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  1. #1
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    Okay, So This is the Essential Issue With Regard to, Again, ONKYO Receiver Owners....

    Lets get back to the heart of this issue, because the other one Im having --- regarding if enthusiasts believe RECEIVERS are "good enough" for powering home theater systems on average --- seems to be creating a **** storm in here of angry replies; so let me see if I can concentrate my dilemmas on this other "volume" issue which I would like to SPECIFICALLY and, if possible, ONLY direct toward folks who own ONKYO receivers, preferably non-THX certified models.

    It seems on my TX-SR600 ("80 watts x 6" or so Onkyo claims), I need to bring the volume "display number" on the front panel up to at least "50" (using the absolute volume scale, not the dB increments) when watching average Dolby Digital-encoded DVDs; now, I KNOW there are MANY MANY factors here --- the size of the room, how well the DVD was recorded, the kinds of speakers Im running --- but, I wanted to just know, from other folks who have had experience with Onkyo receiver products, if it seemed "normal" to need to bring their volumes when watching DVDs to such a high number like "50" on the display on average in order to get at least adequately loud sound; Onkyo claims this receiver should max out at the number "99" on the display --- but this receiver, the way I have it calibrated, tops out MUCH lower than "99" and I am wondering if thats a problem with the amount of power I have left or headroom I have left being that Im already running most soundtracks at "50" or above already....

    Now, like I said in the previous thread, dont get me wrong --- some well-recorded DTS soundtracks like, say, Saving Private Ryan, Gladiator, Black Hawk Down Superbit Edition or U-571 dont need much amplification PAST that "50" mark --- it seems most standard Dolby Digital soundtracks need the added volume......but I am dealing with other variables here which Im wondering are normal in a home theater setting......the room Im using is massive, and there are ambient noise distractions constantly, whether it be four barking dogs in my family's house, people in the adjoining kitchen talking, whatever.....also, it seems the dialogue channel in my 5.1 setup --- EVEN THOUGH I have the center channel bumped THREE DECIBELS higher than the other channels in the receiver's setup menu --- appears obviously softer than the rest of the system; I really gotta crank the receiver up to beyond "50" if Im watching a DVD that is strictly dialogue-heavy without any real action sequences....is this normal? And what about some of you other Onkyo receiver owners or past owners --- did you ever find what I am finding, that under the marking of "50" on the display, there didnt seem to be much sound, regardless of what size room you had your setup in? Do I ultimately need to lose sleep over this "running out of headroom" issue I think Im having; and do some of you other folks, even without Onkyo receivers, often find that when you are using the receiver in multichannel mode to watch a DVD, you need to bring your volumes up pretty high just in order to get "really immersed" in the soundtrack or to fill your room? Does this seem normal?

  2. #2
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    Dear Lexmark,
    It is posts like yours that have prevented me from total retirement yet. I think (and this may be foolish) that there is still hope in you. Reading from all your posts and yes, I did read them, I have concluded that you are a very unsatisfied buyer of a receiver. You have to IMMEDIATELY sell the Onkyo on ebay and get something else. Until you do that you won't find happiness. You want others to validate your purchase based on what you are telling them and this won't happen in reality.
    If you read my reply to your other post in another thread, I did mention that dialog i.e. center channels are the weakest link in receivers. The moment I added external amplification it was as if my center channel came to life. I have tried all sorts of receivers and even the mighty Denon 4802 came up short on the center channel.
    The clarity I get on Hotel California from the center channel and the clarity I get from musical instruments through an amplifier is unmatched. A receiver "WILL DO" in many cases but an external amplifier will outperform a receiver's internal amps IMHO.
    I will offer you this advise. Go to audiogon.com and buy a decent 5 or 7 channel amp. Buy a decent receiver with preouts and start experiencing Nirvana ASAP.
    Let me repeat, your Onkyo is weak in the power dept. and please, this is my opinion and I do not want to get into a pissing contest with anybody here trying to convince me otherwise.
    Finally Lexmark, sell the Onkyo and do what I have told you. By the way, are you happy with your Lexmark 3200? You have one, right?

    Sincerely,

    Nick.
    Wooch, Sir TT, etal are a part of a Northern California Conspiracy!
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  3. #3
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    "It is posts like yours that have prevented me from total retirement yet."

    What does this mean exactly?

    "I think (and this may be foolish) that there is still hope in you"

    Oh really, hope for what and what exactly are you implying? Do you have any idea the level of final education I have received or exactly what kind of person I am on the inside or what constitutes my feelings as a human being or what my favorite flavor of ice cream is or have you ever shook my hand, looked into my eyes, felt good when I smiled around you? My take on these answers would ne "no," but of COURSE you are going to write back, telling me the exact opposite and are going to tell me that you know me exactly, when you, in reality, dont. What can you POSSIBLY mean that it may be FOOLISH that there is still hope in me? Am I not human? What are you getting at?

    "Reading from all your posts and yes, I did read them"

    Good for you and thank you.

    "I have concluded that you are a very unsatisfied buyer of a receiver. You have to IMMEDIATELY sell the Onkyo on ebay and get something else. Until you do that you won't find happiness. You want others to validate your purchase based on what you are telling them and this won't happen in reality."

    Thats so far from the truth its not even funny ---- I am simply ASKING if OTHER ONKYO RECEIVER OWNERS need to bring their volumes, on average, beyond the "50" marker on the display. I want to do nothing of what you suggest in this statement.


    "If you read my reply to your other post in another thread, I did mention that dialog i.e. center channels are the weakest link in receivers. The moment I added external amplification it was as if my center channel came to life. I have tried all sorts of receivers and even the mighty Denon 4802 came up short on the center channel."

    Perhaps I did not remember this part of the last thread where you mentioned this; I cannot believe that someone would need to, though, give up a receiver for separates based SOLELY on the center channel weakness. Still, I DO experience this center channel "deadness" that I have been trying to explain; there seems to be no room-filling "life" to the center position in my system, and THATS WITH cranking the center THREE DECIBLELS higher than the others in the setup menu.

    "The clarity I get on Hotel California from the center channel and the clarity I get from musical instruments through an amplifier is unmatched. A receiver "WILL DO" in many cases but an external amplifier will outperform a receiver's internal amps IMHO.
    I will offer you this advise. Go to audiogon.com and buy a decent 5 or 7 channel amp. Buy a decent receiver with preouts and start experiencing Nirvana ASAP.
    Let me repeat, your Onkyo is weak in the power dept. and please, this is my opinion and I do not want to get into a pissing contest with anybody here trying to convince me otherwise."

    You are missing what I am asking, so with all due respect if you dont own an Onkyo, please refrain from commenting further --- I would like to know from OTHER Onkyo receiver owners if it seems "normal" to need to bring the volume up to "50" or higher when watching DVDs, a question by which I get very mixed answers on.....many say yes, but when you say my Onkyo is weak in the power department, I dont think this is really the issue.....some DVD soundtracks REALLY, really explode when I play them back, especially if its a well done DTS track, so my question still remains: why do I need to go beyond the "50" mark on this display or is this normal?

    "Finally Lexmark, sell the Onkyo and do what I have told you. By the way, are you happy with your Lexmark 3200? You have one, right?"

    Im not selling my Onkyo right now, and your sarcasm is not really called for or necessary. I used to have that printer at work but dont anymore, and I am trying to have my screen name changed through administration.
    Last edited by Lexmark3200; 07-12-2005 at 12:42 PM.

  4. #4
    JSE
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    Lex,

    I will try and be civil given our "contentious" history. The answer to your question is the same anwer that was given to you many times several years ago and many times in between. Your sub is the weakest part of your system. If I remember right, you have a 10" Polk sub. It is simply outclassed by many subs out there today for less than $500. Do yourself a favor and demo and SVS, HSU, Paradigm, even a partsexpress DIY Titanic sub. You will be see a HUGE difference. Seperates will not help your sub, a new better sub will help your sub.

    And YES, your receiver is more than enough to give you HT bliss when used in conjunction with decent speakers, a good sub and good room acoustics. This is true for any receiver, amp, prepro, etc regardless of cost or power.

    With all do respect, this has been answer over and over for you over the last couple of years. If you are not going to do what it takes to make your system better based on the wisdom of the people on this board, then let it rest and don't worry about it. Like the wise Topspeed said, we can't tell you if your receiver is "enough". Only you can. We can only give suggestions on how to improve it.

    JSE

  5. #5
    ride a jet ski Tarheel_'s Avatar
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    First it was the difference between DD EX and DTS ES and the whole 5.1 vs 7.1 speakers stuff...then the subwoofer.......now the AVR.

    And lets not forget the old 'now i'm JOHN BEREFORD' name and the same lame discussions.

    What gives, everyone here hoped you'd found another forum to harrass.


    Next, it'll be the discusson on remote IR distances and the effectiveness of dusting components to improve sound.

  6. #6
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    "I will try and be civil given our "contentious" history. The answer to your question is the same anwer that was given to you many times several years ago and many times in between."

    I dont recall anything regarding what you are saying here, except for our contentious, unwavering, uncvil history, but okay......


    "Your sub is the weakest part of your system. If I remember right, you have a 10" Polk sub. It is simply outclassed by many subs out there today for less than $500. Do yourself a favor and demo and SVS, HSU, Paradigm, even a partsexpress DIY Titanic sub. You will be see a HUGE difference. Seperates will not help your sub, a new better sub will help your sub."

    Okay, I'll consider this, but I still dont understand how its going to make a difference in the number of the display I am seeing.

    "And YES, your receiver is more than enough to give you HT bliss when used in conjunction with decent speakers, a good sub and good room acoustics. This is true for any receiver, amp, prepro, etc regardless of cost or power."

    Thank you; thats what I wanted to know and something the "getleman" (I am having a hard time deciding if thats the proper title for him yet) before you had me worried about with regard to the oppposite, telling me to dump my Onkyo on E Bay and that its nowhere near powerful enough; but now you tell me the opposite, which I believe somehow....

    "With all do respect this has been answer over and over for you over the last couple of years."

    I dont believe anyone on this board is capable of providing anything resembling "respect" (except for some very "civil" new members), but at any rate, you above statement is not ringing true for me....where did I ever ask about the volume dial number on my unit?

  7. #7
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Uh oh.....(Ducks, covers his head, and runs screaming from the room)....
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarheel_
    First it was the difference between DD EX and DTS ES and the whole 5.1 vs 7.1 speakers stuff...then the subwoofer.......now the AVR.

    And lets not forget the old 'now i'm JOHN BEREFORD' name and the same lame discussions.

    What gives, everyone here hoped you'd found another forum to harrass.


    Next, it'll be the discusson on remote IR distances and the effectiveness of dusting components to improve sound.

    Well, well.......look who decided to chime in.....it was a matter of time wasnt it.....

    First of all, I STILL dont know what you are talking about with regard to John Beresford, and if your definition of "Harassment" is measured by the behavior of your fellow members, I'll take that as a complement, Tarheel......when did I EVER harass anyone on here? I think it is HONESTLY the COMPLETE other way around, my friend. Take a good, long look in that mirror before pointing a finger.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Thank you; thats what I wanted to know and something the "getleman" (I am having a hard time deciding if thats the proper title for him yet) before you had me worried about with regard to the oppposite, telling me to dump my Onkyo on E Bay and that its nowhere near powerful enough; but now you tell me the opposite, which I believe somehow....
    Good, so you were looking for others to validate your purchase. I still think you should dump the Onkyo ASAP!
    By the way, which ice cream flavor do you like?
    Wooch, Sir TT, etal are a part of a Northern California Conspiracy!
    Smokey, admit you are using your receiver as a prepro!!

  10. #10
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    "Good, so you were looking for others to validate your purchase."

    No, I wasnt. And I KNOW I wasnt. I was ASKING other Onkyo receiver owners if it seems normal that their volume displays need to come up to "50" or beyond to create decent volume.

    "I still think you should dump the Onkyo ASAP!"

    And why is that exactly?

    "By the way, which ice cream flavor do you like?"

    THATS funny. Had me chuckling a bit knowing what you were going for with this question.....the bating, the bating......come on, you gotta get a new routine.....

  11. #11
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Runs back in....AV equipment is being tossed back and forth...runs back out battered, bruised and confused
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  12. #12
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    My receiver goes to 11.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    My receiver goes to 11.
    Very funny.......

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    It seems on my TX-SR600 ("80 watts x 6" or so Onkyo claims), I need to bring the volume "display number" on the front panel up to at least "50" (using the absolute volume scale, not the dB increments) when watching average Dolby Digital-encoded DVDs
    The number is arbitrary. Ignore it as it doesn't mean a thing in the real world. This is audio; trust your ears, not your eyes.
    I KNOW there are MANY MANY factors here --- the size of the room, how well the DVD was recorded, the kinds of speakers Im running
    Don't forget room acoustics, absorbtion rates, room nodes...
    also, it seems the dialogue channel in my 5.1 setup --- EVEN THOUGH I have the center channel bumped THREE DECIBELS higher than the other channels in the receiver's setup menu --- appears obviously softer than the rest of the system
    Did you calibrate your system using an spl meter and calibration disc? If you did and there is still this huge discrepency between your mains and your cc, have you considered the cc's location and whether or not your seating position is on axis? Some cc's are more directional than others and you might want to consider tweaking its position and angle and then recalibrating. If all else fails, chalk it up to a poor cc or bad mix (entirely possible).
    I really gotta crank the receiver up to beyond "50" if Im watching a DVD that is strictly dialogue-heavy without any real action sequences....is this normal?
    There is no normal. Different rooms, different acoustics, different furniture, different hearing, different speakers, blahblahblah.
    And what about some of you other Onkyo receiver owners or past owners --- did you ever find what I am finding, that under the marking of "50" on the display, there didnt seem to be much sound, regardless of what size room you had your setup in?
    There's the rub; you can't say "regardless of what size room you had." In audio, volume is everything. Wouldn't you agree that it is much easier to pressurize a standard 10'x10' room vs. a 18x20 with 20' ceilings? Unless you know of a way to circumvent natural physics, room size is paramount to perceived volume.
    Do I ultimately need to lose sleep over this "running out of headroom" issue I think Im having; and do some of you other folks, even without Onkyo receivers, often find that when you are using the receiver in multichannel mode to watch a DVD, you need to bring your volumes up pretty high just in order to get "really immersed" in the soundtrack or to fill your room? Does this seem normal?
    Again, there is no 'normal.' Unless you feel your Onkyo is straining (audible compression at high volumes or clipping) got to bed and rest easy. You're fine.

  15. #15
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    "The number is arbitrary. Ignore it as it doesn't mean a thing in the real world."

    Thank you Top Speed; I know the number is arbitrary --- I am WELL aware of that; Im just wondering if OTHER Onkyo receiver owners were experiencing the same things with regard to where power begins to develop on their receivers as well, in GENERAL, which I think is VERY relevant to the subject at hand.


    "Did you calibrate your system using an spl meter and calibration disc?"

    It has been professionally calibrated by a home theater installation outlet because the system I am running now is being "borrowed" by me for the time being because I recently relocated into my family's house; they had an installer from Southern Nevada Music and Visuals come down and professionally calibrate everything with meters.


    "If you did and there is still this huge discrepency between your mains and your cc, have you considered the cc's location and whether or not your seating position is on axis?"

    Everything seems to be right here; center channel position is directly on top of the Mitsubishi 55" screen and hits just above ear level when seated in the sweet spot some 15 feet away.


    "Some cc's are more directional than others and you might want to consider tweaking its position and angle and then recalibrating. If all else fails, chalk it up to a poor cc or bad mix (entirely possible)."

    I realize this, based on many of the DVD reviews I do, that the MIX of the audio may be responsible.....unfortunately, there is no other way to tweak the positioning of the center channel.


    "There is no normal. Different rooms, different acoustics, different furniture, different hearing, different speakers, blahblahblah. There's the rub; you can't say "regardless of what size room you had.""

    Yes, but what I wanted to know is if OTHER Onkyo receiver owners --- LIKE THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS OF ON OTHER AUDIO RELATED WEBSITES LIKE "HOME THEATER SPOT" DEDICATED TO ONLY ONKYO DISCUSSIONS --- are experiencing the same "lack of developing power below the "50" mark" issue I am having --- I believe this supercedes the statement you make above of things being regardless of blah blah blah....

    "Wouldn't you agree that it is much easier to pressurize a standard 10'x10' room vs. a 18x20 with 20' ceilings?"

    Yes; hence why Im concerned if this receiver is enough to power this room, if you look in another thread I started in here.....

    "Unless you feel your Onkyo is straining (audible compression at high volumes or clipping) got to bed and rest easy. You're fine"

    Thank you; I have been experiencing no audible compression or clipping at any levels so far.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    "I will try and be civil given our "contentious" history. The answer to your question is the same anwer that was given to you many times several years ago and many times in between."

    I dont recall anything regarding what you are saying here, except for our contentious, unwavering, uncvil history, but okay......


    "Your sub is the weakest part of your system. If I remember right, you have a 10" Polk sub. It is simply outclassed by many subs out there today for less than $500. Do yourself a favor and demo and SVS, HSU, Paradigm, even a partsexpress DIY Titanic sub. You will be see a HUGE difference. Seperates will not help your sub, a new better sub will help your sub."

    Okay, I'll consider this, but I still dont understand how its going to make a difference in the number of the display I am seeing.

    "And YES, your receiver is more than enough to give you HT bliss when used in conjunction with decent speakers, a good sub and good room acoustics. This is true for any receiver, amp, prepro, etc regardless of cost or power."

    Thank you; thats what I wanted to know and something the "getleman" (I am having a hard time deciding if thats the proper title for him yet) before you had me worried about with regard to the oppposite, telling me to dump my Onkyo on E Bay and that its nowhere near powerful enough; but now you tell me the opposite, which I believe somehow....

    "With all do respect this has been answer over and over for you over the last couple of years."

    I dont believe anyone on this board is capable of providing anything resembling "respect" (except for some very "civil" new members), but at any rate, you above statement is not ringing true for me....where did I ever ask about the volume dial number on my unit?
    Hey Lex, do this test for me please. Hopefully all your speakers are set to small, 80 hz and all calibrated properly. My denon goes from + numbers to - numbers so 00 is my reference. Set your onkyo so 50 or 60 or even 70 as long as whatever number you choose, they all read 75db on your spl at your listening position. Now crank up T3 at reference level with NO SUB ON, (I now you like this tracks sound). Hopefully all your speakers are sounding loud and clear, if not either your speakers or your receiver is crapping out and you will have to decide which one. Lets assume the speakers and receiver are keeping up. With no sub on you might be thinking is this it, is this as good as my receiver will ever sound. Now add your sub to the mix at about 4 -7 db higher then the rest. Is it keeping up or is it mudding up the loud clear sound you had with your 5 speakers and receiver. I'm thinking that it may not be keeping up but lets just assume that it is, but barely. On all the low parts everything sounds good, but the loud demanding parts things may sound strained. When one thing in your system sounds strained, everything sounds strained. People always describe that you need lots of power to get the headroom (in your sound) you need so no parts in your system sound strained. The hardest most demanding piece in anyones system to achieve the headroom one needs is the subwoofer. It doesn't matter if you have a denon 1804 like I have or a denon 3805 or 4806, the sub will make or break your system. You add a quality more powerfull sub, you will get a more powerfull overall sound from your existing receiver and speakers as long as your receiver and speakers passed the first test, that they can play T3 loud and clear at reference level with no sub on. I'm rambling but I hope this helps. I sure hope you invest in a HSU or SVS or maybe even a Paradigm PW-2200 like I have, you will not regret it.

  17. #17
    JSE
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    "Okay, I'll consider this, but I still dont understand how its going to make a difference in the number of the display I am seeing."

    Like Topspeed said, it's arbitrary. Don't worry about what others think, because it's arbitrary. That "number" displayed has nothing to do with the power output. If it sounds good, be happy. To let a number diplayed on your receiver cause this much concern on your part is crazy.

    "I dont believe anyone on this board is capable of providing anything resembling "respect"

    We all, for the most part, seem to get along pretty good on this board and treat each other with respect.

    "(except for some very "civil" new members)"

    Give them time.

    "but at any rate, you above statement is not ringing true for me....where did I ever ask about the volume dial number on my unit?"

    Maybe not as Lexmark 3200.

  18. #18
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  19. #19
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Couldn't you find your answer here?
    http://www.onkyousa.com/support/

    Who can I contact with questions about my Onkyo product?
    Please contact our Corporate Headquarters at:
    Onkyo USA Corporation
    18 Park Way
    Upper Saddle River, New Jersey 07458
    Tel: 201-785-2600
    Fax: 201-785-2650

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    Couldn't you find your answer here?
    http://www.onkyousa.com/support/

    Who can I contact with questions about my Onkyo product?
    Please contact our Corporate Headquarters at:
    Onkyo USA Corporation
    18 Park Way
    Upper Saddle River, New Jersey 07458
    Tel: 201-785-2600
    Fax: 201-785-2650
    They had no answer for me on the number issue; but thank you.

  21. #21
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    "Like Topspeed said, it's arbitrary. Don't worry about what others think, because it's arbitrary. That "number" displayed has nothing to do with the power output. If it sounds good, be happy. To let a number diplayed on your receiver cause this much concern on your part is crazy."

    *sigh* I KNOW the number displayed has nothing at all to do with the power output; Im just wondering, hopefully via other ONKYO RECEIVER OWNERS if it seems normal for power to develop at this number or beyond; thats why the title of the thread reads specifically what it does, or did.


    "We all, for the most part, seem to get along pretty good on this board and treat each other with respect."

    Questionable, and your comment below goes in direct opposition to what you are saying here; below, you suggest that these NEW MEMBERS WILL eventually become hostile, but yet you say you and the members in here treat each other with respect......which is it?

    "Give them time."

    See above statement.

    "Maybe not as Lexmark 3200."

    Not true.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    "but at any rate, you above statement is not ringing true for me....where did I ever ask about the volume dial number on my unit?"

    Maybe not as Lexmark 3200.
    I've been thinkiing the very same thing for quite some time now. Likewise TLADINY as well.

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=Lexmark3200 I KNOW the number displayed has nothing at all to do with the power output; Im just wondering, hopefully via other ONKYO RECEIVER OWNERS if it seems normal for power to develop at this number or beyond[/QUOTE]


    Huh? That statement completely contridicts itself.

    and

    If you will recall, I had your same receiver a few years back. I do remember having the volume set to similiar levels. Seems like DVD's were about 45 to 50 on average, can't remember in regard to what sound formats. I think cable viewing was around the low 30 mark or so. I think. My Yamaha has the same behavior and my even older Onkyo did the same as well.

  24. #24
    Resident DVD Reviewer
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    "Huh? That statement completely contridicts itself."

    Okay: I didnt make this clear because your wording set me up for this; I wanted to know, SIMPLY, from other Onkyo receiver product owners past or present, if it seemed NORMAL to need the volume display to read beyond "50" in order to really feel like the receiver was "kicking in" or "warming up", but you address this below:


    "If you will recall, I had your same receiver a few years back. I do remember having the volume set to similiar levels. Seems like DVD's were about 45 to 50 on average, can't remember in regard to what sound formats. I think cable viewing was around the low 30 mark or so. I think. My Yamaha has the same behavior and my even older Onkyo did the same as well"

    THESE are the kinds of things I wanted to know; thank you. So it seems normal that I need to watch DVDs ON AVERAGE from 45 to 50? I do no cable watching through this receiver, so its only DVD......but thank you for sharing this information with me.

  25. #25
    Resident DVD Reviewer
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    I've been thinkiing the very same thing for quite some time now. Likewise TLADINY as well.
    See my above reply to JSE, specifically with regard to those who disrespect and harass in here, which he tells me to "give time to" the new members in doing......hmmmmm.....

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