Need to decide this week -- Please Help!

[Supamike]

Hello everyone... short time lurker, first time poster.

Here's the quick and skinny... I'm not an audiophile, but I do appreciate good sound. I previously had my dvd player running through a bookshelf stereo system just to get better sound from movies and cd's. It was sufficient for my living room -- not great, but better than plain old tv speakers.

Anyhow, the stereo went on the fritz. I am now looking to replace it with an entry-to-mid level receiver and speakers. I really can't spend more than $550 right now, but I want something that is going to give me good sound for the $$, some bells and whistles, and maybe has room to grow a little down the road. As noted, I have a decent DVD player (Toshiba), so I don't need an HTIB with that built in. Also don't want something that is going to be a doorstop if one component fails.

I've researched pretty extensively, and have read reviews out the wazoo. I believe I have narrowed my choices to the following systems:

>> Onkyo HT-S780 (includes Onkyo SKS-HT530 speakers)

The Onkyo HT-S780 is an entry level receiver/speaker set. Tons of glowing reviews. Highly recommended by CNet, Circuit City, Crutchfield, Amazon, others. Lots of good features, including 7.1, lots of inputs, etc. Butt-ugly speakers. Can purchase at Crutchfield w/free shipping and no-tax for $429, which leaves me a few bones for speaker stands.

>> Sony STR-DE898. This is a stand-alone receiver, but is on "sale" this week with JBL SCS180.6 speakers as part of a package at Best Buy for $499 +tax.

>> Pioneer VSX-815-K BB also has this receiver on sale, paired in a package with the JBL's above for $469 +tax. It and the Sony are 7.1/700w, but the JBL's are only a 5-speaker package.

I'm basically looking for feedback from "those in the know". I've heard nothing but great things about Onkyo's receivers, and CNet says the reciever in this system is major bang-for-the-buck, but have heard their speakers are so-so. And again, they are kind of ugly.

The rep at Crutchfield told me the Sony is a better receiver, but of course they work on commission and it costs more. I've not read many good things here about Sony's receivers. Pioneer seems to be a toss-up.

Please advise... I have a week! And if anyone has any better ideas (short of spending another $100), my ears are open.

Thanks in advance!

[paul_pci]

What we recommend for most people in your situation is to consider building a good system slowly instead of throwing down all your money for everything at once that, in your budget range, would amount to unfortunate compromises. So, you can take your current budget and split it between an entry level receiver and stereo speakers and then later add on a matching center channel, rear speakers, and a sub as your savings allow. That way, by the time you're finished building your system, it's one you've really thought through and worked hard to find the best sound and you'll be much happier with it.

[drseid]

Unfortunately, as Paul said, all of those systems will have huge compromises... At your budget level, I would recommend starting off with just the receiver and the front two speakers. Even for that, the budget is *very* tight, IMO.

Sure, you can move forward with a full 7.1 system at your price point (as evidenced by your own research), but I think you may find that in a year or so, you will be starting all over again, as you probably will not be satisfied with the results (the speakers, in particular). Also please keep in mind that 7.1 is not the be all/end all that you may believe it is. 5.1 is just as good if not better in many rooms, and old fashioned 2 channel should not be dismissed as an alternative as well (at least until you can afford the other speakers for the 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 system).

---Dave

[learner]

I got the Athena Micra 6 and the Pioneer VSX-815 for just a little less than $560. You just have to search for the best prices on the web. I dont have any experience with the JBL's you suggested but I know the Micra's are very highly regarded. Havnt hooked mine up yet because I am moving in February or I would give you a review. I am not computer literate or I would give you the link to some reviews but I will suggest you go to Audioholics.com and check out their under $1000 system recomendation which includes the both the Pioneer and the Athena's.

I will tell you that what the others have said is true. Now that I have started reading all of these forums and gotten hooked I already wish I had could upgrade. Might want to doa as they say and build it slowly. I am already figuring how to improve without a divorce. LOL

[Supamike]

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone... it is good feedback and is something I have thought about. I understand my budget is pretty tight, so my options are somewhat limited. This is so complex. I do understand the reasoning for the receiver/speakers suggestion, though. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? lol. Of course, if my wife has anything to say about it, it won't be built in 2 years, either. haha!

To add to the question, then... if I were to consider an "entry level" receiver and just the stereo speakers, what is a good "entry level"? For example, CNet compared the receiver in the Onkyo package to the Onkyo TX-SR503 receiver ($299 at Crutchfield), which they called "one of the best budget receivers CNET has seen this year." Is that entry-level? Or is there another brand I should consider heavily? I know everyone is going to have their pet brands, so please be objective. Let's say I have $600 to spend right now, for a receiver and two speakers. Is there a reason I should skip Sony? Is Pioneer a good brand? Is Onkyo as good as everyone says? I can scour for prices, but as a general range, what is better than those listed above at the entry level?

[GMichael]

There are many good entry level receivers. The TX-SR503 is as good as any of them IMO. These speakers would sound fine with it. http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-.../KEFKHT1005BLK

You can run your system as 5.1 for now and then upgrade the front two mains with larger KEF speakers later. This would give you a 7.1 system altogether.

There are many KEF's that would work well with this system.

http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-...egory/SpkFloor

[drseid]

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone... it is good feedback and is something I have thought about. I understand my budget is pretty tight, so my options are somewhat limited. This is so complex. I do understand the reasoning for the receiver/speakers suggestion, though. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? lol. Of course, if my wife has anything to say about it, it won't be built in 2 years, either. haha!

To add to the question, then... if I were to consider an "entry level" receiver and just the stereo speakers, what is a good "entry level"? For example, CNet compared the receiver in the Onkyo package to the Onkyo TX-SR503 receiver ($299 at Crutchfield), which they called "one of the best budget receivers CNET has seen this year." Is that entry-level? Or is there another brand I should consider heavily? I know everyone is going to have their pet brands, so please be objective. Let's say I have $600 to spend right now, for a receiver and two speakers. Is there a reason I should skip Sony? Is Pioneer a good brand? Is Onkyo as good as everyone says? I can scour for prices, but as a general range, what is better than those listed above at the entry level?

The Onkyo you mention is fine as an entry-level receiver, IMO. A good pairing for a couple speakers would be the Rega R-1s... They normally have an MSRP of $500/pr. new, but I saw a new pair on Audiogon.com for $325/pr. Just for disclosure purposes, I am not the seller, and have no ties to him/her....

---Dave

[Supamike]

I've never heard of Kef... is that a good brand? I'm also a little skeptical of used equipment. I know it makes sense on a budget and most people take good care of their stuff, but I've had mixed luck with used stuff in the past and enjoy the comfort of a warranty.

Keeping the Onkyo brand in mind and maybe the Pioneer, and saying I start with just a 2.1 system and add to it as I can afford to, what about the Bose 201 Servies V ($198 at Crutchfield w/purchase of a receiver) or 301 Series V speakers ($298)? What about Klipsch speakers?

[drseid]

Just for the record, the Rega R-1s on Audiogon are new speakers.

---Dave

[GMichael]

I've never heard of Kef... is that a good brand? I'm also a little skeptical of used equipment. I know it makes sense on a budget and most people take good care of their stuff, but I've had mixed luck with used stuff in the past and enjoy the comfort of a warranty.

Keeping the Onkyo brand in mind and maybe the Pioneer, and saying I start with just a 2.1 system and add to it as I can afford to, what about the Bose 201 Servies V ($198 at Crutchfield w/purchase of a receiver) or 301 Series V speakers ($298)? What about Klipsch speakers?

KEF makes very good speakers. I know that they are not as well known by the general public the way Bose are, but they are much better speakers. There were a few new ones in that link too.

[Supamike]

Dave, thanks for the info on the Rega's.

To add to my confusion... if I look into the 2.1 system (decent entry-level receiver + speakers) and add to it as I can afford to, which I think is a very valid suggestion, should I look at bookshelf speakers or floor speakers? What are the pros/cons to each (other than obvious size). I've read reviews on the Klipsch RB-15 (MSRP$ 299/pr) and the Axiom M3Ti (MSRP $ 275/pr), and both sounds like a possibly good place to start (see "Battle of the Bookshelfs"). How do speakers like that compare to say the ones I listed from Bose as a "piece" of a home theatre system?

[L.J.]

Dave, thanks for the info on the Rega's.

To add to my confusion... if I look into the 2.1 system (decent entry-level receiver + speakers) and add to it as I can afford to, which I think is a very valid suggestion, should I look at bookshelf speakers or floor speakers? What are the pros/cons to each (other than obvious size). I've read reviews on the Klipsch RB-15 (MSRP$ 299/pr) and the Axiom M3Ti (MSRP $ 275/pr), and both sounds like a possibly good place to start (see "Battle of the Bookshelfs"). How do speakers like that compare to say the ones I listed from Bose as a "piece" of a home theatre system?

Yes, build slowly. With a total budget of $550, I wouldn't think about towers. As far as bookshelves are concerned, your best bet is to go out and listen to some in your price range. You could always use them as surrounds later.

I believe that Pioneer has a full set of preouts and auto setup, a slight advantage over the Onkyo.

Read this thread for some more info on bookshelves vs towers.

[axelsrd]

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone... it is good feedback and is something I have thought about. I understand my budget is pretty tight, so my options are somewhat limited. This is so complex. I do understand the reasoning for the receiver/speakers suggestion, though. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? lol. Of course, if my wife has anything to say about it, it won't be built in 2 years, either. haha!

To add to the question, then... if I were to consider an "entry level" receiver and just the stereo speakers, what is a good "entry level"? For example, CNet compared the receiver in the Onkyo package to the Onkyo TX-SR503 receiver ($299 at Crutchfield), which they called "one of the best budget receivers CNET has seen this year." Is that entry-level? Or is there another brand I should consider heavily? I know everyone is going to have their pet brands, so please be objective. Let's say I have $600 to spend right now, for a receiver and two speakers. Is there a reason I should skip Sony? Is Pioneer a good brand? Is Onkyo as good as everyone says? I can scour for prices, but as a general range, what is better than those listed above at the entry level?

The Onkyo 503 is a fine entry level receiver. As far as speakers, KEF is a great speaker. You might want to also look at Paradigm Mini-Monitors (approx. $300-$350). I got mine on e-Bay two years ago and love them. I used them for fronts until I saved up for a pair of Monitor 7's and moved the Mini's to the rear. I also bought a pair of Klipsch RB-35's on eBay for $350 that I use for my 2 channel set up. My wife thinks I am crazy. When I ask her why she needs so many cameras, she says the same reason I need so many speakers...hahaha.

But anyway, you need to get the Onkyo and you now have a couple of great ideas for speakers. But whatever you do, please, stay away from BOSE. YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY for very long.

[Eric Z]

Bose are really overpriced, so stay away from them (as axelsrd said). I like his idea of buying some fronts and then eventually using them for rear speakers.

If you really want a nice sounding set-up, then you'll definitely want to wait and build your budget a bit. There's nothing worse then jumping the gun and then being unhappy later. It took me about 2 years to build my first HT- nothing too great, but good enough for me. Paradigm has some good speakers with a great range in prices. Klipsch are good as well. Many people say as long as you stick with a speaker company that specializes in speakers, you should be good. Here are some brands to look at: Mirage, Klipsch, Definitive Technology, Athena, JBL, Infinity, Paradigm, Energy, B&W, etc. Of course there are plenty more- those just came to the top of my head.

Also, I saw you wrote starting with a 2.1 system. Your budget barely allows for a decent 2.0 system- a decent sub (the 0.1) will alone run you at least $400.

Here's a breakdown of my interpretation of entry level prices:
Receiver: $300-$400
Front speakers: $300-$400
Center channel: $200-$300
Surrounds: $200-$300
Subwoofer: $350-$500

Of course some may think differently, but I think you can get a really good set-up for those prices. Start with a decent receiver and front speakers. Ideally, buy the center channel at the same time of the fronts because those must match for timbre reasons. I didn't do that and then my Mirage speakers were discontinued, so I had a challenging time finding the center channel (eventually found it on Ebay).

Maybe you can just deal with the TV speakers for now and save up for a little while. Also, what's the rush? Just really want the new set-up really bad?

Surprisingly, the Onkyo HTIB 780 isn't too bad for the money. Some people here will disagree because they want excellent sound in their HT. My brother bought the Onkyo 760 because he doesn't want to spend $1K+ on his HT- he likes good sound, but can't justify spending that much. Now, does my HT sound better than his? Yes! However, it was also 3 times as expensive.

It all depends on your budget and feeling about superior sound. If you just want okay or decent sound, go with something cheap. If you want to turn this into a hobby and you're a HT enthusiast, start saving!

Man, sorry for the rambling- hopefully it makes some sense, haha.

[L.J.]

Man, sorry for the rambling- hopefully it makes some sense, haha.

Good advice Eric. I like the way you broke that down.

[Supamike]

That is good advice... thanks!

Maybe you can just deal with the TV speakers for now and save up for a little while. Also, what's the rush? Just really want the new set-up really bad?

Although that probably won't work, I *might* be able to limp along with my old Sony bookshelf stereo for a little while until I can save some more $$. The problem is that the CD player on that stereo is broken, and one of the speakers is starting to short out or something. I have to shake it to keep it working. It might just be the wires, but my wife doesn't know that (wink). Point is, my DVD player is also my CD player.

Initially, I really had my mind set on the Onkyo 780 system, but I wanted to post here to get some honest feedback. It didn't help that the Onkyo speakers were so ugly. So far you guys have been great, and any additional input is bonus. After reading the posts above, now my mind is leaning towards an entry-level receiver and two decent bookshelf speakers, and adding from there. I am considering the Onkyo 503 and the Axiom M3ti speakers.

However... I can't afford a sub right now, and Eric now has me thinking I need to also buy a matching center speaker now. lol! I can't win... perhaps I should just wait until I have saved $800-1000, but that would take me another 6 months to a year.

Honestly, I'm not an "audiophile", and don't have a ton of money to drop -- now or in 3 years. I DO appreciate good sound, though. Something that gets me started and can be improved upon is a bonus. Something that isn't going to be obsolete in 2 years is even better. I am interested most in good value, good sound, good looks, good build, and good warranty -- though not necessarily in that order.

[Supamike]

Here's a thought... if I could make my existing speakers suffice with one of the below receivers for a bit, would that be a smart move? I'll check tonight and see if I can identify anything about the old bookshelf speakers I have -- they are plenty "loud", but nothing special. However, if they were usable, that would allow me to save for better speakers. One thing I noticed is that the Onkyo 503 only has 75w per channel output, which seems kind of low.

I saw today that Best Buy has the Pioneer VSX-1015TX (840W 7.1-Ch. THX-Certified) on sale right now for $424.99. Is that a good deal? Are there better deals to be found (on new receivers)? I also found the Yamaha RX-V757 at etronics.com for the same $424 price.

I'm not trying to wear you folks out, but just explore all my options. One thing I haven't heard much on is how the brands of Onkyo and Pioneer stack up. I checked out Denon, but there weren't any I could touch in the $500 price range. I'm pretty sure that, long range, I can't really afford to spend more than that on the receiver and still build a good set of speakers (that is, if I want to sleep in the bed). lol!

[L.J.]

There is no such thing as the best. If that was so, everyone would have that same brand. Look at Yamaha, Onkyo, HK, Marantz and Pioneer Elite. You should find plent of units in your price range and they're all gonna offer about the same. You need to look at things such as warranty, number of in/outs, zones, conversion and switching, remote, ease of setup(auto setup) and so on.

Or stick with your orginal plan of getting the 503 or 815 and you'll already have some money saved towards getting some speakers. By spending $100 more on a AVR your only gonna gain more bells and whistles.

Or just sit back and wait a little while longer, that way you can save some more, and that will give you more time to research some units and listen to some speakers.

Or you can send your money to me and then you won't have anything to stress about anymore. :0)

[Supamike]

There is no such thing as the best. If that was so, everyone would have that same brand.

Understood... that sure would make it easier, though, wouldn't it?

I checked my old speakers tonight... both still play with decent sound and clarity for their age (about 10 years or so), so I'm sure it's the wire on the one. They are 50w (each), 6ohm, Sony bookshelf speakers.

So one final question... at the sale prices above, are either of the two receivers above (the Pioneer VSX-1015TX or the Yamaha RX-V757) something I should take special note of and consider pairing with my old bookshelves for a few months until I drum up the extra fundage to start buying good speakers? Again... I don't anticipate ever spending more than $500 on the receiver, so that would be at my price point. Does anyone have any experience with those? The Pioneer intrigues me because it is THX certified, and that's the best price I've seen on any THX certified receiver.

Thanks again to everyone for their help thus far... I've learned a lot and have a much better vision of what I want to accomplish!

[thekid]

Understood... that sure would make it easier, though, wouldn't it?

I checked my old speakers tonight... both still play with decent sound and clarity for their age (about 10 years or so), so I'm sure it's the wire on the one. They are 50w (each), 6ohm, Sony bookshelf speakers.

So one final question... at the sale prices above, are either of the two receivers above (the Pioneer VSX-1015TX or the Yamaha RX-V757) something I should take special note of and consider pairing with my old bookshelves for a few months until I drum up the extra fundage to start buying good speakers? Again... I don't anticipate ever spending more than $500 on the receiver, so that would be at my price point. Does anyone have any experience with those? The Pioneer intrigues me because it is THX certified, and that's the best price I've seen on any THX certified receiver.

Thanks again to everyone for their help thus far... I've learned a lot and have a much better vision of what I want to accomplish!

At the risk of sounding like the resident shill for Pioneer.......
If price is a major consideration without sacrificing quality/features look strongly at the 815. You can look on this site for my review and a couple of links that review it. I have not heard the 1015 but if soundwise it is in the ballpark of the 815 you will be very happy to have THX certified reciver for less than $500.

As for Bose you will not see much love for them here but even some the most ardent Bose critics give a tip of the hat now and then to the 301's. I have a Bose HT set-up that cost me about $550 and suits my taste for now until money is less a factor. For most the criticism of Bose centers around their marketing and price relative to other brands so if you can get them at a decent discount that eliminates half of the criticism.

As mentioned by others when it talking about speakers it often comes down to personal listening choices, so if possible cut yourself some slack on the speakers and listen to as many as possible. If you get a good receiver now you might be surprised what it does to your current speakers and find that you can live with them until you find the speaker of choice.

[Eric Z]

The Pioneer 1015 and Yamaha 757 are great receivers, but you may not need all that they provide. I have the Yamaha 657 (one step below the 757) and I am very very happy with it. I like LJ's point about maybe you just sticking with your original receiver plan and saving $100 to put that toward some speakers. You can even look at the Yamaha 557 (same as the Yamaha 5850)- this one I think is at the same level as the Pioneer 815 and Onkyo 503. You might even be able to get away with the 457 (5840).

I like your idea of getting a receiver first and 'dealing' with your speakers right now.

If you decide to pick up front speakers, you don't have to get a center channel right away- it might just be challenging to get a matching one if you wait a while and the line is discontinued. Axiom and Athena have some good entry level speakers for fairly cheap.

Let us know what other questions you have. I don't know tons about HT equipment, but I was in a similar boat as you 4 years ago.

[axelsrd]

Understood... that sure would make it easier, though, wouldn't it?

I checked my old speakers tonight... both still play with decent sound and clarity for their age (about 10 years or so), so I'm sure it's the wire on the one. They are 50w (each), 6ohm, Sony bookshelf speakers.

So one final question... at the sale prices above, are either of the two receivers above (the Pioneer VSX-1015TX or the Yamaha RX-V757) something I should take special note of and consider pairing with my old bookshelves for a few months until I drum up the extra fundage to start buying good speakers? Again... I don't anticipate ever spending more than $500 on the receiver, so that would be at my price point. Does anyone have any experience with those? The Pioneer intrigues me because it is THX certified, and that's the best price I've seen on any THX certified receiver.

Thanks again to everyone for their help thus far... I've learned a lot and have a much better vision of what I want to accomplish!

OK Mike, you are starting to wander a bit here. You are getting off track. Let's get back to your original post. $500 for receiver and speakers. Option 1, If that is your budget, then the Onkyo HT-S780 package is probably the way to go. Option 2, If you want to slowly build a system over time then I would suggest the Onkyo 503 receiver ($300) and maybe go to best buy and get a pair of JBL E20 bookshelfs ($180) and a JBL CH25 Center ($180 black). This may be a tad over your budget right now but it is a good starting point. You can save up for another pair of E20's for the rear and add a sub later. I suspect you may end up getting the sub before you get the rears though. That is the way it usually ends up.

You don't need to start looking at THX receivers. I have the money to buy one but don't have one because in my opinion, it's just a gimmic put out by Lucasfilms. By that I am not saying you shouldn't buy Pioneer, I am just saying you don't need THX. I am sure others will scream at me for saying this but all I am trying to do is get you focused back on your original problem and that is to find something you can enjoy within your price range.

Randy

[L.J.]

Simply put, do it right the first tme. First of all, the weakest link of that HTIB is gonna be the speakers. Why settle for less when a little patience can be very rewarding in the long run. Secondly, take your time to go out and audition some speakers as this is gonna make the biggest difference in sound. Not a good idea to just run out and spend your money without taking the time meet your needs(only you know the answer to that). Not a good idea to buy JBL or any other speaker your told to buy without listening to them and comparing them to other speakers yourself. I got two friends with a HTIB, guess what, they both want to upgrade. I had a HTIB and guess what, I went to someones house that was PATIENT, and realized my system sucked. Money in the garbage if you ask me. No one says you gotta spend $5k to acheive a sound that makes YOU happy, but with a little patience, you can get more for your money. Bang for your buck, buddy.

[axelsrd]

Simply put, do it right the first tme. First of all, the weakest link of that HTIB is gonna be the speakers. Why settle for less when a little patience can be very rewarding in the long run. Secondly, take your time to go out and audition some speakers as this is gonna make the biggest difference in sound. Not a good idea to just run out and spend your money without taking the time meet your needs(only you know the answer to that). Not a good idea to buy JBL or any other speaker your told to buy without listening to them and comparing them to other speakers yourself. I got two friends with a HTIB, guess what, they both want to upgrade. I had a HTIB and guess what, I went to someones house that was PATIENT, and realized my system sucked. Money in the garbage if you ask me. No one says you gotta spend $5k to acheive a sound that makes YOU happy, but with a little patience, you can get more for your money. Bang for your buck, buddy.

LJ, I wasn't trying to imply that Mike SHOULD buy a HTIB or that he SHOULD buy JBL speakers. All I was trying to say/tell him was that he was limited to what he can get on a $500 budget. I think we all agree that the HTIB route would be the least attractive option because when he does decide to upgrade, he has to virtually start from scratch since all components would virtually have to be replaced. I also think we all agree that for his initial budget, that a receiver and a pair of front speakers is the best way to go because he can always add on to that later. I wasn't pushing JBL's, it was just a suggestion. There are many budget speakers out there that would work fine for him. and you are absolutely right, he should go listen to as many speakers as he can that fit into his budget.

[L.J.]

LJ, I wasn't trying to imply that Mike SHOULD buy a HTIB or that he SHOULD buy JBL speakers. All I was trying to say/tell him was that he was limited to what he can get on a $500 budget. I think we all agree that the HTIB route would be the least attractive option because when he does decide to upgrade, he has to virtually start from scratch since all components would virtually have to be replaced. I also think we all agree that for his initial budget, that a receiver and a pair of front speakers is the best way to go because he can always add on to that later. I wasn't pushing JBL's, it was just a suggestion. There are many budget speakers out there that would work fine for him. and you are absolutely right, he should go listen to as many speakers as he can that fit into his budget.

Axelsrd,

I guess I did come off a little foward there . I apologize. I'm a nice guy having a bad morning, on no breakfast. No hard feelings.


Mike,

One last comment. Best Buy and Circuit are not the ideal places to listen to speakers. Well mine isn't. No queit room, speakers well above your head, not to mention people walking around and background noise. If you have a Magnolia with your BB, or a mid/high end store in your area, its a totally different story. Nice leather chair in the middle of a quiet room, speakers at ear level and complete silence. I've had a few enjoyable listening sessions at Magnolia. Take your favorite cd with you, close your eyes and get a good listen. Home is the best place to audition, but that's not always possible.

Have fun shopping