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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoguy1979
Yes you are correct behringer amps are one of the best values in audio today. You can find people giving them away, because they are a pathetic attempt at an amplifier. Behringer is the pondscum of the pro-audio world. Hate to be rude but you should read a book about sound system design, or at least general accoustics. Look up the words "Lobeing" and "Combing" and see if they mean any thing to you.:confused5:
I don't know about these amps here but I do know a little about Behringer,I'm a musician and have played all brands of amps, there are alot of people out there that have no hands on knowledge that knock this brand because it isn't Marshall(which I think is the worst tube amp made) or it isn't Mesa,one of the best combo's i've played is a solid state behringer,it drove a 412 cab with ease and sounded great,you could get any tone out of it and clean channel was,well,pretty clean.For the price, they offer a pretty good amp.I'm sure these aren't Luxman or Tosh,or Parasound quality,but who knows,they might serve well.
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i'm sure it sounds wonderful, but i suggest you invest or build a nice equiqment rack/cabinet. This would free up space around your room, help organize the wiring/cables and move the distracting Pioneer from below your TV.
Other than organizing all the components, its looks like you have the system you want. Enjoy!
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^ditto all previous comments, and... since it is a drop ceiling (or appears to be one) couldn't you hide the wiring really easily? It is shame all the amps wouldn't fit in the rack - that would look tremendous.
Welcome to the Madness!
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Robert: You do have quite a bit of equipment in a small room. But you seem off to a good start.
So.......audiovideoguy....you're pretty good at kicking people in the cajones, especially for your first post. Maybe you could look up lobing. Might even learn how to spell it.
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All joking aside, the only thing that matters is that you enjoy your system. Like I said, I used to own those speakers and they are what they are. I was happy with them but did not realize what I was missing until I upgraded.
If you're interested in organizing/hiding your cables, this link may be useful.
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<>__<>
Quote:
Originally Posted by emorphien
:lol:
Well some people benefit from having bad hearing, but I don't get why they feel need to buy more of the garbage when it doesn't do them any good.
I love it. Tell me how you realy feel. <>__<>
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I'm a forum moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcott
Everyone has to start somewhere and if you boys would "holster your guns", maybe he will stick around long enough to actually learn something. But, if you keep at it, all he will do is leave the audio review forum with a bad taste in his mouth.
If you boys would show a little diplomacy, this site will grow and everybody wins.
My skin is thick. I can take it.
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I can't wait to get a new rack!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel_
i'm sure it sounds wonderful, but i suggest you invest or build a nice equiqment rack/cabinet. This would free up space around your room, help organize the wiring/cables and move the distracting Pioneer from below your TV.
Other than organizing all the components, its looks like you have the system you want. Enjoy!
I want to get one that can accommodate 12 amps or other devices. I may yet see another spot I may be able to mount more speakers. It would also be a good idea to put the Pioneer near the amps and out of the way but that also complicates the audio wires to the DVD players. I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks everybody for the advice.
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During my vacation.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydroman
^ditto all previous comments, and... since it is a drop ceiling (or appears to be one) couldn't you hide the wiring really easily? It is shame all the amps wouldn't fit in the rack - that would look tremendous.
Welcome to the Madness!
I will make it happen. I always say I'm going to clean up the theater. This time I will do it. This I vow. Appearance does matter.
P.S Wow, this Galdalf music is quite inspiring.
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I wish.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerlord
I don't know about these amps here but I do know a little about Behringer,I'm a musician and have played all brands of amps, there are alot of people out there that have no hands on knowledge that knock this brand because it isn't Marshall(which I think is the worst tube amp made) or it isn't Mesa,one of the best combo's i've played is a solid state behringer,it drove a 412 cab with ease and sounded great,you could get any tone out of it and clean channel was,well,pretty clean.For the price, they offer a pretty good amp.I'm sure these aren't Luxman or Tosh,or Parasound quality,but who knows,they might serve well.
Somebody else out there could confirm what I am experiencing in a home theater environment with these amps. Thanks for your insight.
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Let the truth be told.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
All joking aside, the only thing that matters is that you enjoy your system. Like I said, I used to own those speakers and they are what they are. I was happy with them but did not realize what I was missing until I upgraded.
If you're interested in organizing/hiding your cables, this link may be useful.
I do. I really do, LJ.
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Can you clarify?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
It appears that you are a big fan of multiple speakers, which to each his own. Personally I would rather have fewer great speakers than alot of decent speakers in my setup. It doesn't seem like the room you have is fitting for that many speakers as the pictures would suggest that the room is not really that big and for all those speakers there must be some bleeding over and/or cancelling out. However, cleaning it up, room calibration, and getting some room treatments would certainly help matters.
What are room treatments? Can you give me some examples?
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Room treatments...
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Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
What are room treatments? Can you give me some examples?
Room treatment typically and most commonly refers to methods of helping the acoustics of your room with the aid of various things, usually that are placed on the floors, walls, ceilings, or other critical areas in order to help the sound within a space. Most houses are not built for good acoustics, unlike a concert hall. So we are usually working with square or rectangular shaped rooms with 'dead' spots and other problem areas, which can be helped with certain treatments that are sold by various companies. Sometimes you can get away with using common house-objects to help matters, but it's good to get professional stuff if you can afford to. House-hold items would include carpeting/rugs, tapestries on the wall or other sound-absoring material to minimized the amount of sound bouncing. Others on this site could probably recommend some of their room treatment methods.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
What are room treatments? Can you give me some examples?
Here is a link that will get you started. It covers a lot more than bass traps and acoustic panelling, but I would suggest starting with proper speaker placement and go from there. If your speakers are too close to walls or if you are sitting in a null, treatments are not going to solve all your problems.
Acoustic Prinicpals
White Papers - CRC studies
Most speakers are direct radiating speakers. They use a driver that disperses sound from three or more drivers. A tweeter, a mid range, and woofer. The tweeter and the midrange disperse sound in a 180 degree radius from the front of the speaker (this is not completely accurate but it will do for now). The woofer handles low frequencies but low frequencies are dispersed in a 360 degree pattern "around" the speaker, or omnidirectional. All of the frequencies will bounce when they come in contact with a surface. The harder the surface, the more that is reflected. The closer to a wall, the more that will be reflected.
Why is this a big deal? The reflected sound does not arrive at the ear at the same time (we will skip phase and amplitude for now) and this causes delays and a scrambling, if you will, of the original sound. This can cause a speaker to sound boomy (more like a car stereo which is a confined space with LOTS of reflections), muddy (frequencies interfering with the original material, coloring the sound), and time issues (what seem like echos or a lip sync kind of affect). Speaker port direction is a myth. It is the omnidirectional qualities of bass frequencies that require us to pull speakers away from the walls, not which way the port faces on a speaker cabinet. All speakers need to be pulled away from the walls to avoid having the bass frequencies wreak havoc on the rest of the frequency range.
So, in a perfect world, you have a rectangular room. Square rooms are a problem. In this rectangular room, you will want your speakers to be on the short wall. You will want to sit two/thirds back from the front wall. Ideally, your front speakers should be 1/3 into the room. The speakers should be as far away from the side walls as one can tolerate without loosing the stereo effect and collapsing the sound stage (like a concert, you still want to hear the keyboard on the left, the vocals in the middle, and the guitar player on the right, for example). Now all of these things are either not practical or possible, but it is a good reference for what one is trying to achieve. Also, the front channels should be as close to ear level as possible so as sound pans from left to right (a train or car, for example) it sounds like the car is passing from left to right and not down the hill and up again (center channel too low) and so early reflections from the floor or ceiling are less influential.
Of all the walls in a room, the human ear is most attuned to sounds reflecting from the floor. This is because, all our lives, it is one of the few constants in sound, no matter where we go. Rarely are we not walking on solid ground, inside or outside. For simplicity, it is our point of reference for all other sounds. That is why I stress the use of speaker stands and properly placing the center channel up off the floor and as close to ear level as possible. There are programs for free that you can plug in your room dimensions and it will tell you what frequencies that will tend to overlap with one another. These overlaps, or room modes, are just like two people talking at the same time with the same content. They may be saying the same words at the same volume, but when spoken at the same time, produce a cancellation effect and/or a pitch of their own.
This is where room treatments come into play. Not every room is a perfect rectangle or have the perfect materials to absorb and deflect sound so acoustic treatments are used. Since bass frequencies are the biggest problem (who really has the room to put their front speakers 1/3 of the way into the room), bass traps are the number one recommendation to start off room treatments. Bass traps are usually placed in the corners of the room, to start with since this is where bass frequencies are amplified the most (why is for acoustics 202). That is why old school always suggested subwoofer placement in the corner of the room to get maximum dB from your subwoofer. But, as I pointed out earlier, bass is not our best friend and if overamplified, it will obscure the sound coming from the rest of the frequency range.
The next area to tackle is the primary reflections that occur on the floor, ceiling, and side walls. The link I gave you tells you how to locate them using a mirror. Once located, sound absorbers or diffusers are recommended in these locations, normally starting with the side walls.
I have rambled long enough and I am sure I have ruffled the subwoofer crowds feathers already but I thought this could be useful to someone and maybe peak their interest. Now, there are different speaker designs like horns and planars and coincident and ribbons and etc. that do not all conform to these "generalizations" but almost all of them are affected by bass and that is the biggest culprit that interferes with the original sound produced by a speaker cabinet.
So, you can see why I am not a fan of in wall speakers unless the significant other demands them. You are placing a driver in the exact place you do NOT want to place a speaker.
I did not cover the ultimate goal of having a flat frequency response over the entire speaker range in detail, but it is important and a simple SPL meter from Radio Shack will help you determine where your peaks and valleys are and provide a way of determining if your speaker placement is optimal.
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That second link didn't work, I don't think -- what did you search on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcott
Speaker port direction is a myth. It is the omnidirectional qualities of bass frequencies that require us to pull speakers away from the walls, not which way the port faces on a speaker cabinet. All speakers need to be pulled away from the walls to avoid having the bass frequencies wreak havoc on the rest of the frequency range.
I think I just had an epiphany. Thanks for posting that, that was very intuitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcott
So, you can see why I am not a fan of in wall speakers unless the significant other demands them. You are placing a driver in the exact place you do NOT want to place a speaker.
No, I'm not sure I see. The problem with frequencies -- any of them, bass or otherwise -- is interaction of the original frequency with reflections. By placing the drivers in the wall, there is only direct-radiated sound (well, I'm assuming an infinite baffle here, which isn't the case, it's an overgeneralization). The problem only shows up when you have the drivers close to the wall, and you have those short reflections cancelling themselves out.
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Wow!
Holy smokes, that kind of speaker setup in a room that small must really pressurize the room. Do you find that it gets a bit stuffy with all the gear running in there?
Shane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert-The-Rambler
My skin is thick. I can take it.
I'm glad you said that. :smilewinkgrin:
The only thing I can speak to, since I'm not familiar with your equipment... dude, you really need to invest in some more sq. ft.
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Quote:
Speaker port direction is a myth. It is the omnidirectional qualities of bass frequencies that require us to pull speakers away from the walls, not which way the port faces on a speaker cabinet. All speakers need to be pulled away from the walls to avoid having the bass frequencies wreak havoc on the rest of the frequency range
Not necessarily. Bookshelf speakers with rear ports that are actually placed in an enclosed book shelf can suffer from chuffing and port noise. At high excursion levels, the air simply has nowhere to go. I understand your argument, but the location of the port can absolutely matter depending on the installation parameters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topspeed
Not necessarily. Bookshelf speakers with rear ports that are actually placed in an enclosed book shelf can suffer from chuffing and port noise. At high excursion levels, the air simply has nowhere to go. I understand your argument, but the location of the port can absolutely matter depending on the installation parameters.
what are typical clearance requirements for a port?
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Nice assembly of amplification affordability bares a new meaning with Behringer EP2500. I would have thought you would have opted for the active crossover for the fronts with matching loudspeakers.
You might want to look at the (behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System) there is dbx 4800 version that is installed at the Empire Leicester square screen #1. Now unless you have £3k $3k for each dbx 4800 which is why Behringer have there own affordable version. You’ll need quite a few these make it all work.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...2496-large.jpg
I’m thinking of buy my first one sometime around next month for £168.99 UK!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topspeed
Not necessarily. Bookshelf speakers with rear ports that are actually placed in an enclosed book shelf can suffer from chuffing and port noise. At high excursion levels, the air simply has nowhere to go. I understand your argument, but the location of the port can absolutely matter depending on the installation parameters.
I agree with you totally. I guess I should have been more specific. Just like walls, enclosures, cabinets, AV stands and credenzas are all the speakers enemy and can amplify the bass problems I alluded to just like walls and any distortion being produced by a speaker, including port chuffing. If you are using a bookshelf speaker, I still recommend placing them away from the walls and on a stand instead of on a bookshelf that is usually enclosed on three or more sides. If this is not possible, a shelf that is not enclosed is better compromise. If you are placing a speaker so close to the wall that you are interfering with the ability of air to move freely in and out of the porting, you are not adhering to my earlier recommendations anyway.
Dusty,
I am going to let you read through all the articles I provided and then try to clarify anything you do not understand. One, they do a much better job than I at explaining acoustics and second, I think it would be more fruitful for both of us if we let you do a little homework on your own first. I will give you a hint though. Resonances!
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I'm speechless.
8000 watts, 27 speakers, 60 square feet, 1 electrical outlet.
Hanging speaker wire from the ceiling is a nice touch.
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Well, the wiring needs work. It will get done. More changes on the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
I'm speechless.
4000 watts, 27 speakers, 60 square feet. Hanging speaker wire from the ceiling is a nice touch.
That's actually 7800 watts soon to become closer to 9000 watts, 21 speakers, in a room that is not a rectangle so dimensions are a bit hard to quantify but it boils down to about 20 * 12 in most of the area except for the closet that was added near the front portion of the setup and the alcove that leads to the garage. Anyhow, there you have it. The changes I make will be revealed at a later time. <>__<>
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Damn. You changed your post. LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
I'm speechless.
8000 watts, 27 speakers, 60 square feet, 1 electrical outlet.
Hanging speaker wire from the ceiling is a nice touch.
It is not one outlet. Are you mad? <>__<> Not even I am crazy enough to do that. It is separated over FOUR outlets.
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I think the Pioneer VSX 1016 TSV does so well....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstorm
Nice assembly of amplification affordability bares a new meaning with Behringer EP2500. I would have thought you would have opted for the active crossover for the fronts with matching loudspeakers.
You might want to look at the (behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX2496 Ultra High-Precision Speaker Management System) there is dbx 4800 version that is installed at the Empire Leicester square screen #1. Now unless you have £3k $3k for each dbx 4800 which is why Behringer have there own affordable version. You’ll need quite a few these make it all work.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...2496-large.jpg
I’m thinking of buy my first one sometime around next month for £168.99 UK!
I don't think I really need much else when it comes to processing. The MCACC auto calibration does so well for equalization that I'm not even going to bother tweeking anything on my own. I'll just screw it up. Although, thanks for the recommendation. That's what I buy a receiver for.
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