    Quote Originally Posted by ryk
    The Yamaha has a feature on it to lets you choose between 4 ohm and 8 ohm. The pioneer only works with speakers 6 ohms and above. :>)

    I called the Pioneer Tech Line (very helpful people by the way) and they told me NOT to use the receiver with 4 ohm speakers. That info plus the receiver running hot was my queue to retuen it.
    Although it WILL drive a 4 ohm speaker, do not expect it to produce anywhere near as much power as it would driving an 8 ohm load. Depending on how you listen you may drive the receiver into protection mode.

    Most speaker are rated for AVERAGE impedance. The Axiom M80ti's that I have now are easily driven by my receiver even though they are rated at 4 ohm. Still, I much PREFER to drive my speakers with seperate power amp.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
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  8. #8
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Wow, check out page 102 of the 757's manual. These specs imply that it's 2 ohm stable.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #9
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Although it WILL drive a 4 ohm speaker, do not expect it to produce anywhere near as much power as it would driving an 8 ohm load. Depending on how you listen you may drive the receiver into protection mode.

    Most speaker are rated for AVERAGE impedance. The Axiom M80ti's that I have now are easily driven by my receiver even though they are rated at 4 ohm. Still, I much PREFER to drive my speakers with seperate power amp.
    I think most sub $1000 A/V Receivers use current limiting, don't they? I'm wondering if as a cost containment measure, such limiting circuitry was just omitted from the Pioneer, it's an internal switch of some sort on those isn't it?

    Chances are for most people with 4 ohm speakers, a relatively large receiver should be able to handle at least a pair of 4 ohm speakers.

    Back in college, I can remember driving the bejeesus out of some old Cerwin Vega's with Sony and Technics receivers. You could fry eggs on them, but they worked.

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Wow, check out page 102 of the 757's manual. These specs imply that it's 2 ohm stable.
    Uh...no...not stable, just capable of delivering that power to 2 ohm loads. A 4 ohm speaker might have a the odd 2 ohm dip...for short periods of time, it should be able to handle 2 ohms though.

    I know a lot of good quality power amps that would have a hard time driving 2 ohms stable.

  11. #11
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Uh...no...not stable, just capable of delivering that power to 2 ohm loads. A 4 ohm speaker might have a the odd 2 ohm dip...for short periods of time, it should be able to handle 2 ohms though.

    I know a lot of good quality power amps that would have a hard time driving 2 ohms stable.
    Yeah, I see that my manual says the same thing. How dare they get my hopes up like that.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  12. #12
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    You remember that episode of The Simpsons where Homer induces a meltdown in the Mini-Van Nuclear Core simulator? Pretty sure these Yammies would experience something similar if you were to connect some 2 ohm speakers to them.

    Try connecting 2 pairs of 4 ohm speakers in parallel if you really want to know. At low volumes, it probably won't care much. Until it starts looking for all that juice and goes into shut-down mode (if you're lucky).

  13. #13
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Not usually

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    I think most sub $1000 A/V Receivers use current limiting, don't they? I'm wondering if as a cost containment measure, such limiting circuitry was just omitted from the Pioneer, it's an internal switch of some sort on those isn't it?

    Chances are for most people with 4 ohm speakers, a relatively large receiver should be able to handle at least a pair of 4 ohm speakers.

    Back in college, I can remember driving the bejeesus out of some old Cerwin Vega's with Sony and Technics receivers. You could fry eggs on them, but they worked.
    Pioneer uses overload protection and will give you all the power it's got before overload. With a low resistance speaker that can happen pretty quicky. Yamaha went a different route and uses current limiting. This can have the effect of limiting quite severly the rated output, depeding on the load. I remember seeing a few specs where the much more capable Yamaha 2500 was only putting out 35-40wpc into all channels driven. Even so, it never overloaded. With current limiting you can get an amp that will be stable into unity, of course at unity it's producing NO current though!
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  14. #14
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    You remember that episode of The Simpsons where Homer induces a meltdown in the Mini-Van Nuclear Core simulator? Pretty sure these Yammies would experience something similar if you were to connect some 2 ohm speakers to them.

    Will I need donuts to pull this off?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Pioneer uses overload protection and will give you all the power it's got before overload. With a low resistance speaker that can happen pretty quicky. Yamaha went a different route and uses current limiting. This can have the effect of limiting quite severly the rated output, depeding on the load. I remember seeing a few specs where the much more capable Yamaha 2500 was only putting out 35-40wpc into all channels driven. Even so, it never overloaded. With current limiting you can get an amp that will be stable into unity, of course at unity it's producing NO current though!
    That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
    I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
    It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

    It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

    By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

    I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.

  16. #16
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
    I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
    It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

    It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

    By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

    I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.
    Good to hear. Mine should be around the same then?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  17. #17
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Yes, but now try the same test with a varible load

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
    I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
    It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

    It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

    By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

    I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.
    Say one that dips to 3 ohms or so, like many "good" speakers. Then the limiting could get onerious, and you would get serious signal compression. The fact of the matter is that NO quality amps use current limiting, it's only used on receivers.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  18. #18
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Say one that dips to 3 ohms or so, like many "good" speakers. Then the limiting could get onerious, and you would get serious signal compression. The fact of the matter is that NO quality amps use current limiting, it's only used on receivers.
    3 ohms? Yikes, there's no reason for that these days, a lot of good 4 ohm speakers don't show the large dips anymore I don't think the low impedance is the only thing to worry about either, the rate of change of the swings is just as hard on an an amplifier.


    I think the key here is still to buy the right size amp for your application. I'd never buy an amp knowing I'd place a burden on it consistently of more than 25% of it's max rated power. Doesn't leave enough headroom, IMO. Especially with receivers. Amps are a bit different, most seem to underrate these days.

    I wuldn't feel to confident running 5 or 7 speakers rated at 4 ohms with most sub $1000 A/V receivers.

    Current limiting is kind of like those fuel governors cars use. Kind of annoying, but if you never push the receiver near it's danger limits, you shouldn't even know it's there. The last extra 1 dB or 2 dB really suck a lot of current. I think it's a decent approach. Full power available to any 2 channels simultaneously, and an aweful lot available to 3 or 4 at once...should be enough for most people. I suspect in all but the rarest case this is sufficient. If it's not, I don't draw much distinction between 62 and 71 watts.

    Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?

  19. #19
    ryk
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    Alrighty then!!!

    Does this mean I made the right choice returning the Pioneer.

    I really need to know if I made the right move here! If it is a matter of symentics, Then I'll go back and get the Pioneer. If your saying it's a wash, I'll stick with the Yamaha.

    This topic has generated a LOT of techo information for me and hopefully others, some of it is over my head, being a newbie to all this.
    I just need to know if I made the right choice.

  20. #20
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc

    Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?
    Don't quote me, but I think Denon does also.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  21. #21
    3db
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    Thats cool!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
    I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
    It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....

    It got to a point where increasing the volume didn't add any power....current limiting would probably do that. Didn't fry though. The poor 65 X 5 Pro-Logic Onkyo didn't make out as well...

    By contrast, my old Adcom GFA-535II would dish out a raw, sustained 79-84 watts before 0.5% distortion....and then the distortion would hit fast. But it could easily throw out peaks at over 110 watts with low distortion. Only rated for 60 watts though. Tough little guy.

    I think in the receiver's case, there's no practical need to deliver maximum power to all channels simultaneously. Well, there shouldn't be...if you really need all that, you should probably have a bigger amplifier than that thing anyway.
    Would love to join a club like that and attempt to drive amps into submission *chuckles* Would love to see how a NAD would handle it

  22. #22
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Oh the load was variable...but I don't think it would have dipped below 5 ohms or above 12 ohms, frequencies 100 to 10,000 Hz.

  23. #23
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    That actually covers...

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Oh the load was variable...but I don't think it would have dipped below 5 ohms or above 12 ohms, frequencies 100 to 10,000 Hz.
    About 90%+ of the speakers out there.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    That's cool, and I think explains something for me.
    I joined a local DIY audio club the Physics dept and electrical engineers at the local university have. (basically 4 profs and a few grad students) We stress tested my RX-V1400 up to 61 watts with all 7 channels driven, at less than 0.5% distortion (couldn't test the actual distortion, the program could only read 0.5% or higher).
    It'd go a lot higher with 5 channels driven (90 watts or so). And did the 110 in stereo it's rated for no problem. Woudln't go much higher though....
    Great info!

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Anyone else besides Yamaha using current limiting in their receivers?
    I think UL now requires an impedance switch for their certification listings (no idea if it's required for outboard amplifiers). Also, more and more receiver manufacturers are putting the impedance selector into the setup menu rather than on the back of the unit. So, just because you look at a demo receiver and don't see the switch does not mean that it's not there.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryk
    How does the Pioneer 1015tx measure up against the YAMAHA RX V757???

    I had to return the Pioneer 1015. I have Paradigm 9se and they are 4 ohm speakers. Since the Pioneer only works with 6 ohm and above speakers, I returned it for the Yamaha. Is there any major difference between the YAMAHA 757 and Pioneer 1015tx other than the 20 watt difference and the THX?????

    The Pioneer sure sounded sweet...even though I only had it hook up for a couple of hours..It ran pretty hot due to the impedence. I did not want to loose another Receiver, and I sure as he** did not want to give up my Paradigm 9se's.

    I have not hook up the Yamaha yet. But from other's comments, I hear this is an excellent reciever.
    Was the Yamaha 757 a good trade off for the Pioneer 1015tx?

    Does the Yamaha play dvd-audio and SCAD????

    Should I have kept the 1015 and upgraded my Paradigms 9Se ???
    The Pioneer should work with 4 ohm speakers, even if the specs don't indicate as such. The only question is how hard you can push them before the receiver goes into protection mode. The only difference between the two is that the Yamaha has been rated and tested for 4 ohm speakers. Even so, Yamaha does not recommend that you use more than one pair of 4 ohm speakers at a time. So, if you're looking to do a multichannel setup matched to those speakers (and the center and surround speakers are also 4 ohms), then you'll need to get an outboard amplifier with either receiver.

    Both receivers (and actually any receiver with a six-channel analog input) will play DVD-Audio and SACD. You just need a player capable of playing those discs, and three pairs of interconnects.

    The RX-V757 is a very well regarded receiver that has just about everything you'll need to manage your home theater setup for at least the next few years. Same thing could be said for the Pioneer.

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