New HD-DVD info: not good news if you use component vid for HDTV

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I kinda figured you were. (just doing my part to keep the Nick alien abduction rumors alive! ) Keep in mind though that the theme across most of this thread has centered on why people plan to sit out this round of format upgrades. I know that Terrence is dipping into previously untapped reserves of self-control to keep his mitts off of those first HD-DVD players. But, I think the consortia rolling out these new video formats are doing more than enough on their own to dampen consumer enthusiasm.

Brudda,
I have a DCC player, a DAT recorder, and a Sony Betamax super hifi all sitting around collecting dust. I early adopted into all of these formats and was made sorry for it. This time these latin hands are saying "don't touch this!!"

Nick WAS abducted by aliens. They did weird medical experiments on him that took him from multichannel to stereo.

[nick4433]

Brudda,
I have a DCC player, a DAT recorder, and a Sony Betamax super hifi all sitting around collecting dust. I early adopted into all of these formats and was made sorry for it. This time these latin hands are saying "don't touch this!!"

Nick WAS abducted by aliens. They did weird medical experiments on him that took him from multichannel to stereo.

I sincerely wish for and hope that both you and Wooch stop these alien abduction rumors. I am still the same old Nick who capped your ass one too many times and converted you into a human sprinkler system. I was also never in jail as according to a theory floated by none other than you two again. I am an honest citizen spreading the good virtues of 5.1 sound and good old 2 channel stereo alike.
I have no idea how and when Wooch joined the dark side but it is very saddening to see him on the side of Sir TT. Again, I have no one to blame for this but my prolonged absence from this board but it's never too late to set the record straight.
I also know very well that in order to prove his alien theory, Sir TT has wiped off my existence on this board prior to Dec 2003 which also helps their claim I was in jail. I was very much a member of this board in 2000 and my good friend ADAM would have definitely come forward but Sir TT's and (unfortunately) Wooch's sinister plans have made ADAM disappear from this board. Adam, if you are reading this then please come forward as I really could use your help. (I feel like Will Smith from Enemy of the State.)
Richard, Q, Mytry, anyone please come forward.

[Woochifer]

I sincerely wish for and hope that both you and Wooch stop these alien abduction rumors. I am still the same old Nick who capped your ass one too many times and converted you into a human sprinkler system. I was also never in jail as according to a theory floated by none other than you two again. I am an honest citizen spreading the good virtues of 5.1 sound and good old 2 channel stereo alike.
I have no idea how and when Wooch joined the dark side but it is very saddening to see him on the side of Sir TT. Again, I have no one to blame for this but my prolonged absence from this board but it's never too late to set the record straight.
I also know very well that in order to prove his alien theory, Sir TT has wiped off my existence on this board prior to Dec 2003 which also helps their claim I was in jail. I was very much a member of this board in 2000 and my good friend ADAM would have definitely come forward but Sir TT's and (unfortunately) Wooch's sinister plans have made ADAM disappear from this board. Adam, if you are reading this then please come forward as I really could use your help. (I feel like Will Smith from Enemy of the State.)
Richard, Q, Mytry, anyone please come forward.

Leave it up to Terrence to complete my training.

Man, if you're actually spreading the virtues of 5.1 and two-channel alike, then I take everything back about the alien abductions. Turns out that some doc must've switched out your meds, and we're now getting two Nicks for the price of one! (Well, okay maybe the replicant theory still applies) Good to have you back ... well, good to have one of you back!

Roses are red, violets are blue, I am schizophrenic, and so am I

P.S. I had nothing to do with Adam's disappearance, and it is an ongoing investigation, and that's all that I will say until a more appropriate time, and it is an ongoing investigation.

[mixadude]

And you wonder why I got out of the hifi biz in the early '70's.

This shifting consumer standards stuff has me scratchin my head and wondering and waiting, and consequately suffering. I'm watching a 27" Sony TV here at home, unable to commit. And until I can get a fairly solid answer, that's my position. Ferk em! There not gettin a replaceable dime from me if I can help it.

I have been a professional sound engineer with a job since 1977. Before that I was a pretty serious hobbiest, engineering student, and practicing mixer and engineer beginning about 1967 as well as a r'n'r musician. As for my professional video experience, it goes back to about 1981. BUT, all this consumer crap leaves me totally flumoxed and wanting to go find a 12" B+W, and visit nothing but IMAX theatres

[edtyct]

Corporations are like sharks. Their entire raison d'etre is to gobble up as much as they can. They are not concerned with saving anyone's money, and ethical considerations are only an occasional impediment to their actions (assuming a government that would actually deign to exercise a responsible regulatory function; the shark, more than ever, has become king of our political culture).

But in this case, getting DVD in HD, along with HD audio, is an option, not a right. I'm wondering whether people are upset because they think that they should have these new things at a lower price, or because while they are waiting for this lower price, the format war might destroy their prospects completely. But the companies involved aren't going to collaborate with each other unless they perceive it to be in their own interest. I'm not saying that they won't eventually be driven to do so; if movie studios, DVD chains, and consumers utterly refuse their offer, they may eventually change their tune. But so long as they think that they have a chance to trump each other, within the parameters of acceptable risk, they will proceed to launch their products regardless of their bad press or the uneasiness, indifference, skepticism, or technical unreadiness of various consumers. Consumers buy products even when they have pits in their stomachs; the promise of pleasure sometimes overcomes unpleasant contingencies. And early adopters always seem to crawl out of the woodwork (I, for one, have the scrapes and bruises to prove it).

Or do dissenting consumers just think that the current DVD standard is good enough for the foreseeable future, if the upgrades mean having to buy more hard- and software. That's a perfectly legitimate choice, until for whatever reason, it doesn't work any more. In liminal moments like this one, we tend to portray ourselves as disembodied, privileged observers who aren't part of the culture. Nonetheless, we often end up getting washed out to sea by currents that we at one time might never imagined to have been so strong, whether for good or ill. This may not be the most significant wave that we will ever have experienced, but it may well be a case in point.

Ed

[Woochifer]

But in this case, getting DVD in HD, along with HD audio, is an option, not a right. I'm wondering whether people are upset because they think that they should have these new things at a lower price, or because while they are waiting for this lower price, the format war might destroy their prospects completely. But the companies involved aren't going to collaborate with each other unless they perceive it to be in their own interest. I'm not saying that they won't eventually be driven to do so; if movie studios, DVD chains, and consumers utterly refuse their offer, they may eventually change their tune. But so long as they think that they have a chance to trump each other, within the parameters of acceptable risk, they will proceed to launch their products regardless of their bad press or the uneasiness, indifference, skepticism, or technical unreadiness of various consumers. Consumers buy products even when they have pits in their stomachs; the promise of pleasure sometimes overcomes unpleasant contingencies. And early adopters always seem to crawl out of the woodwork (I, for one, have the scrapes and bruises to prove it).

I think what people are stewing about in the case of HD-DVD and Blu-ray is that they want to see HD video discs succeed in the market, and consumers with HDTVs have a pent up demand for more HD content. But, consumers see all kinds of ill-conceived market barriers already going up before the formats have even hit the stores. I think that next year will be the year that HDTV comes of age. I see HDTV sales taking off in a big way, and the broadcast, cable, satellite, and DVR providers have got their plans and hardware plans in place (expecting that Directv will have an upgrade plan for its HD customers once they move their HD transmissions over to the new satellites and the MPEG-4 format). If there was one HD video disc standard in place, then it would be perfectly poised to ride that tide of consumer enthusiasm and the demand for HD programming that all of the new HDTVs will create.

With two dueling incompatible formats, and now restrictions on HD analog outputs, it's put quite a damper on the enthusiasm. What's really interesting about this format launch is just how much backlash has already gotten stirred up. People who would ordinarily be early adoptors don't see a clearcut front runner that they can get behind. If the chances are roughly 50-50 that they will have an $800 paperweight in their closet within three years by choosing one format over another, then I can see how they might not want to dive in right off the bat. Even the consortia getting ready to launch this format war acknowledge that a lot of consumers are ready to sit things out until one clear HD format emerges. (see article below)

Or do dissenting consumers just think that the current DVD standard is good enough for the foreseeable future, if the upgrades mean having to buy more hard- and software. That's a perfectly legitimate choice, until for whatever reason, it doesn't work any more. In liminal moments like this one, we tend to portray ourselves as disembodied, privileged observers who aren't part of the culture. Nonetheless, we often end up getting washed out to sea by currents that we at one time might never imagined to have been so strong, whether for good or ill. This may not be the most significant wave that we will ever have experienced, but it may well be a case in point.

I think the scenario with consumers sticking with DVD is actually very likely. Consumers make their decisions based on perceived value. For consumers who are happy with DVD, HD-DVD/Blu-ray might have minimal value. For consumers who do not currently own HDTVs and do not plan to buy one soon, HD-DVD/Blu-ray will likely have no value. For consumers who currently own HDTVs with analog inputs only, HD-DVD/Blu-ray will have a lot less value than it would have had with full resolution analog video. At the outset, the only consumer group for whom HD-DVD/Blu-ray will have high value will be those consumers who own HDTVs with digital video connections. And that group currently consists of only about 2 to 3 million households in the U.S. Considering that over 90 million DVD players have been sold in the U.S. so far, it looks like HD-DVD/Blu-ray is in no position to arbitrarily limit their market.

With the transition from VHS to DVD, the DVD format provided plenty of value for consumers. First, the picture quality improvement benefited everybody. Second, the DVD fully embraced discrete multichannel audio, which had only been available on a few select Laserdisc titles and players. Third, the DVD provided opportunities for new interactive features. HD-DVD and Blu-ray only provide better resolution with the video and audio, so the value aspect is not as clear cut this time around. Even with one unified HD disc format, the relatively recent ascendance of the DVD is a significant force to compete with. With two divided camps and further market restrictions from the outset, HD-DVD and Blu-ray are digging themselves a big hole at the outset, and one that they might not be able to climb out of. The HD market is ready to take off, and it might not pull HD-DVD and Blu-ray up with it.

[Woochifer]

Here's an Investor's Daily News article on the upcoming HD-DVD/Blu-ray format war (I got the link from The Digital Bits, which has been a consistent proponent of a unified disc format from the beginning). A lot of interesting info, including the likelihood of an internet connection built into the new players that can unlock additional content for a fee (is this DivX reincarnated?).

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...d/200581tech01

Blu-ray Vs. HD DVD Slows High-Definition

Brian Deagon Mon Aug 1, 7:00 PM ET

Much to the chagrin of most everyone, people who plan to buy high-definition DVD players will have to decide between two competing formats.

The first models will arrive later this year, using a format called HD DVD. A second version, using a format called Blu-ray, will follow three to six months later. HD DVD and Blu-ray are not compatible with one another. Blu-ray DVDs won't play on HD DVD players, and vice versa.

For consumers, it's VCR vs. Betamax all over again. (See related story, this page.)

Almost 30 years ago, two competing formats emerged for videocassette tape recorders. The Betamax, made by Sony, arrived first. The VCR followed, supported by an array of manufacturers. Though the Betamax was considered to be the better player technically, the VCR won. The original Betamax could only record one hour. The VCR was designed to record for four hours, which was deemed necessary so that Americans could record an entire football game.

In short, bigger was better. This is also the reason Blu-ray has more high-profile backers than HD DVD.

When HD DVD was first announced, its disc capacity was 30 gigabytes, up from today's standard 5 gigabyte DVDs.

But the Blu-ray disc was 50 gigabytes. The higher capacity of Blu-ray enticed Hewlett-Packard (NYSE:HPQ - News) and Dell (NasdaqNMELL - News), the two largest PC makers, to join the Sony-led Blu-ray group. Other Blu-ray backers include Hitachi (NYSE:HIT - News), Matsu****a's (NYSE:MC - News) Panasonic, Pioneer (NYSE:PIO - News), Philips Electronics (NYSE:PHG - News), Samsung, Apple Computer (NasdaqNM:AAPL - News), Thomson (NYSE:TMS - News), Sharp, LG Electronics and JVC.

Added Capacity

But in May, the HD DVD group said its discs would hold 45 gigabytes, not 30. Toshiba leads the HD DVD side. Other corporate backers are NEC (NasdaqNM:NIPNY - News), Sanyo (NasdaqSC:SANYY - News) and Thomson, the one company on both sides. Both systems are designed to play DVD movies in high-definition format, which Hollywood studios are eager to provide. High-def will display twice the resolution of current DVDs, and thus will be a match for high-def TV sets.

Both versions will be backward compatible. That is, they will play your current stack of DVD movies. Recordable versions will come later, at a higher price.

Both versions are expected to have an Internet connection, allowing interactive communication. For example, consumers might pay a fee to unlock additional features on a disc.

Certainly, only one standard -- possibly a "merger" of the two standards -- will win out. For now, Hollywood is split down the middle.

Blu-ray backers include Disney, 20th Century Fox, Touchstone and Miramax. Sony also brings to the table Sony Pictures and MGM, which it recently bought.

HD DVD is backed by Paramount, Universal, Warner, HBO and New Line Cinema.

Each side plans to make DVD movies in its favored format, but none has said they'll make DVDs in both formats.

Like Hollywood studios, consumers are caught in a quandary.

Both systems will appear identical in terms of features and performance. At first, HD DVD discs should be cheaper to make, and it has a three- to six-month lead in development.

"But I don't think that HD DVD being first to market will give it that much of an edge," said Joni Blecher, an analyst at Jupiter Research.

Early Adopters Waiting

With new technologies, there always are people pining to be early adopters. But maybe not this time.

"We think early adopters will wait, as they are aware of the format wars," said Andy Parsons, a Pioneer Electronics senior vice president.

No question the backers for either standard will switch sides if they decide the other format will win.

One plus for Blu-ray is that Sony says it will use the technology in its next PlayStation game console, the PS3. But the PS3 won't be out until mid-2006, months after HD DVD is expected to be out on the market. Moreover, Microsoft (NasdaqNM:MSFT - News) is in talks with the HD DVD group about the possibility of using that format in future versions of the
Xbox, PlayStation's major rival.

Consumers, at some point, will make the call, but Hollywood has an influential role. And there, HD DVD may have an edge.

HD DVD will enable four different disc formats: A 15-gigabyte version, as well as 30- and 45-gigabyte versions. It will also have a two-sided disk format that will play HD movies on one side and the current DVD format on the other. A 30-gigabyte disc provides eight hours of content. These formats give Hollywood some less expensive options.

Blu-ray will have just 50-gigabyte and 25-gigabyte formats.

"The studios tell us 15 gigabytes is enough," said Mark Knox, an adviser for the HD DVD group.

"We have lots of programming and not everything we sell requires 50 gigabytes, or even 25 gigabytes, so we like the flexibility that HD DVD provides," said Steve Nickerson, a senior vice president at Warner Home Video.

[edtyct]

Wooch,

That seems to be it in a nutshell. But the companies involved have their own agenda, seemingly undaunted by such analyses. Many of us would like to have DVD in HD, but few people will risk their hard-earned money on it at this point, for all the reasons given. But such are the terms that we're offered, unless some other interested party like Microsoft is able to sneak into the picture and grab the opportunity. However, if Toshiba is able to produce enough titles in a short time, maybe enough early adopters will emerge to justify continuing. Hell, there are people out there buying the Chinese 720p players and disks. I simply don't know what would be a satisfactory launch in this case. To say the least, it will be interesting to find out.

Ed

[Woochifer]

Wooch,

That seems to be it in a nutshell. But the companies involved have their own agenda, seemingly undaunted by such analyses. Many of us would like to have DVD in HD, but few people will risk their hard-earned money on it at this point, for all the reasons given. But such are the terms that we're offered, unless some other interested party like Microsoft is able to sneak into the picture and grab the opportunity. However, if Toshiba is able to produce enough titles in a short time, maybe enough early adopters will emerge to justify continuing. Hell, there are people out there buying the Chinese 720p players and disks. I simply don't know what would be a satisfactory launch in this case. To say the least, it will be interesting to find out.

Ed

It will be very interesting because both sides have their ace in the hole that they can use to make a play for market share. HD-DVD has the two-sided flipper disc format that they can use to issue dual format DVD/HD-DVD releases. If the studios supporting HD-DVD shift their new releases to a hybrid DVD/HD-DVD format (highly doubtful they will considering the greed involved), then they can potentially flood the market with HD-DVD discs before Blu-ray even hits the stores.

Meanwhile, Blu-ray will be included with the upcoming Playstation 3, which means potentially millions of Blu-ray players in people's homes, even those without HDTVs. The PS3 factor will also likely drive player prices down, because video game consoles won't sell if they're outrageously expensive and most of the revenue comes from the games anyway. A lot of people used PS2 consoles as their primary DVD player when it first came out, and it could be a similar situation here. Problem with Blu-ray is that they might have millions of PS3 consoles seeding the market, but the need for retailers to maintain dual inventories with their discs might mean very few stores where consumers can find Blu-ray discs. As a side note, the PS3 will also include SACD, an indication that SACD might be a standard part of Blu-ray.

PS3 to offer Dual disc, CD, SACD, and BlueRay playback

But, so long as the studios themselves remain divided evenly, neither format will gain the upper hand for a long time. Studios breaking ranks and issuing discs in both formats (not likely) might free up enough space for one format to eventually take over, but we'll see what happens when this ugly scenario plays itself out.

[shokhead]

It will be very interesting because both sides have their ace in the hole that they can use to make a play for market share. HD-DVD has the two-sided flipper disc format that they can use to issue dual format DVD/HD-DVD releases. If the studios supporting HD-DVD shift their new releases to a hybrid DVD/HD-DVD format (highly doubtful they will considering the greed involved), then they can potentially flood the market with HD-DVD discs before Blu-ray even hits the stores.

Meanwhile, Blu-ray will be included with the upcoming Playstation 3, which means potentially millions of Blu-ray players in people's homes, even those without HDTVs. The PS3 factor will also likely drive player prices down, because video game consoles won't sell if they're outrageously expensive and most of the revenue comes from the games anyway. A lot of people used PS2 consoles as their primary DVD player when it first came out, and it could be a similar situation here. Problem with Blu-ray is that they might have millions of PS3 consoles seeding the market, but the need for retailers to maintain dual inventories with their discs might mean very few stores where consumers can find Blu-ray discs. As a side note, the PS3 will also include SACD, an indication that SACD might be a standard part of Blu-ray.

PS3 to offer Dual disc, CD, SACD, and BlueRay playback

But, so long as the studios themselves remain divided evenly, neither format will gain the upper hand for a long time. Studios breaking ranks and issuing discs in both formats (not likely) might free up enough space for one format to eventually take over, but we'll see what happens when this ugly scenario plays itself out.

Gee,does this sound like DVD-A/SACD?

[kexodusc]

Gee,does this sound like DVD-A/SACD?

Not at all. There's far more versatility with the HD formats than with DVD-A/SACD. Music, HD video, and gaming applications, as well as PC storage. Over 4 times the opportunity here.
It's extremely doubtful that one won't emerge as a result of tapping into a few of these potential markets.

[shokhead]

Not format but hype,next great thing,cant miss. They are saying the same type stuff as they did with DVD-A and SACD.