Pioneer 1015tx vs. Yamaha RXv 757

[kexodusc]

Would love to join a club like that and attempt to drive amps into submission *chuckles* Would love to see how a NAD would handle it

Yeah, the "club" is great...Millions of bucks in high-tech equipment (some of it straight out of the original star trek series) that I would never ever be able to buy. (unfortunately I'm not allowed to use any of it myself, I have to watch others). FYI, I have a 23 year old NAD 3140 I will bring in next time. We are going to try to kill it. I bought this about 2 years ago for spare parts for another 3140 I have. It's got problems in the pre-amp stage somewhere, but works fine through the Phono input.

We didn't beat the crap out of the amps. Those guys kew what they were doing, and of course I watched them do it with their own, more expensive gear before letting them do it to mine next time.

I'll bet a lot of cheap receivers would perform a lot better than magazines and audio websites give them credit for in most "real-world" applications. The problems start when you buy a small, 65 watt X 5 Yamaha receiver to power a pair of 4 ohm speakers, and 3 surround speakers with dips below 5 ohms in lower mids, and then turn it up very loud. Especially if the speakers' sensitivities is only like 85 dB or something.

I built my parents a small, HTIB type system with 5 satellites. Just 1 driver and a small network for impedance compensation and a notch filter. The drivers are 8 ohm, but they are only 81 dB efficient with 1 watt. Yup, 81 dB. In their mid size room, with the old 80 watt X 5 Sony receiver they use (their 2nd system, I wouldn't do that to my mom and dad in their primary system) they have no problems driving the average volume above 80 dB with peaks over 90 dB. This pretty loud, louder than a lot of theaters I've been to. Not THX levels, I don't think, but enough to drown out the outside world for sure. The Sony "only" puts out 30 something watts with all channels driven.

1 speaker, 81 db, 8 ft distance. 1 watt = about 73 dB (assumes NO reinforcement from walls) At 10 watts per chanel the volume climbs to 83 dB in room. with 2 speakers that goes up to 85. Add in walls and you're over 87 watts easily, with 9-12 dB of headroom. At 30 watts X 5, you're still getting handy to 100 dB's. What those "all channels driven" specs don't tell you is that the instantaneous power (ie: real music power) that's available is higher than that.

The sound quality is very mediocre though, I don't like Sony receivers that much. My old RX-V795a makes those things sing. I don't subsribe to the idea that all HT receivers sound the same. These 2 do not.

I'll say one thing though, that sony has taken a lot of punishment over the years. Sony can build'em tough when they want to.

[kexodusc]

About 90%+ of the speakers out there.

Yeah, I guess it does...I've seen many go higher than 12 ohms, but that's not as hard on an amp I don't think.

This would kind of validate Pioneer's choice to not worry so much about 4 ohm speakers then. If 90% of the market doesn't care, why not make more powerful receivers for the 90% of the market that does....

Anyone know how these new digital receivers like the Panasonics make out with 4 ohm speakers?

[Geoffcin]

Yeah, I guess it does...I've seen many go higher than 12 ohms, but that's not as hard on an amp I don't think.

This would kind of validate Pioneer's choice to not worry so much about 4 ohm speakers then. If 90% of the market doesn't care, why not make more powerful receivers for the 90% of the market that does....

Anyone know how these new digital receivers like the Panasonics make out with 4 ohm speakers?

The 1015, while a great receiver, is one of Pioneer's "consumer grade" line. I'm sure it would drive his 4 ohm speakers, but most people with hard to drive speakers are already using a seperate power amp....I know that's a few of us!

[Geoffcin]

I built my parents a small, HTIB type system with 5 satellites. Just 1 driver and a small network for impedance compensation and a notch filter. The drivers are 8 ohm, but they are only 81 dB efficient with 1 watt. Yup, 81 dB. In their mid size room, with the old 80 watt X 5 Sony receiver they use (their 2nd system, I wouldn't do that to my mom and dad in their primary system) they have no problems driving the average volume above 80 dB with peaks over 90 dB. This pretty loud, louder than a lot of theaters I've been to. Not THX levels, I don't think, but enough to drown out the outside world for sure. The Sony "only" puts out 30 something watts with all channels driven.

The sound quality is very mediocre though, I don't like Sony receivers that much. My old RX-V795a makes those things sing. I don't subsribe to the idea that all HT receivers sound the same. These 2 do not.

The reson being that I've found that the lack of time/phase distortion that a single speaker has can sound pretty terrific, even though you give up full frequency ability. If you are hearing the difference in receivers then that tells me the speakers have some good resolution.

[kexodusc]

The reson being that I've found that the lack of time/phase distortion that a single speaker has can sound pretty terrific, even though you give up full frequency ability. If you are hearing the difference in receivers then that tells me the speakers have some good resolution.

Full-range drivers are tricky to use alone. I think Fostex is known for doing a ton of work in that area.

I was pretty amazed with John Krutke's execution of a single-driver speaker using the Hi-Vi Research aluminum midrange driver. His design was certainly an inspiration for mine. I had to use a different cabinet size, and went with a different driver, so baffle step compensation compensation, and my notch filter were completely different, but there's no question I borrowed alot from him.

I used a Hi-Vi B3N. It's an excellent $10 driver. You'll find it in a few of Swans 3-way designs, but I've seen it more in odd-ball 3rd party commercial designs. 3" drivers are the perfect size for single driver systems. Small enough for decent high end and midrange response, and still a bit of bass left. Mine run out of bass around 90 Hz or so very fast, but integrate with a sub quite easily.

I'm most impressed by the imaging and soundstaging abilities. They outperform my Axiom M3Ti's easily in that area, wider, deeper, cleaner separation of instruments. I think that's just physics of a 5.5 inch wide baffle. If there's one thing I've observed, smaller, narrower speakers image better, all things equal I think. .

The downside of most full-range drivers is the top end. Some have serious break up issues above 5000 Hz. The highs are a bit dull at times, I'm use to the Scan-speak tweeter tweeter in my towers ($90), or even the Peerless driver in Ed Frias' Ar.com design. ($25). Those are definitely brighter, with more air and detail, so it's hard to step back.. I really only notice it on cymbal heavy music, just seems the decay isn't as crisp as it should be. A $4 neo tweeter would do wonders for the design I think.

Good distortion plots in the Hi-Vi driver. Aluminum is good for low distortion. The midrange is very good. I'd say they have about as much resolution as my Axiom M3Ti's, which also use aluminum mids.

As a stand alone music speaker they aren't that great. A sub is needed, or a larger ported cabinet at the very least. With a sub I'm confident they'll outperform most small cube HTIB type speakers. I stop by the Athena Micra 6 display whenever I'm at a Best Buy/Future Shop. I think that's a fair comparison, though the Hi-VI isn't as bright sounding and is better for vocals. Some might prefer the recessed highs, I like my speakers bright. These remind me a lot of the older Energy Take 5 systems, but a bit smoother.

For $100 and a weekend of fun though, it was a fun project. Some people I know have used them in sealed boxes with no notch filter or baffle step compensation with decent results. I sold my parents Paradigm Cinema series HTIB system and replaced them with these, they're a bit better than the Paradigms. Thinking of building the v.2 with a cheap tweeter for the 10 kHz - 20 kHz range soon for my bedroom system.

The $100 DIY 8" Dayton subwoofer rounded off the system and was the real gem though. Their PDR-8 didn't even come close. DIY subs are probably the best value and the easiest to do.